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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

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24 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

R+L=J So Starks are Daenerys extended family. If she discovered that would she care.

You don't think she would care the Jon is the son of her brother, Rhaegar? I think that Jon being Dany's nephew will come into play. Jon, of course, can be the bridge between Dany and the other Starks in terms of building a coalition to fight the War for the Dawn 2.0.

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7 minutes ago, disgustipated said:

If R+L=J and A+J=T are true, who has stronger claim? Bastard Jon, Bastard Tyrion, or Dany?

Definitely Dany as bastards have no claim at all unless legitimised. Although many believe that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

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17 minutes ago, disgustipated said:

 or is there some sort of polygamous element at play?

That's the theory, that Rhaegar felt he could revive the Targaryen practice of polygamy. Some have also speculated that he set Ellia aside somehow, though that seems very unlikely to me.

Many people think Jon being legitimate is the only explanation for the presence of the three kingsguard at the tower. Personally I think it's just as likely they were just following orders. Probably more likely, as it's kinda presumptive to assume Lyanna would have a son and that he would then be the king. Especially with Viserys named as Aerys's heir. 

Edit: of course it's not an either or situation, the kingsguard could have been just following orders in a situation where Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. That would make more sense to me than a situation where they themselves decide that Lyanna's unborn child must be their king. 

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18 minutes ago, disgustipated said:

Married?  What is the timelime with Elia being killed?  or is there some sort of polygamous element at play?

Welcome to the boards. :cheers:

Yes, polygamy is at play. Elia definitely was alive even after Rhaegar died (the death of Rhaegar at the Trident occurred prior to the Sack of KL where Elia died). The text includes a number of clues that support the conclusion that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married -- even though Rhaegar appears to have remained married to Elia at the same time.

The board is now up to version 160 in the R+L=J thread. If you want to search through the history of those threads, you will find pages upon pages upon pages of debate as to whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

If you want my personal thoughts from about two years ago, one of my first posts was an OP on this very topic. While my thought are a little different today than they were two years ago (and that OP was written prior to the release of TWOIAF, which altered some of the arguments a bit -- including the revelation regarding the Pact of Ice and Fire, which seems to be a little hint in favor of such a marriage), I think the OP holds up for the most part today. A link to that thread can be found here.

ETA: I noticed that RumHam :ninja:-ed me on this topic. RumHam and I have debated this topic for quite a while now, and I certainly don't want to start a debate again as there really is not much  new to say.  Just understand that while there is no definitive evidence either way, I remain fairly convinced that RumHam is mistaken and Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

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On 09/05/2016 at 10:54 PM, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

Is it odd that Varys hasn't said anything yet if he knows the rumors about Joanna? I admit that I was counting on Varys to help along with the reveal and am starting to suspect that this isn't going to happen. 

Does Varys know? Why would he know? Tyrion was born in 272 and Illyrio says Varys was recruited by the Mad King who did not trust his son, wife or hand. In 272 Rhaegar would 13. It seems much more likely Varys would have arrived in Westeros well after when the King became "mad" which wouldn't be for years, at least until after Duskendale in 277, closer to Robert's Rebellion anyway.

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14 minutes ago, disgustipated said:

Married?  What is the timelime with Elia being killed?  or is there some sort of polygamous element at play?

Polygamy. There has been much debate around this point in the R+L=J threads over in the book forum. We have examples of polygamous Targaryen marriages (Aenar, Aegon I, Maegor) but it is also mentioned that this practice was unusual. At the end of the day though, there is nothing in the published canon that expressly says polygamy is illegal and there is this interview:

Quote

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be).

The bolded portion: I take the fact that Martin believes he can still make up cases of polygamy post Maegor to mean that polygamy remains an option and is not outlawed.

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2 minutes ago, good girl said:

Does Varys know? Why would he know? Tyrion was born in 272 and Illyrio says Varys was recruited by the Mad King who did not trust his son, wife or hand. In 272 Rhaegar would 13. It seems much more likely Varys would have arrived in Westeros well after when the King became "mad" which wouldn't be for years, at least until after Duskendale in 277, closer to Robert's Rebellion anyway.

I think the working theory is that show-Varys is not book-Varys, and the books seem likely to use Barristan for such a reveal (i.e., AJT), but the show-Barristan is dead so Varys seems like the best substitute. With that analysis as background, the discussion has turned to whether Varys's reaction to Tyrion's exchange with the dragons supports or undermines that theory. So if Varys seems genuinely surprised that Tyrion was able to approach the dragons, Varys seems less likely to serve as the source of the reveal. I do not think, however, that Varys necessarily appeared that surprised, so the producers could just be waiting and not wanting to tip their hands.

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2 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I think the working theory is that show-Varys is not book-Varys, and the books seem likely to use Barristan for such a reveal (i.e., AJT), but the show-Barristan is dead so Varys seems like the best substitute. With that analysis as background, the discussion has turned to whether Varys's reaction to Tyrion's exchange with the dragons supports or undermines that theory. So if Varys seems genuinely surprised that Tyrion was able to approach the dragons, Varys seems less likely to serve as the source of the reveal. I do not think, however, that Varys necessarily appeared that surprised, so the producers could just be waiting and not wanting to tip their hands.

I personally don't think it is good story telling for someone to know and just blurt out a secret like that. There is also the question of whether Tyrion needs to know he is a Targaryen or whether George needs to give that a definitive answer. 

imo if Tyrion rides a dragon that is enough for me to conclude he is a Targ with the importance of Targaryen blood to dragon riders in the Princess and the Queen story.

Sometimes it is more satisfying when an author leaves something like that just under the surface. 

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7 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Polygamy. There has been much debate around this point in the R+L=J threads over in the book forum. We have examples of polygamous Targaryen marriages (Aenar, Aegon I, Maegor) but it is also mentioned that this practice was unusual. At the end of the day though, there is nothing in the published canon that expressly says polygamy is illegal and there is this interview:

The bolded portion: I take the fact that Martin believes he can still make up cases of polygamy post Maegor to mean that polygamy remains an option and is not outlawed.

It seems to me that he's talking about making up further historical examples, not indicating that polygamy would still be legal at the time of Robert's Rebellion. We know he hadn't fully fleshed out all that historical Targaryen stuff until two or three years ago when he started writing for the worldbook, novellas and Fire & Blood. I still don't think he's gotten to the later Targaryens. 

Even if you read that quote to indicate that polygamy is still legal, that was fifteen years ago. The man has changed his mind about a lot of things during that period. We know a few of the things he's changed (Rhaenyra was once much closer in age to Aegon II and married to a Strong) Even one or two things that were stated in the books have been retconned since Martin did all this fake history writing. (like that all of Egg's children were married.) 

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2 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It seems to me that he's talking about making up further historical examples, not indicating that polygamy would still be legal at the time of Robert's Rebellion. We know he hadn't fully fleshed out all that historical Targaryen stuff until two or three years ago when he started writing for the worldbook, novellas and Fire & Blood. I still don't think he's gotten to the later Targaryens. 

Even if you read that quote to indicate that polygamy is still legal, that was fifteen years ago. The man has changed his mind about a lot of things during that period. We know a few of the things he's changed (Rhaenyra was once much closer in age to Aegon II and married to a Strong) Even one or two things that were stated in the books have been retconned since Martin did all this fake history writing. (like that all of Egg's children were married.) 

He is talking about the possibility of polygamous marriages post Maegor "There might have been a few later instances as well". Post Maegor would include everything up to the current timeline. Add to that, there is simply nothing in the published canon that precludes polygamy as an option. All we know is that Jaehaerys codified the laws but we have no further details on that and that there are no known cases of polygamy (as yet) post Maegor, which isn't odd as it was considered an unusual practice. Certainly Martin could, and has, changed his mind but getting into whether he changed his mind with regards to this particular SSM is an excercise in futility.

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1 minute ago, good girl said:

I personally don't think it is good story telling for someone to know and just blurt out a secret like that. There is also the question of whether Tyrion needs to know he is a Targaryen or whether George needs to give that a definitive answer. 

imo if Tyrion rides a dragon that is enough for me to conclude he is a Targ with the importance of Targaryen blood to dragon riders in the Princess and the Queen story.

Sometimes it is more satisfying when an author leaves something like that just under the surface. 

Well that is another issue that has been debated fiercely. Personally, I think that if Tyrion is a Targ bastard (and I am not 100% certain, but I am one of the biggest proponents of the theory), I don't think that it can just be left "under the surface" for two basic reasons.

First, if Tyrion is a Targ, it will be more important that just Tyrion being able to ride a dragon. If GRRM was going to make Tyrion a Targ just to ride a dragon, then it really want not that worth the trouble -- GRRM simply could have worked in a different way to get Tyrion to ride a dragon (as many of those who don't think AJT is correct believe will happen). Rather, it also will matter regarding his relationship with Dany and Jon in terms of being their brother/uncle and being a head of the dragon (the dragon being House Targ). So I think that a full reveal is necessary for those relationships to develop as GRRM would presumably be headed if Tyrion really is a Targ bastard.

Second, I really don't think that with respect to major mysteries, GRRM works that way. He sets up the mysteries for people to find them and then ultimately to reveal them to everyone so that the ones who figured it out can feel smart and the rest can go back and see how GRRM planted all of the clues that they missed. Some have describe this process as a three-step approach where GRRM first gives very obscure clues, then gives clearer clues and finally reveals the answer to the mystery. Sure, GRRM might leave some minor "easter eggs" unrevealed for people to speculate about -- but the big mysteries will be revealed.

6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It seems to me that he's talking about making up further historical examples, not indicating that polygamy would still be legal at the time of Robert's Rebellion. We know he hadn't fully fleshed out all that historical Targaryen stuff until two or three years ago when he started writing for the worldbook, novellas and Fire & Blood. I still don't think he's gotten to the later Targaryens. 

Even if you read that quote to indicate that polygamy is still legal, that was fifteen years ago. The man has changed his mind about a lot of things during that period. We know a few of the things he's changed (Rhaenyra was once much closer in age to Aegon II and married to a Strong) Even one or two things that were stated in the books have been retconned since Martin did all this fake history writing. (like that all of Egg's children were married.) 

OK, after saying I had debated this issue with you so many times, it was pointless to re-start the debate -- I have a question anyway. Are you suggesting that GRRM might have thought that Rhaegar and Lyanna would be married when he made the quote 15 years ago, but now he has changed his mind and will not have them be married? If so, then that conclusion does not make sense to me. Whether Jon is legit or not is something that GRRM would have needed to decided before he wrote GoT -- it is too fundamental an issue to retcon. GRRM has been building to an ending for a long time -- and he has stated repeatedly that he cannot change the ending because too much would not make sense if he did. So if Rhaegar and Lyanna were going to be married when GRRM wrote GoT, they are going to be married when GRRM gets around to writing that portion of the books (if he ever does).

If instead you are making a less significant point -- that GRRM thought he would add more polygamy in the backstory of the Targs, but then changed his mind (while never intending to make Rhaegar and Lyanna married), then I just don't think your point really matters. Sure, the SSM does not "prove" that GRRM definitely was going to have more -- and since he did not Rhaegar and Lyanna must be it. But it certainly leaves open this possibility, and so those who say polygamy cannot be an option seem to be incorrect.

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21 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

He is talking about the possibility of polygamous marriages post Maegor "There might have been a few later instances as well". Post Maegor would include everything up to the current timeline. Add to that, there is simply nothing in the published canon that precludes polygamy as an option. All we know is that Jaehaerys codified the laws but we have no further details on that and that there are no known cases of polygamy (as yet) post Maegor, which isn't odd as it was considered an unusual practice. Certainly Martin could, and has, changed his mind but getting into whether he changed his mind with regards to this particular SSM is an excercise in futility.

That there may have been instances after Maegor in no way suggests that it was still legal in Rhaegar's day. Maegor was only the third Targaryen king after all, most of Targaryen history occurs post Maegor. I think it's more likely he was talking about instances in the past than referring to Rhaegar. After all at this point he wouldn't be "making up" a Rhaegar Lyanna marriage, he would have come up with that idea years before. 

16 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

OK, after saying I had debated this issue with you so many times, it was pointless to re-start the debate -- I have a question anyway. Are you suggesting that GRRM might have thought that Rhaegar and Lyanna would be married when he made the quote 15 years ago, but now he has changed his mind and will not have them be married? If so, then that conclusion does not make sense to me. Whether Jon is legit or not is something that GRRM would have needed to decided before he wrote GoT -- it is too fundamental an issue to retcon. GRRM has been building to an ending for a long time -- and he has stated repeatedly that he cannot change the ending because too much would not make sense if he did. So if Rhaegar and Lyanna were going to be married when GRRM wrote GoT, they are going to be married when GRRM gets around to writing that portion of the books (if he ever does).

No, I'm not suggesting that Martin changed his mind about whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. I'm suggesting he could have changed his mind about there being other historical examples of Targaryen polygamy after Maegor. It seems clear that he did decide there were none. (I don't think that even counts as changing his mind, as he only said there may have been)

I was just saying that if we choose to read that quote as Consigliere does, that polygamy was never made illegal, then Martin may have changed his mind about the legality of polygamy since then. 

16 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

If instead you are making a less significant point -- that GRRM thought he would add more polygamy in the backstory of the Targs, but then changed his mind (while never intending to make Rhaegar and Lyanna married), then I just don't think your point really matters. Sure, the SSM does not "prove" that GRRM definitely was going to have more -- and since he did not Rhaegar and Lyanna must be it. But it certainly leaves open this possibility, and so those who say polygamy cannot be an option seem to be incorrect.

Yes, the is exactly the point that I'm making. (minus the part you have in parenthesis. I think it's possible they got married though it was illegal. Some have argued that not just the king but any royals are above the law.) And you're right it doesn't really matter. But I think that's all Martin was getting at in that SSM. I don't see how the fact that Maegor may not have been the last to practice it is evidence that polygamy would still be legal over two centuries later. 

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

That there may have been instances after Maegor in no way suggests that it was still legal in Rhaegar's day. Maegor was only the third Targaryen king after all, most of Targaryen history occurs post Maegor. I think it's more likely he was talking about instances in the past than referring to Rhaegar.

It most certainly does and there is zero evidence in all published works that suggests polygamy was illegal in Rhaegar's day. We've done this dance before and there is nothing new to say; neither one of us is going to convince the other. Hopefully the show puts this issue to bed once and for all this season.

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I really hope Jon's a bastard. 

The whole point of the series imo is that this generation, mostly Dany,Jon and Tyrion, are going to bring down the current feudal system (consciously or not). If Jon ever gets the throne, then it should be because the people who support him want him there. (Same with Dany, for all her misguided notion that it's her "right", she needs to conquer the damn thing anyway.) 

I like the idea that the KGs at the ToJ have more complexity to them than being honorable and dutiful to a lunatic king without any political agenda. Same with Lyanna-I don't want to marry a womanizer-Stark being "only" a paramour.

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21 hours ago, Consigliere said:

It most certainly does and there is zero evidence in all published works that suggests polygamy was illegal in Rhaegar's day. We've done this dance before and there is nothing new to say; neither one of us is going to convince the other. Hopefully the show puts this issue to bed once and for all this season.

I'm really baffled by your reasoning. Just because something may have happened in the past does not indicate that it is legal. Illegal things happen all the time. Plus kings are above the law. Even Maegor practicing polygamy doesn't establish that it was legal at that time. (though the laws may have varied between regions back then.) Just as a Targaryen getting away with murder in the past does not suggest that murder is legal. But you're right I suppose we're not going to convince each other. :cheers:

I don't think we should use the show to make determinations about historical background stuff like this. I think Sansa is already practicing polygamy on the show and they just don't care about that sort of stuff. Where in the books it's clear that something has to be done about her marriage to Tyrion before she can remarry. 

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23 hours ago, good girl said:

Does Varys know? Why would he know? Tyrion was born in 272 and Illyrio says Varys was recruited by the Mad King who did not trust his son, wife or hand. In 272 Rhaegar would 13. It seems much more likely Varys would have arrived in Westeros well after when the King became "mad" which wouldn't be for years, at least until after Duskendale in 277, closer to Robert's Rebellion anyway.

Varys definitely contributed to Aerys going mad, an already paranoid guy does not need someone like Varys whispering every bit of info into his ear.  I mean if fAegon is indeed blackfyre that means Illyrio and Varys were already plotting the kings downfall when Varys  first went into his employ.  "Word reached his ear about a spymaster in Pentos"....It would have been super easy for V&I to plant this information in Aerys, since they had certainly heard of this paranoid king across the Narrow Sea.  But paranoid =/= Mad.

 

Anyway, Aerys made some stupid decisions in his youth that Tywin almost always bailed him out of, but he wasn't completely mad until Duskendale.  Marked by the fact that that was the last time he left the Red Keep until the KOTLT tourney.

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Maegor had been a sadistic psychopatic freak willing to walk across mass graves of dead bodies (including those of his own blood nephews) to get what he wanted.

I really wouldn't bring this guy's 'marriages' as an evidence of Targaryen polygamy being legal. It clearly wasn't considered legal back then (Aenys and the Faith both reacted negatively) and it hasn't been practised - not even a single time - in the next three hundred years of Targaryen rule, not even at times when the king could do with another wife to produce heirs (see Viserys the First or even the Mad King himself).

What I find most likely in regards to Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship is that either once the war was over, Rhaegar meant to set aside Elia for being barren and quickly replace her with Lyanna, or he never really meant for her to be anything else than his mistress.

Frankly, as opposed to many fans, I don't think it would make Jon lesser in any way if was truly a bastard. I really don't believe that it's a story GRRM is trying to tell, i.e. that a protagonist has got to be trueborn (because he's simply too good to be born illegitimate or something; other than the idea that Jon *should* be legitimate I don't understand the logic behind people trying so hard to prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and it was totally undisputably legal, although all evidence in the World Book points against it).

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