[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[DMC]

Yeah, I never knew that was a Heresy thing either, like UL.  Not gonna come here post hoc and say I expected it, but the CoF's involvement with the creation of the Others has always seemed to be the most basic answer.  Personally, I just always liked the idea that the First Men, and namely the original Starks, were also somehow involved.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

On 5/25/2016 at 10:21 AM, Consigliere said:

No idea but the impression I get is that it might be due to the stigma attached to Heresy where many equate Heresy with "crackpot". I've not actually seen this idea explored outside of Heresy.

 

On 5/26/2016 at 8:50 PM, dmc515 said:

Yeah, I never knew that was a Heresy thing either, like UL.  Not gonna come here post hoc and say I expected it, but the CoF's involvement with the creation of the Others has always seemed to be the most basic answer.  Personally, I just always liked the idea that the First Men, and namely the original Starks, were also somehow involved.

Well it doesnt make sense to me, so the COtf create the WW's to kill 'man' and to save themselves from the onslaught of the Andals.  So then a few thousand years later (or however long), the very last of the COtF (the exact same one who created the WW's)  sacrifice themselves and the last of their race all to save Bran????..... I mean that is a hard bite to swallow.  I bet most of that is not from GRRM.  I mean isn't it already canon in the books that the Night's King is the Great Other?

[Consigliere]

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

Well it doesnt make sense to me, so the COtf create the WW's to kill 'man' and to save themselves from the onslaught of the Andals.  So then a few thousand years later (or however long), the very last of the COtF (the exact same one who created the WW's)  sacrifice themselves and the last of their race all to save Bran????..... I mean that is a hard bite to swallow.  I bet most of that is not from GRRM.  I mean isn't it already canon in the books that the Night's King is the Great Other?

I expect the details to differ but you can take it to the bank that The Others are not one of the old races but rather were created by the CoTF.

The CoTF creating The Others in response to the First Men invasion makes more sense than the Andal invasion since the first Long Night was long before the Andals.

In the show, Leaf was involved in the creation of the WW. This will certainly not be the case in the books as Leaf is nowhere near old enough.

I don't see how the Night's King = Great Other is anywhere near 'canon' in the books.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 I mean isn't it already canon in the books that the Night's King is the Great Other?

I don't think so; and that would be news to me.  Martin went out of his way last year to clarify that the Night's King in the books is a historical/mythical figure existed during the Age of Heroes, with no more likelihood to still be alive as other figures like Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever.

I think it makes sense from the viewpoint that the CotF created the Others before the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and then the Others eventually became the greatest threat to all of Planetos during the Long Night.  Frankenstein's monster and all that, but to each her own

[Suzanna Stormborn]

23 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I expect the details to differ but you can take it to the bank that The Others are not one of the old races but rather were created by the CoTF.

The CoTF creating The Others in response to the First Men invasion makes more sense than the Andal invasion since the first Long Night was long before the Andals.

In the show, Leaf was involved in the creation of the WW. This will certainly not be the case in the books as Leaf is nowhere near old enough.

I don't see how the Night's King = Great Other is anywhere near 'canon' in the books.

 

22 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I don't think so; and that would be news to me.  Martin went out of his way last year to clarify that the Night's King in the books is a historical/mythical figure existed during the Age of Heroes, with no more likelihood to still be alive as other figures like Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever.

I think it makes sense from the viewpoint that the CotF created the Others before the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and then the Others eventually became the greatest threat to all of Planetos during the Long Night.  Frankenstein's monster and all that, but to each her own

oh ok, i dont have the history timeline exactly straight, but i guess that makes sense.  I just highly doubt any of that scene in the cave goes down similar at all in the books.

[Consigliere]

13 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

oh ok, i dont have the history timeline exactly straight, but i guess that makes sense.  I just highly doubt any of that scene in the cave goes down similar at all in the books.

Oh, I agree. It will be a similar sort of thing to the Hodor situation. We can be sure that Hodor dies 'holding the door' but the context/how it happens will be different. Similarly, I think that we can be sure about the CoTF creating The Others but the context/how it happens is likely to be quite different.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

10 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Oh, I agree. It will be a similar sort of thing to the Hodor situation. We can be sure that Hodor dies 'holding the door' but the context/how it happens will be different. Similarly, I think that we can be sure about the CoTF creating The Others but the context/how it happens is likely to be quite different.

Right, I was reading up on the history a little, and I guess if the Long Night happened before the Andals came, then the WW's were def created before the Andals.  Man those First Men must have been some serious bastards to the CotF!! They must have been flaying and eating and slaughtering the poor little Elves to  make them create such super monsters as bodyguards!

 

The man who got the obsidian shoved in his heart looked like a blonde viking type guy.  I thought he would be dark hair/beard/big guy, ya know like the older races of Men have always been described in the books.  it was probably just the show not caring about detail yet again.....

[Wouter]

Is Leaf supposed to be the specific COTF who created the White Walkers, in the show? I didn't get that from the episode, I think Bran's "you created them!" should be interpreted as "you, the COTF as a race/in general, created them" (not Leaf specifically).

Regarding the A+J=T theory, interesting moment in the latest episode was Kinvara reminding the audience of Tyrion's encounter with a Red Priestess on the long bridge of Volantis. The one who fixed his gaze. Obviously, this was reported to Kinvara. Tyrion is in the visions of some Red Priests it would seem, as is Varys.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Is Leaf supposed to be the specific COTF who created the White Walkers, in the show? I didn't get that from the episode, I think Bran's "you created them!" should be interpreted as "you, the COTF as a race/in general, created them" (not Leaf specifically).

Regarding the A+J=T theory, interesting moment in the latest episode was Kinvara reminding the audience of Tyrion's encounter with a Red Priestess on the long bridge of Volantis. The one who fixed his gaze. Obviously, this was reported to Kinvara. Tyrion is in the visions of some Red Priests it would seem, as is Varys.

 

Or, perhaps she saw the "meeting" in a vision of her own?

[Wouter]

Also possible, but one would think the Red Priestess on the bridge would report such a sensitive encounter (she was shocked, and it was not because there is a prize on Tyrion's Lannister head; the goals of the Red Priests are incompatible with those of Cersei) to her boss, anyway.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Has Cersei even put a price on his head on the show?  I dont recall any dwarf-head scenes.....

[DMC]

6 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

The man who got the obsidian shoved in his heart looked like a blonde viking type guy.  I thought he would be dark hair/beard/big guy, ya know like the older races of Men Men have always been described in the books.  it was probably just the show not caring about detail yet again.....

I think it had more to do with using the same actor that plays "The Night King" under all that makeup.

[Wouter]

43 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Has Cersei even put a price on his head on the show?  I dont recall any dwarf-head scenes.....

IIRC there was one, with Qyburn involved (he took the head for his experiment?).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

Is Leaf supposed to be the specific COTF who created the White Walkers, in the show? I didn't get that from the episode, I think Bran's "you created them!" should be interpreted as "you, the COTF as a race/in general, created them" (not Leaf specifically).

 

I think in the show it IS supposed to be the exact same CotF who created them that had the thermal detonator in the hall of zombies.  In the books I know it's not the same person, but on the show it was.  I mean...she literally looked like she hadnt aged a day...they could have changed her appearance slightly at least, this was over 1000 years.

3 minutes ago, Wouter said:

IIRC there was one, with Qyburn involved (he took the head for his experiment?).

ok yeah I remember now.  I bet the dwarf in Arya's play gets killed being mistaken for Tyrion, I mean they have to mention it again at least once.

 

But yes, the red priestess noticing Tyrion in Volantis is a nod to Vagarro's Whore taking note of Tyrion and this red priestess in Meereen is a nod to Moqorro i suppose.  but it can be no coincidence all these people notice him in show and books.  Even though I cnanot imagine why Varys had zero interest in Tyrion taming the dragons in such a way.  Even if AJT is not true, why wouldnt he at least mention it once? wtf?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Finally our boy Aerys makes an appearance!!!

 

So yeah, looks like Aerys did threaten Lyanna's life along with her brothers.  So Rhaegar charged out and 'abducted' Lyanna to rescue her form his father!!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

And holy Fucking Awesomeness!!! Dany is the dragonlord of an ENORMOUS dragon!!!!!

[RumHam]

I'm glad Coldhands is Benjen even though we know he's not in the books. It's a nice reminder for people to not draw book conclusions from the show. 

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think in the show it IS supposed to be the exact same CotF who created them that had the thermal detonator in the hall of zombies.  In the books I know it's not the same person, but on the show it was.  I mean...she literally looked like she hadnt aged a day...they could have changed her appearance slightly at least, this was over 1000 years.

Yes, it is Leaf.  I guess, in the show, they created the Others because there was only five CotF left that ended up hanging out under a tree for thousands of years...

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So yeah, looks like Aerys did threaten Lyanna's life along with her brothers.  So Rhaegar charged out and 'abducted' Lyanna to rescue her form his father!!

Wait, what?  The Bran visions went so fast I must have missed anything suggesting Aerys threatened Lyanna.  Please share!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yes, it is Leaf.  I guess, in the show, they created the Others because there was only five CotF left that ended up hanging out under a tree for thousands of years...

Wait, what?  The Bran visions went so fast I must have missed anything suggesting Aerys threatened Lyanna.  Please share!

well Aerys was saying "Burn them all"

and it showed the wildfire.

Then it showed Ned saying "Where is my sister?"

So I think it was showing a connection between Aerys ordering 'them' burned and Ned looking for his sister.  Aerys was saying "Burn them all", as in 'Burn all the Starks.' Which would include Lyanna.

[DMC]

Gotcha, thanks!