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[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3


Suzanna Stormborn

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23 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

The captioning just says 'whispers'. I just watched it twenty times with the headphones cranked, and I'm convinced her first whispered statement is 'His name is Aegon'. Her lips don't meet to make the 'm' sound in the middle of the word, either - watch it with that in mind, and see what you think.

The show didn't do the Aegon plot, or the Undying vision, so that name wouldn't cause any confusion. They've mentioned Aegon the conqueror quite a bit though.

Rhaegar already named his first son Aegon. Aemon seems more likely but it definitely starts with A. What about Aerion?

More interested in Dawn's significance. Not Arthut is not his dad, Ned wouldn't keep it as secret as Robert was set on killing every Targaryen.

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2 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So I watched it closely to see what name she whispered.  This is what the internet says she says; 

"No, no water. Listen to me, Ned. His name is ... if Robert finds out, he'll kill him. You know he will. You have to protect him. Promise me, Ned. Promise me."

If you look close you can see she says "Aemon". I bet my car that's what she says. His name is Aemon.

:agree:I really think she said "Aemon" as well. I wish we could get the actress who played Lyanna to "spill the beans" on what name they told her to say, but I really am pretty sure she said Aemon. Naming Jon as Aegon, when Rhaegar's son, Aegon, had still been alive at the time that Rhaegar would have last been with Lyanna for them to choose a name, makes no sense. 

The questions is why did they keep the name a secret? The only name that would be a big deal to keep a secret to be revealed later is Aemon --given the portrayal of Maester Aemon.

2 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

Watch her lips. There's no 'm'. It looks and sounds like she's saying Aegon.

I disagree. Her lips are starting to come together as the camera cuts away. She is saying Aemon.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Rhaegar already named his first son Aegon. Aemon seems more likely but it definitely starts with A. What about Aerion?

More interested in Dawn's significance. Not Arthut is not his dad, Ned wouldn't keep it as secret as Robert was set on killing every Targaryen.

lol to these silly show-watching theories:rofl:.....Dayne is his father...lmfao

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3 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

:agree:I really think she said "Aemon" as well. I wish we could get the actress who played Lyanna to "spill the beans" on what name they told her to say, but I really am pretty sure she said Aemon. Naming Jon as Aegon, when Rhaegar's son, Aegon, had still been alive at the time that Rhaegar would have last been with Lyanna for them to choose a name, makes no sense. 

The questions is why did they keep the name a secret? The only name that would be a big deal to keep a secret to be revealed later is Aemon --given the portrayal of Maester Aemon.

I disagree. Her lips are starting to come together as the camera cuts away. She is saying Aemon.

Right? In the books doesnt Jon pretend to be the Dragonknight when they were kids?

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Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Right? In the books doesnt Jon pretend to be the Dragonknight when they were kids?

Yes, his favorite character to play was Aemon the Dragonknight. And at one point at the Wall he talks about how he is "no Aemon Targaryen" which would be obvious GRRM irony if his real name really is Aemon Targaryen. And Rhaegar was close to Maester Aemon. Rhaegar would not name two different sons that same name.

Oh, and the heresy threads also posited AD as one of the possible fathers of Jon. So it is not only crazy show watchers but some crazy book readers as well.

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5 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

lol to these silly show-watching theories:rofl:.....Dayne is his father...lmfao

People will come with theories because they didn't said his father name or some are convinced that this baby wasn't Jon. But Dawn might play a part in Jon's arc. The way camera focused on Dawn leaning against Lyanna's bed.

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1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Yes, his favorite character to play was Aemon the Dragonknight. And at one point at the Wall he talks about how he is "no Aemon Targaryen" which would be obvious GRRM irony if his real name really is Aemon Targaryen. And Rhaegar was close to Maester Aemon. Rhaegar would not name two different sons that same name.

Oh, and the heresy threads also posited AD as one of the possible fathers of Jon. So it is not only crazy show watchers but some crazy book readers as well.

Yeah i've seen it before.  If there is one thing I like about this season is that it put an end to several ridiculous theories.  But apparently the Arthur Dayne = Jon's father was somehow supported by the show to some people??? 

 

Ah, right I thought he had mentioned it once or twice.  I am pretty sure that's his name, freaking Aemon Azor Ahai Targaryen :D

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Actress who played Lyanna. :D I think we'll get Rhaegar next season as Daeny is almost in Westeros and significance of this rises, if they were married. Casting Rhaegar would be interesting as the guy got some reputation.

 

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15 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I disagree. Her lips are starting to come together as the camera cuts away. She is saying Aemon.

That might be - certainly Aemon makes more sense. I can't watch it anymore, my ears are now ringing. Pretty actress, though, and the two of them do look like brother and sister.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

People will come with theories because they didn't said his father name or some are convinced that this baby wasn't Jon. But Dawn might play a part in Jon's arc. The way camera focused on Dawn leaning against Lyanna's bed.

Bleeding star.  Also could apply to Arthur Dayne's death. Lyanna's salty tears.  The only thing missing is smoke...but doesn't Ned burn something afterwards?

It would fulfill the prophecy.

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Seriously people.  You really need to have a brain malfunction to think that the father is any other man than the Crown Prince.

1-"why are you here", "this is where our prince wanted us to be"...Is not the exact quote but that's the idea. Why would Prince Rhaegar keep a woman that was rape by one of his guard?

2-If Lyanna was with another man that wasn't Prince Rhaegar the rebellion would not had happen. King Aerys would burn the guilty man and problem solved.

3-Whenever the name Lyanna is mentioned on the show is almost always with a reference of Prince Rhaegar.

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11 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

She looks a lot like Emilia Clarke in RL.

Maybe Daeny was born there too but she looks a lot like Emilia and a bit like Maisie when I first watched it. I have to say whoever catsed baby deserves award. They little boy has same brooding qualities like Kit. :D  I think the way they reveal it...they also gave George time to reveal it fully in the books but will he? If he manage to finish Winds of Winter before next season. The way he's writing...don't know about this.

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

SO Dany is leaving Daario behind.....I think that will happen in books as well. Poor girl :( But I'm glad at the same time.

 

Daario might cause trouble because don't believe they're done with him. Just like Jorah. Tyrion seems like falling in love with Daeny. Also they mentioned marriage, alliances and how she will be loved again by Tyrion. If he is truly a Targaryen, I understand why he would love her. Well guess who was appointed King and who is her family. What if Daeny, Tyrion and Jon form love triangle like Martin intended to do with Arya.

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4 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

AJT: Half-siblings Sansa and Jon showing their 'brotherhood' and 'we need to trust each other' and cuddle... CUT... Dany and Tyrion performing a 'I believe in you, I am your servant - I trust you you are my hand'... Half-siblings Dany and Tyrion.

Quite the stretch.  This is seeing what you want to see.

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

She'd better be. She usurped Brienne's throne! I think. I can't think who else still exists on the show and would be in line for it. Apart from Jon and Dany. 

Right?  If we wanna get geeky about it though - the Widowed Queen Cersei Baratheon would likely have a fairly decent claim as opposed to Brienne, who's what?  Presumably the scion of Robert's grandmother's cousin?

14 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

:agree:I really think she said "Aemon" as well. I wish we could get the actress who played Lyanna to "spill the beans" on what name they told her to say, but I really am pretty sure she said Aemon. Naming Jon as Aegon, when Rhaegar's son, Aegon, had still been alive at the time that Rhaegar would have last been with Lyanna for them to choose a name, makes no sense. 

The questions is why did they keep the name a secret? The only name that would be a big deal to keep a secret to be revealed later is Aemon --given the portrayal of Maester Aemon.

I disagree. Her lips are starting to come together as the camera cuts away. She is saying Aemon.

I don't have any skin in this game - could literally not care less what Jon's birth name is.  But I agree - after watching it a few times IMO she's saying Aemon, and naming him Aegon doesn't really make sense.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That King in the North thing might as quickly dissolve into nothingness as Cersei I Lannister is going to be ousted. Once Bran comes back and tells Sansa and Jon who the hell Jon Snow actually Jon might even step down and try to connect with Daenerys and Tyrion, asking their help to fight the Others, and handing the North to Bran.

I think this might be accurate in the books but not in the show.  They did too much streamlining last night - to the point there's not much conflict in the North left before fighting the Others.  Based on Benioff's comments in the After-the-Episode thing, it seems as if they're going to play up the Jon/Sansa/LF triangle, and I suspect Bran's return will play a part in that as well.  My hope - and since D&D are big on fan service it's likely to be the case - is this will all end when the Hound reveals LF's original (Ned) sin.  Anywho, I agree this likely has less than zero to do with the books - although I still wouldn't necessarily discount the possibility of the Vale army marching North.

6 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

SO Dany is leaving Daario behind.....I think that will happen in books as well. Poor girl :( But I'm glad at the same time.

I had to remind my brother last night that Daario is still technically a hostage.  Who knows if he's even alive at this point in the books?

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'Aegon' as a name for the child makes little sense in light of the fact that Rhaegar would then have two sons with that name. Rhaegar most likely would have chosen the name of his son and he wouldn't have wanted to have two Aegons.

The fact that his firstborn son was named Aegon was most likely both tradition as well as to honor his great-grandfather, Aegon V, who died on the day of his birth.

Aemon makes a lot of sense in light of the fact that Rhaegar apparently was in contact with his great-granduncle in his last years.

The setting in the show seems to indicate that Ned Stark is utterly stupid and has no idea that Lyanna has just given birth until the show him the child. More importantly, unless she talks a lot about her secret marriage (which nobody then alive would have witnessed, presumably) then one would imagine that Ned already knew that they were married, right?

I mean, two-sword guy and no name guy wouldn't have died for a bastard, right? And he would have known that.

4 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Right?  If we wanna get geeky about it though - the Widowed Queen Cersei Baratheon would likely have a fairly decent claim as opposed to Brienne, who's what?  Presumably the scion of Robert's grandmother's cousin?

RumHam was talking about Brienne's Targaryen ancestors. She also has Baratheon ancestors but the Baratheon claim to the Iron Throne comes from Aegon V and Princess Rhaelle, not from the Baratheon side of the family. If that branch is completely eradicated then the next legal heir should be the closest cousin of Robert's through the Targaryen line, not the Baratheon line (assuming we exclude Dany, Aegon, Jon Snow, etc.).

But I'd agree that Cersei as Queen Dowager has a weak claim to the throne, too. The same sort of claim Lady Hornwood and Lady Dustin have to the lordships of their husbands. But I very much doubt that a Queen Dowager would ever be able to realize such a claim in the books. Not when the Iron Throne is involved.

4 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I think this might be accurate in the books but not in the show.  They did too much streamlining last night - to the point there's not much conflict in the North left before fighting the Others.  Based on Benioff's comments in the After-the-Episode thing, it seems as if they're going to play up the Jon/Sansa/LF triangle, and I suspect Bran's return will play a part in that as well.  My hope - and since D&D are big on fan service it's likely to be the case - is this will all end when the Hound reveals LF's original (Ned) sin.  Anywho, I agree this likely has less than zero to do with the books - although I still wouldn't necessarily discount the possibility of the Vale army marching North.

Well, my timetable is that the next seven episodes will be more or less about the remainder of the game of thrones, and then the final six episodes of season 8 will deal with the war against the Others. Thus things should go like that in next season:

1. Bran somehow crosses the Wall, meets with Dolorous Edd, and subsequently travels to Winterfell.

2. Cersei and Euron team up, marry each other (Jaime jealousy), and wage a massive sea battle against Daenerys before she can land (due to the magical information system this makes complete sense in the show). A lot of people are dying and perhaps some magical weapon shows up/is created to even mess with the dragons.

3. The season ends with Dany on the Iron Throne, Euron and Cersei being killed (by Jaime, perhaps because she intends to use the wildfire to burn down the entire city rather than suffer Dany on the Iron Throne). Considering white-washed Tyrion we'll most likely see him convincing Dany to pardon Jaime so that the show can give him a glorious death in the fight against the Others, perhaps saving Brienne and telling him that he 'always loved her' before he dies, wightifies, and is then heartbreakingly finished off with her Valyrian steel sword.

4. There might be some conflict in the North if Littlefinger/Sansa decide to turn the Vale troops (they are brainless puppets, after all) against Jon Snow, and Littlefinger might even get Lannister troops to assist them in that. But considering that we have only 5-6 episodes until the Wall should finally fall there is not all that much time for stuff like that.

5. Once Jon Snow learns who he actually is (and that Bran is still alive and has now joined him) the King of the North thing should become a non-issue in the show as much as the Night's Watch thing already became - there is no chance that the Lords of the North crown a guy king who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at one point in his life. That is complete silliness. Nobody there knows that he died, it is never discussed, and if I was a Northman I'd never believe such a ridiculous. At least not unless Jon Snow has smoking mortal woulds or something of that sort.

Jon might be able to push aside 'Lady Bolton' but not his own trueborn brother. And Lyanna Stark's son has no good claim to Winterfell anyway.

6. Once Dany lands and the extent of her army and her obvious opposition to Mad Cersei (who is also their enemy) is revealed an alliance becomes obvious. And Jon Snow is the man Daenerys Targaryen is going to marry in the show (as well as in the books). It is the reason why Daario conveniently stayed behind in the show. There is nobody but Jon Snow who Dany could possibly marry. He is literally the only one left.

Thus we'll possibly get a quick reunification of Westeros under Daenerys-Jon in the show after Cersei and Euron are dealt with. And thus Westeros will finally stand united against the Others. Hopefully the show won't suck in depicting that relationship believable. If they have Dany defer to Jon Snow as her 'king' I'll jump into the screen and strangle D&D myself. The books will do that whole thing justice but the show most likely will fail considering how these people usually depict women.

By the way:

There is a chance that Tyrion is falling in love with Dany. But in the show he'll be content with his place, of course, because he is Peter Dinklage. In the books things might somewhat worse. Tyrion should know that Dany is unreachable for him. But if he turns out to be her half-brother the whole Targaryen matrix might kick in and they might end up in a political marriage of sorts, especially if he becomes a dragonrider (a topic the show seems to be completely ignoring). And if something like that happens then jealousy actually might become a thing.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

'Aegon' as a name for the child makes little sense in light of the fact that Rhaegar would then have two sons with that name. Rhaegar most likely would have chosen the name of his son and he wouldn't have wanted to have two Aegons.

The fact that his firstborn son was named Aegon was most likely both tradition as well as to honor his great-grandfather, Aegon V, who died on the day of his birth.

Aemon makes a lot of sense in light of the fact that Rhaegar apparently was in contact with his great-granduncle in his last years.

The setting in the show seems to indicate that Ned Stark is utterly stupid and has no idea that Lyanna has just given birth until the show him the child. More importantly, unless she talks a lot about her secret marriage (which nobody then alive would have witnessed, presumably) then one would imagine that Ned already knew that they were married, right?

I mean, two-sword guy and no name guy wouldn't have died for a bastard, right? And he would have known that.

RumHam was talking about Brienne's Targaryen ancestors. She also has Baratheon ancestors but the Baratheon claim to the Iron Throne comes from Aegon V and Princess Rhaelle, not from the Baratheon side of the family. If that branch is completely eradicated then the next legal heir should be the closest cousin of Robert's through the Targaryen line, not the Baratheon line (assuming we exclude Dany, Aegon, Jon Snow, etc.).

But I'd agree that Cersei as Queen Dowager has a weak claim to the throne, too. The same sort of claim Lady Hornwood and Lady Dustin have to the lordships of their husbands. But I very much doubt that a Queen Dowager would ever be able to realize such a claim in the books. Not when the Iron Throne is involved.

Well, my timetable is that the next seven episodes will be more or less about the remainder of the game of thrones, and then the final six episodes of season 8 will deal with the war against the Others. Thus things should go like that in next season:

1. Bran somehow crosses the Wall, meets with Dolorous Edd, and subsequently travels to Winterfell.

2. Cersei and Euron team up, marry each other (Jaime jealousy), and wage a massive sea battle against Daenerys before she can land (due to the magical information system this makes complete sense in the show). A lot of people are dying and perhaps some magical weapon shows up/is created to even mess with the dragons.

3. The season ends with Dany on the Iron Throne, Euron and Cersei being killed (by Jaime, perhaps because she intends to use the wildfire to burn down the entire city rather than suffer Dany on the Iron Throne). Considering white-washed Tyrion we'll most likely see him convincing Dany to pardon Jaime so that the show can give him a glorious death in the fight against the Others, perhaps saving Brienne and telling him that he 'always loved her' before he dies, wightifies, and is then heartbreakingly finished off with her Valyrian steel sword.

4. There might be some conflict in the North if Littlefinger/Sansa decide to turn the Vale troops (they are brainless puppets, after all) against Jon Snow, and Littlefinger might even get Lannister troops to assist them in that. But considering that we have only 5-6 episodes until the Wall should finally fall there is not all that much time for stuff like that.

5. Once Jon Snow learns who he actually is (and that Bran is still alive and has now joined him) the King of the North thing should become a non-issue in the show as much as the Night's Watch thing already became - there is no chance that the Lords of the North crown a guy king who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at one point in his life. That is complete silliness. Nobody there knows that he died, it is never discussed, and if I was a Northman I'd never believe such a ridiculous. At least not unless Jon Snow has smoking mortal woulds or something of that sort.

Jon might be able to push aside 'Lady Bolton' but not his own trueborn brother. And Lyanna Stark's son has no good claim to Winterfell anyway.

6. Once Dany lands and the extent of her army and her obvious opposition to Mad Cersei (who is also their enemy) is revealed an alliance becomes obvious. And Jon Snow is the man Daenerys Targaryen is going to marry in the show (as well as in the books). It is the reason why Daario conveniently stayed behind in the show. There is nobody but Jon Snow who Dany could possibly marry. He is literally the only one left.

Thus we'll possibly get a quick reunification of Westeros under Daenerys-Jon in the show after Cersei and Euron are dealt with. And thus Westeros will finally stand united against the Others. Hopefully the show won't suck in depicting that relationship believable. If they have Dany defer to Jon Snow as her 'king' I'll jump into the screen and strangle D&D myself. The books will do that whole thing justice but the show most likely will fail considering how these people usually depict women.

By the way:

There is a chance that Tyrion is falling in love with Dany. But in the show he'll be content with his place, of course, because he is Peter Dinklage. In the books things might somewhat worse. Tyrion should know that Dany is unreachable for him. But if he turns out to be her half-brother the whole Targaryen matrix might kick in and they might end up in a political marriage of sorts, especially if he becomes a dragonrider (a topic the show seems to be completely ignoring). And if something like that happens then jealousy actually might become a thing.

You think marriage between them will be sealed before fight against walkers and not after that? Tyrion is falling for her and who knows original plan was for Jon and Tyrion to fight over Arya. Arya choose Jon and Tyrion burned Winterfell. Daeny might choose him instead of Tyrion and maybe that's why they don't want Tyrion Targaryen. So we can have only Jon and Daeny as Targaryens. Clean path to them.Daeny takig on Jon and Tyrion as husbands seems not an option. They really want Jon and Daeny together and it's pretty clear. They even mentioned in inside of the episode Benioff that Daeny being single could be useful for future as some King might be sitting beside her. How convinient that Jon was crown King in the North and is her family. Also bertrayl from Sansa is on the way leaving open road to them.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

You think marriage between them will be sealed before fight against walkers and not after that?

I think so, yes. If Dany is going to die she has to have time to give birth to a child. Besides, considering that the Wall didn't fall that season already I guess it is not going to fall in the very beginning of next season. More around the end of it, wrapping everything up in the last six episodes. The big battle will be in episode 5 of the last season, of course.

6 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Tyrion is falling for her and who knows original plan was for Jon and Tyrion to fight over Arya. Arya choose Jon and Tyrion burned Winterfell.

Well, that is obviously crap and done. I don't even think there will be a love triangle. Dany might marry Tyrion if he is her half-brother and a dragonrider to keep him close but Dany, Tyrion, and Jon are the three dragon heads in the books so I assume they will get a long more or less - just as Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys got along more or less while all of them were still alive.

 

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58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

RumHam was talking about Brienne's Targaryen ancestors. She also has Baratheon ancestors but the Baratheon claim to the Iron Throne comes from Aegon V and Princess Rhaelle, not from the Baratheon side of the family. If that branch is completely eradicated then the next legal heir should be the closest cousin of Robert's through the Targaryen line, not the Baratheon line (assuming we exclude Dany, Aegon, Jon Snow, etc.).

But I'd agree that Cersei as Queen Dowager has a weak claim to the throne, too. The same sort of claim Lady Hornwood and Lady Dustin have to the lordships of their husbands. But I very much doubt that a Queen Dowager would ever be able to realize such a claim in the books. Not when the Iron Throne is involved.

Yes, this was my point.  C'mon man give me more credit.  She has the same claim as Ladies Hornwood, Dustin, and for all we know Waynwood or Oakheart or who knows how many other examples I can't come up with off the top of my head.  I'm well aware of Brienne's Targ ancestors, thought that was clear in my response of "Robert's grandmother's cousin."

I like and very much appreciate your rundown so I'm only going to take the time to respond to the parts I take issue with:

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

4. There might be some conflict in the North if Littlefinger/Sansa decide to turn the Vale troops (they are brainless puppets, after all) against Jon Snow, and Littlefinger might even get Lannister troops to assist them in that. But considering that we have only 5-6 episodes until the Wall should finally fall there is not all that much time for stuff like that.

I disagree, they have consolidated the story into three main locations/storylines with Sam and the BWB as "B-stories" (I'm operating under the same assumption as you that Euron and Cersei align).  Thus, they in fact NEED more conflict in the North.

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

5. Once Jon Snow learns who he actually is (and that Bran is still alive and has now joined him) the King of the North thing should become a non-issue in the show as much as the Night's Watch thing already became - there is no chance that the Lords of the North crown a guy king who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at one point in his life. That is complete silliness. Nobody there knows that he died, it is never discussed, and if I was a Northman I'd never believe such a ridiculous. At least not unless Jon Snow has smoking mortal woulds or something of that sort.

Except they already did so in the show.  So, I'm assuming you're talking about the books at this point.  In which case, I still disagree with you.  I've been an observer of your tete-a-tetes on this issue over the years, and the fact I've never gotten involved isn't an accident - you argued the opposite side quite well.  However, while the show is shit in a lot of ways, I think it's clear they're intent on copying the major beats, so I take Jon as KitN at face value.

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Thus we'll possibly get a quick reunification of Westeros under Daenerys-Jon in the show after Cersei and Euron are dealt with. And thus Westeros will finally stand united against the Others. Hopefully the show won't suck in depicting that relationship believable. If they have Dany defer to Jon Snow as her 'king' I'll jump into the screen and strangle D&D myself. The books will do that whole thing justice but the show most likely will fail considering how these people usually depict women.

Ok, so you foresee Dany and Jon, but Jon as KitN beforehand is unfathomable?  Wouldn't that be the most expedient way for the two to get together?  As in, how Tyrion tells Aegon he needs something to offer the Breaker of Chains beyond his blood and cock?

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion should know that Dany is unreachable for him. But if he turns out to be her half-brother the whole Targaryen matrix might kick in and they might end up in a political marriage of sorts, especially if he becomes a dragonrider (a topic the show seems to be completely ignoring). And if something like that happens then jealousy actually might become a thing.

Jealously might, and can, become a thing if Tyrion is a Targaryen or not; and if Tyrion is a dragonrider or not.

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