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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

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I thought for awhile that a+J=T might not make it into the show but now I am a believer.

look at R+L=J.  There was a small number of hints in season 1 but then the show left out literally everything that hinted at it from books 2 and 3 (esp the house of the undying).  It wasn't until season FIVE that any real hints occurred and we don't get ToJ until next Sunday. 

Likewise, A+J=T will not be hinted at, apart from the dragons, until later (probably after R+L is fully confirmed).  However like some already pointed out the groundwork with Tywin was laid just as the groundwork with Ned was laid.  And Just like with R+L until s5, what we don't have are the clues for who Tyrions Dad actually is.  

I do wonder what the mechanics will be for any reveal.  Tyrion can dump some dragonlore on us, I suppose.  But if he already knows non-Targs can't ride dragons, how will he even dare to try?  I always assumed Barristan would tell Tyrion something to clue him in about Aerys and his mother having a "relationship", but he's dead.  Is it possible that Jaime or Cersei know something? They'd have only been children at the time - and did they even go to KL - but maybe...?  Otherwise I'm not sure.

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I think the interpretation of what happened with Tyrion in "Home" is entirely based on one's perspective.  If you're a believer in AJT, I can entirely see that as confirmatory.  However, if you're not, the way the sequence of events went out of its way to establish that Tyrion was merely trying to "make friends," then he goes and does so (and afterwards R and V couldn't give two shits about him once unchained) also makes sense.  Maybe that's what they were going for?  It's actually a pretty good way to keep up interest.  But, of course, that's probably giving D & D too much credit, as many here will surely point out

My own thoughts at first kinda went like this:  ok, you asked Missandei if she was "friends" with the dragons, then why didn't you bring her?  Oh, ok, you wanted to make friends with them yourself.  Hm, seemed pretty easy, but once it was clear you were intent on unchaining them that makes sense.  It's either depicting "dragons are smart," which fits with the narrative of the (show) story, or you have some special bond, which does not fit the narrative of the show story.  (You = Tyrion).

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2 hours ago, Dofs said:

I really don't think that the show writers cared even one bit about BBP and his arc. They have cut him as an unneeded character like many others, they wouldn't think about adapting such a minor thing as the dragons being ok with him. Tyrion managing to free the dragons easily like that is either D&D showing how knowledgeable and pro he or something else but definitely not adapting BBP in him. I personally believe it's nothing more than D&D giving Tyrion something to do and all that "dragons are more intelligent than some men talk" is just a way to allow Tyrion to free the dragons safely. If it's not and if it was really Targaryen blood in him, then Tyrion was kinda mistaken and since when show Tyrion is wrong about anything?

The problem is that it's not show canon that dragons are nice to people with Targ blood. Rather, it's now show canon that dragons do not attack their friends. All Tyrion needed to do was establish himself as a friend, which he managed, not through dragon blood, but through talking to them nicely and not making any sudden movements.

If Team Dany flips out next episode about how Tyrion did something impossible, it will be one thing, but that seems unlikely.

1 hour ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

There's no proof so far that show!Missandei doesn't have Valyrian blood. 

I'm more convinced than ever that AJT is going to be confirmed and a bunch of people are going to lose their minds over the idea that it supposedly "ruins" the relationship of Tyrion and Tywin instead of adding complexity to it. 

I love a fandom meltdown as much as the next person (the past 24 hour fandom freakout over Jon Snow has been a lot of fun), AND I also happen to agree that the Tywin/Tyrion relationship would be enhanced by a Targ reveal...BUT I wasn't convinced of Tyrion's Targness by anything I saw in this episode. If the whole thing is dropped next episode, then I expect we're meant to chalk up Tyrion's skill with dragons to his successful application of dragon lore rather than any innate gift.

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^^ Well the great thing is that Show Tyrion follows his book counterpart storyline fairly closely.  Which is th e main reason I think a lot of us consider this a huge hint towards AJT in the books.  Afterall Show canon includes the powers of telepathy, teleportation, defiance of gravity and cell phones as far as I can tell.  So it really is not important whether valyrian blood has or has not been mentioned as an HBO requirement to ride dragons.  What's important is Tyrion clearly being accepted by the dragons when meeting them for the first time sans Dany.

In the WoW sample chapter we see Viserion retreat from battle, possibly injured, this is viewed by Tyrion minutes before he picks up the white dragon cyvasse piece covered in blood and declares his allegiance to Dany.

So ipso facto, the show follows Tyrions story as close as the show follows anyones story= book Tyrion being able to approach the dragons without Dany and no harm come to him.  And Book Tyrion has already established why the dragons were fond of BBP, the only other person they were overly fond of besides Dany (which was actually mentioned by Dany specifically).  It was because he had dragon blood, 2 Targ grandparents (or great-grandparents) on one side.  This is all clearly documented and explained in DwD.  GRRM would never have put all that in the book if it werent a majorly important point.  So, Show Tyrion being able to approach the dragons easily in this way = book Tyrion being able to do it = He is the bastard of Aerys.

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13 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I thought for awhile that a+J=T might not make it into the show but now I am a believer.

look at R+L=J.  There was a small number of hints in season 1 but then the show left out literally everything that hinted at it from books 2 and 3 (esp the house of the undying).  It wasn't until season FIVE that any real hints occurred and we don't get ToJ until next Sunday. 

Likewise, A+J=T will not be hinted at, apart from the dragons, until later (probably after R+L is fully confirmed).  However like some already pointed out the groundwork with Tywin was laid just as the groundwork with Ned was laid.  And Just like with R+L until s5, what we don't have are the clues for who Tyrions Dad actually is.  

I do wonder what the mechanics will be for any reveal.  Tyrion can dump some dragonlore on us, I suppose.  But if he already knows non-Targs can't ride dragons, how will he even dare to try?  I always assumed Barristan would tell Tyrion something to clue him in about Aerys and his mother having a "relationship", but he's dead.  Is it possible that Jaime or Cersei know something? They'd have only been children at the time - and did they even go to KL - but maybe...?  Otherwise I'm not sure.

And Suzanna Stormborn [my multiquote button doesn't work!] said:

The thing is, I could give a fig whether or not Tyrion is announced as Aerys' bastard on the show.  D&D in all their brilliance might agree with many posters that 2 of the main characters having unknown dragon blood might be a bit redundant and chose to make the focus on Jon and not Tyrion.  That's fine if they want to do that.  What I am interested in, is that he is controlling a dragon and possibly riding one soon.  On the show there has been almost zero mention of valyrian dragonlords and bonding and dragon blood is needed to ride, etc etc.  So If the show does not stick to the same laws as the book in that respect.....whatever, it's fine, the show will butcher what it wants to butcher.  However him becoming a dragon rider on the show, is one of the strongest hints we AJT'ers could possibly add to the list of hints, history and foreshadowing that altogether prove AJT is true.

 

For me Tyrion's scene on the show clearly supports A+J=T, for the books at least (so glad we have a forum where we can speculate between show and book), but not necessarily for the show. Two things occur to me about a possible reveal on the show:

1. If they want to, they can leave A+J=T out of the show, based on what they have already left out, as SS mentioned above, concerning who can ride dragons and why. They've established on the show that the connection with the dragons is mystical, and depends on state of mind, more than anything else, and Dany and Tyrion's success can be attributed to their love for the dragons.

However:

2. For the same reason, connection with dragons being so emotional and intuitive, the most likely person to figure out Tyrion's Targ blood is now Dany.

I thought it would be Varys on the show, but he has shown no knowledge of A+J=T so far, and seemed unmoved by Tyrion's interaction with the dragons, which I would have expected if Varys had long-held suspicions about Aerys and Joanna. It's Dany who will understand Tyrion's ability to connect with he dragons, since she is the only other person who has had that experience, and she might then suspect he is a Targ based on other clues, that Tyrion could provide, about the things Tywin said to him. I think that makes good TV logic (not being judgy, but it is different that lit) and it would allow for another great scene between them.

So that's my bold prediction: if the show goes with A+J=T, then Dany will figure it out. I hope they reveal it, but if they don't it might increase the excitement of reading the eventual novels! And as I said above, the show has reinforced the likelihood of the theory in the books.

[edited to add SS quote]

 

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Bloodraven and Bran could also be the ones to reveal A+J=T. It's not clear to me exactly why Bloodraven has been showing Bran the past, how does that help with the coming war? But now it seems like he's working up to showing Bran who Jon's parents are. So it stands to reason he might then show him the truth about Tyrion's parents, and show him Daenerys and her dragons. Then he's shown Bran that these are the three heads of the dragon who Bran will need to convince to mount up on dragons and fight the Others. 

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A few observations about "Tyrion the dragonwhisperer":

-the events in this episode do seem to point at Tyrion gaining a dragon for himself. Just as we see the dragons and him acting friendly, he tells the audience book-dialogue about how he always wanted badly to have his own dragon. Which in turn, is a strong hint that A+J=T would be true in the books.

-Allthough no Targaryen connection was hinted in this scene, Tyrion's motivation about how the dragons can recognise "friends" seems a bit suspect. If Missandei was a proven "friend" of the dragons, logically she would have been one of the prime candidates to go, unlike Tyrion. This all the more so because Missandei probably first approached the dragons with Dany present (and Dany's behaviour would be a clear pointer to the dragons for the "friend-or-foe-or-food" indicator), a luxury which Tyrion did not have as he approached as a stranger. In spite of his confident words, Tyrion was afraid during the approach and afterwards seemed to view his own actions as crazely risky.

-Varys did have a rather perplexed look on his face when Tyrion returned. I'm curious to see his reaction in their next scene.

I think the buildup towards the reveal has started.

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22 hours ago, Fisch said:

That is...a very short list.

The show still hasn't seen fit to include anything meaningful about Joanna's relationship with Aerys, or Tywin's relationship with Aerys, or really anything to do with Aerys outside what directly pertains to Robert's Rebellion or his death. If A+J does equal T, then it's hard for me to imagine that, dallying as they have, the showrunners can sell it as a credible reveal. IMO, it'll feel for many viewers as something that came out of nowhere, was a twist for the sake of a twist, and is ultimately cheap. And that may taint the reveal when it happens in the books, however much better it was plotted.

The bolded is the bread and butter of the show which already has a number of incidents that can be described as "a twist just for the sake of a twist" and "cheap shock". I don't expect the show to go in-depth with the relationship of Aerys and Joanna - maybe someone (Varys?) provides some exposition. Heck, the main series thus far does not even do that since all of the meaningful stuff concerning A&J comes from TWoIaF. The less buildup/foreshadowing the greater the shock value, which is right up the shows alley.

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2 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

The bolded is the bread and butter of the show which already has a number of incidents that can be described as "a twist just for the sake of a twist" and "cheap shock". I don't expect the show to include anything meaningful concerning Aerys and Joanna. Heck, the main series does not even do that since all of the meaningful stuff concerning A&J comes from TWoIaF. The less buildup/foreshadowing the greater the shock value, which is right up the shows alley.

Gods...for real dude.

I mean wtf happened in that last episode? 'Yara' now has to go to a Kingsmoot against who exactly? Her and Aeron obviously had no idea Euron was even at the Iron Islands.  SO who exactly is she up against at this Kingsmoot? And can they really think the short explanation of 'It's the law' is enough to even remotely explain what is going on.  The whole thing about a kingsmoot is that it rarely rarely happens, and Aeron is the one who calls for it, so what is he talking about??  Also why have D&D never ever mentioned Euron before? And why was he so much younger (like 30 years) than Balon, and why couldn't he have an eyepatch?

 

I wouldnt be surprised if they just casually never really mention the fact that Jon and Dany are in the same family.  Like I bet they never really explain the Targ family tree or that Rhaegar is the Mad King's son.  They will leave it to us book readers to explain to our Unsullied friends.

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I'm not convinced that Varys isn't still going to give Tyrion some information that could give more hints to the AJT reveal. I think one of the reasons he's sitting on this info is because he doesn't know for sure, he only has suspicions based on whispers that he's heard. I think Tyrion accomplishing that with the dragons has probably made a few things snap into focus for him. 

I agree that the reveal is coming soon. I'm not sure if we're more likely to get it through Bran or Varys or possibly even Jaime and Cersei but right now my suspicion is that the audience might connect the dots before Tyrion does. 

I'm thinking that Jaime and Cersei could hear a rumor that Tyrion is alive in the east and that this could make them have another conversation about how Cersei was supposedly right about Tyrion all along. They could mention that Tywin was never sure that Tyrion was his just to give the audience a reminder that this was always a suspicion of Tywin's. Then we can have Tyrion get more info about blood magic from that red priestess who's been cast. Maybe she can tell that Tyrion has Valyrian and/or king's blood. 

The only reason I'm considering Bran getting a flashback is because he's the only character dealing with flashbacks. I don't really see any reason why he'd have a flashback about Aerys, Joanna, or any of the Lannisters really save a flashback to the day of his fall. 

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10 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Gods...for real dude.

I mean wtf happened in that last episode? 'Yara' now has to go to a Kingsmoot against who exactly? Her and Aeron obviously had no idea Euron was even at the Iron Islands.  SO who exactly is she up against at this Kingsmoot? And can they really think the short explanation of 'It's the law' is enough to even remotely explain what is going on.  The whole thing about a kingsmoot is that it rarely rarely happens, and Aeron is the one who calls for it, so what is he talking about??  Also why have D&D never ever mentioned Euron before? And why was he so much younger (like 30 years) than Balon, and why couldn't he have an eyepatch?

Heh, my wife who is an unsullied was a little confused over the whole thing and I had to give her the book explanation. I've long ago realised that GoT can be enjoyable if you watch it in a very superficial way. Trying to look too deeply at things leads to alot of head scratching.

 

Quote

I wouldnt be surprised if they just casually never really mention the fact that Jon and Dany are in the same family.  Like I bet they never really explain the Targ family tree or that Rhaegar is the Mad King's son.  They will leave it to us book readers to explain to our Unsullied friends.

Does the show actually need to spell this stuff out? I'm not clued up on the Targ family tree as it relates to show canon. I was under the impression that the show has established Dany as being Aerys' daughter and Rhaegar's sister. If that is indeed the case (I could be conflating show and book again), the viewers should be able to connect the dots.

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8 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Heh, my wife who is an unsullied was a little confused over the whole thing and I had to give her the book explanation. I've long ago realised that GoT can be enjoyable if you watch it in a very superficial way. Trying to look too deeply at things leads to alot of head scratching.

 

Does the show actually need to spell this stuff out? I'm not clued up on the Targ family tree as it relates to show canon. I was under the impression that the show has established Dany as being Aerys' daughter and Rhaegar's sister. If that is indeed the case (I could be conflating show and book again), the viewers should be able to connect the dots.

I agree on both points. The show may not lead up to events very clearly -- but the show sticks to the main plot points. Dany, Tyrion and Jon being blood relatives is likely to be an important plot point -- so they will go into it at some level. The explanation might not be as satisfying or thorough as the books -- but it will be there. 

And every once in a while the show will make some reference to Westeros or Targ history -- and it almost always is consistent with book canon. So they are trying from time to time to give some back story for the characters. But non-book readers would be hard pressed to really remember or fully understand the implications of these statements.

As D&D have said -- they are telling the same story -- just a different way. So the outcome for the main characters will be the same -- even if the way they get there is somewhat different. If Tyrion is a Targ bastard in the books, it is too central a plot point to be avoided on the show.

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13 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Heh, my wife who is an unsullied was a little confused over the whole thing and I had to give her the book explanation. I've long ago realised that GoT can be enjoyable if you watch it in a very superficial way. Trying to look too deeply at things leads to alot of head scratching.

 

Does the show actually need to spell this stuff out? I'm not clued up on the Targ family tree as it relates to show canon. I was under the impression that the show has established Dany as being Aerys' daughter and Rhaegar's sister. If that is indeed the case (I could be conflating show and book again), the viewers should be able to connect the dots.

I think Rhaegar was mentioned by name from Robert B and Jorah in season 1.  Do not recall him since then. Dany has basically never mentioned him either (sigh).  She said to Tyrion 'your brother who killed my father?" last season, but no Rhaegar lol.

 

They are going to have a hard time selling Jon as rhaegar and lyannas son.  I mean Jon (Kit Harrington the actor) has very dark brown/black hair right?  They established the thing about hair color on the show when Ned discovered Joff was not Robert's......So Rhaegar (in the upcoming flashbaskcs) will have the same hair color as Dany and Viserys.  And we just saw that Lyanna has (naturally) light brown and blonde ombre hair.  So where the shit did Jon's dark hair and eyes come from?

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11 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Heh, my wife who is an unsullied was a little confused over the whole thing and I had to give her the book explanation. I've long ago realised that GoT can be enjoyable if you watch it in a very superficial way. Trying to look too deeply at things leads to alot of head scratching.

 

Does the show actually need to spell this stuff out? I'm not clued up on the Targ family tree as it relates to show canon. I was under the impression that the show has established Dany as being Aerys' daughter and Rhaegar's sister. If that is indeed the case (I could be conflating show and book again), the viewers should be able to connect the dots.

As far as I know the only change the show has made to the Targaryen family tree was removing Jaehaerys II. So Aerys II was Egg's kid. It's still unclear why they did this, I suspect they just slipped up. They've also mentioned one or two made up kings, but it's not clear if they were supposed to be Targaryen kings.

I'm pretty sure there was a conversation between Barristan and Daenerys last season touching on her father's madness, but I wouldn't swear to it. Either way it's definitely been established that she's his daughter.

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47 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Gods...for real dude.

I mean wtf happened in that last episode? 'Yara' now has to go to a Kingsmoot against who exactly? Her and Aeron obviously had no idea Euron was even at the Iron Islands.  SO who exactly is she up against at this Kingsmoot? And can they really think the short explanation of 'It's the law' is enough to even remotely explain what is going on.  The whole thing about a kingsmoot is that it rarely rarely happens, and Aeron is the one who calls for it, so what is he talking about??  Also why have D&D never ever mentioned Euron before? And why was he so much younger (like 30 years) than Balon, and why couldn't he have an eyepatch?

 

I wouldnt be surprised if they just casually never really mention the fact that Jon and Dany are in the same family.  Like I bet they never really explain the Targ family tree or that Rhaegar is the Mad King's son.  They will leave it to us book readers to explain to our Unsullied friends.

LOL :P

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6 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

They are going to have a hard time selling Jon as rhaegar and lyannas son.  I mean Jon (Kit Harrington the actor) has very dark brown/black hair right?  They established the thing about hair color on the show when Ned discovered Joff was not Robert's......So Rhaegar (in the upcoming flashbaskcs) will have the same hair color as Dany and Viserys.  And we just saw that Lyanna has (naturally) light brown and blonde ombre hair.  So where the shit did Jon's dark hair and eyes come from?

Apparently the whole thing doesn't make sense using real world genetics. But anyway in-universe black hair does not always win out over lighter hair. Otherwise the paternity of Cersei's children would have been obvious to everybody. Jon Arryn discovered that historically the Baratheon black hair gene was always winning out over other hair colors, even when Baratheons married Lannisters. So it really shouldn't be a problem. Maybe the black hair skipped a generation or something. I doubt the show producers will worry about it. They seemed to give up dying Jaime's hair blonde after season one. 

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8 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I agree on both points. The show may not lead up to events very clearly -- but the show sticks to the main plot points. Dany, Tyrion and Jon being blood relatives is likely to be an important plot point -- so they will go into it at some level. The explanation might not be as satisfying or thorough as the books -- but it will be there.

Absolutely agree.  They have been setting up A+J=T since season 1.  Remember Jon and Tyrion traveling to the wall?  All the goading Tyrion kept giving Jon about being a bastard.  And "all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." Etc. etc.

Whenever Jon and Tyrion meet again I fully expect Tyrion to say, "turns out, I'm a bastard too."

 

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12 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

They are going to have a hard time selling Jon as rhaegar and lyannas son.  I mean Jon (Kit Harrington the actor) has very dark brown/black hair right?  They established the thing about hair color on the show when Ned discovered Joff was not Robert's......So Rhaegar (in the upcoming flashbaskcs) will have the same hair color as Dany and Viserys.  And we just saw that Lyanna has (naturally) light brown and blonde ombre hair.  So where the shit did Jon's dark hair and eyes come from?

I don't think that the showrunners are all that concerned with internal consistency. It's the end result that matters, hair colour be damned.

 

13 minutes ago, RumHam said:

As far as I know the only change the show has made to the Targaryen family tree was removing Jaehaerys II. So Aerys II was Egg's kid. It's still unclear why they did this, I suspect they just slipped up. They've also mentioned one or two made up kings, but it's not clear if they were supposed to be Targaryen kings.

I'm pretty sure there was a conversation between Barristan and Daenerys last season touching on her father's madness, but I wouldn't swear to it. Either way it's definitely been established that she's his daughter.

I'm also fairly sure that there was a conversation between Dany and Barristan about Rhaegar back in season 3 where Barristan says "your brother Rhaegar".

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55 minutes ago, RumHam said:

As far as I know the only change the show has made to the Targaryen family tree was removing Jaehaerys II. So Aerys II was Egg's kid. It's still unclear why they did this, I suspect they just slipped up. They've also mentioned one or two made up kings, but it's not clear if they were supposed to be Targaryen kings.

I'm pretty sure there was a conversation between Barristan and Daenerys last season touching on her father's madness, but I wouldn't swear to it. Either way it's definitely been established that she's his daughter.

I seem to recall having read an interview or something stating that, since Jaehaerys reigned for only three years, they chose to remove him as to make the connection between Aemon and Aerys II (and thus the other members of House Targaryen, like Daenerys and Viserys) more clear, by making Aemon Aerys's uncle.

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LOLZZZZZZ, this is so freaking hilarious. I am crying laughing

http://blacknerdproblems.com/game-of-thrones-recap-home/

 

"Basically everybody leaves because Melisandra just failed her last medical exam and Jon Snow ain’t moved a muscle since he gave Ollie the anime gasp when Ollie stabbed your boy in the heart. Even Davos leaves like, fuck, I chose the wrong week to stop drinking. But Ghost knows something is up when he rolls over and here go MUTAFUCKIN JON SNOW GASPING ON THE TABLE LIKE HE JUST CAME UP FOR ALL THE AIR. Take in all the Air Jon! Have some of my air Lord Commander, I ain’t trying to be greedy fam! I got some aquafina, some orange juice, pomade, whatever you need fam! Man, I ain’t been this happy to see a pretty White dude come back from the dead since Justin Timberlake droppedFuturesex/Lovesounds. What a time to be alive, people. What a time for Jon Snow to be alive! "

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