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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

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8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

In the books? No.

On the show? *sigh* I would not put it past them. Even in season one--the books have Bran "see" Ned, Sansa, and Arya all miserable at the Trident, right around the time Ned kills Lady. But on the show: Ned stabs Lady and Bran's eyes pop open. NOT subtly telling us that Lady's death and Bran's waking are connected.

Throw in Brienne's staggeringly good timing on both Stannis and Sansa, Baelish's jetpack and all the rest of it--yes, cheesy as it would be, I could, sadly, see them do just that. 

So you know where I'm going with that then lol ?

OK just read a post from you earlier and someone else has suggested what I'm thinking re the bleeding star !

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5 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

You were convinced by that rambling? Not a chance that person actually saw "Jaehaerys" because the camera did not stay on Lyanna's lips long enough. We saw the first syllable and maybe half of the second syllable before the camera cut away (I watched it over and over again on you tube). Jaehaerys is a three syllable name. It would not be possible for anyone to see Lyanna mouth the name Jaehaerys. That person saw what he or she wanted to see (or is lying) and then wrote up an interesting enough post on reddit to go viral. 

But go to you tube and look for yourself (a bit before the 4 minute mark). To my eyes, I see what looks like a long "A" as the first syllable and then a cut away during the middle of the second syllable. But even if I am wrong, there is no way that camera remained on her lips for three syllables. My vote is still for Aemon.

Oh, and Jaeraerys would be a silly name for show purposes because show watchers know nothing about the past Kings who had the name Jaehaerys. The only Targ on the show that people know who could have a connection to Jon is Maester Aemon.

Ah ok. There is still hope for "Aemon Targaryen" then. Good news, I agree with you, it would make much more sense and as I said earlier I suspect this is the one fandom theory that GRRM borrowed for his story.

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2 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

Ah ok. There is still hope for "Aemon Targaryen" then. Good news, I agree with you, it would make much more sense and as I said earlier I suspect this is the one fandom theory that GRRM borrowed for his story.

Why would he have done that? We have those two quotes from Clash and Storm already.  Pretty sure he has had this planned all along.

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8 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Why would he have done that? We have those two quotes from Clash and Storm already.  Pretty sure he has had this planned all along.

:agree:I don't think this is retcon at all. I think that the statement from Jon about not being "Aemon Targaryen" and about playing as Aemon the Dragonknight as a kid were planted in the earlier books quite intentionally for this very purpose.

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17 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

You were convinced by that rambling? Not a chance that person actually saw "Jaehaerys" because the camera did not stay on Lyanna's lips long enough. We saw the first syllable and maybe half of the second syllable before the camera cut away (I watched it over and over again on you tube). Jaehaerys is a three syllable name. It would not be possible for anyone to see Lyanna mouth the name Jaehaerys. That person saw what he or she wanted to see (or is lying) and then wrote up an interesting enough post on reddit to go viral. 

But go to you tube and look for yourself (a bit before the 4 minute mark). To my eyes, I see what looks like a long "A" as the first syllable and then a cut away during the middle of the second syllable. But even if I am wrong, there is no way that camera remained on her lips for three syllables. My vote is still for Aemon.

Oh, and Jaeraerys would be a silly name for show purposes because show watchers know nothing about the past Kings who had the name Jaehaerys. The only Targ on the show that people know who could have a connection to Jon is Maester Aemon.

It's not just the visual, in the shot back to Bran you can hear "rys" or "ys", that's why some people think she said Aerys. Anyway others believe it's Aegon... so all of this is irrelevant for now.

"Silly"? There are good reasons why Jaehaerys is an option as good as Aemon imo, for obvious reasons such as the biographies of Jaehaerys  I & II: NW and PTWP prophesy. 

This scene introduces us to the name, by Sam no less and in the episode where the KitN dies. Also his name is going to be same in the books, why would they change that?

 

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1 hour ago, Les Météores D said:

It's not just the visual, in the shot back to Bran you can hear "rys" or "ys", that's why some people think she said Aerys. Anyway others believe it's Aegon... so all of this is irrelevant for now.

"Silly"? There are good reasons why Jaehaerys is an option as good as Aemon imo, for obvious reasons such as the biographies of Jaehaerys  I & II: NW and PTWP prophesy. 

This scene introduces us to the name, by Sam no less and in the episode where the KitN dies. Also his name is going to be same in the books, why would they change that?

 

What some people heard as "rys" or "ys" sounded to me merely as the exhaling of a dying woman (or more accurately, an actress trying to sound like a dying woman). And Aegon makes even less sense given that Rhaegar already had a son named Aegon and died before that son died. One might argue that Lyanna would choose the name in honor of the dead son, but I find that argument weak -- as much more likely Rhaegar and Lyanna would have agreed to a name before he left given that he did not know for sure when he would return (even if he assumed eventually he would return).

Jaehaerys (IMHO) is not as good an option as Aemon. There is not even a Jaehaerys II in the show -- they simplified the family tree and made Aegon V the father of Aerys rather than grandfather and simply wrote Jaehaerys II out of the family tree altogether. The name Jaehaerys was mentioned I think ONE time in the show. It means nothing to the viewers. The name Aemon has been stated quite a few more times than that -- and has real meaning to the viewers and Jon. Also, don't forget the book clues that the real name is Aemon.

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I actually haven't gone back and re-watched the episode, but it did look like they'd given Lyanna a c-section right? Seemed like too much blood too high up on her body for a natural birth, but I'm no expert. 

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23 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

In-show though:

i. Oberyn, in that very scene, describes Rhaegar as noble. Yes, he meant it sardonically as the 'noble' Rhaegar left his sister for another woman- but if I'm a showrunner and wanting to make it as divisive as possible I'm going to apply the 'noble' as pejorative to the abduction and rape of Lyanna as well. But Oberyn doesn't do that. He also mentions how many people died during the war that resulted from taking off with Lyanna, as others have done in-show. Which could be why [outside of Robert] the narrative was framed as it was. Propaganda. Don't feel bad for the Targaryen's or their children-- Rhaegar kidnapped a Stark and raped her repeatedly, causing this war where so many of you died!

:agree:

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Books: 

What you've said all hinges on the presupposition that Rhaegar kidnapped her and his wish to adhere to prophecy was entirely calculation. The latter might be, but... Textually, in comparison to the show, there are even more indications that Rhaegar was thought more than well of, but was rather admired and loved by many. It even seems evident that he'd intended to supplant the Mad King.

Oh, yes--I was giving the standard "hammered" argument that I've seen a lot of. And that I'm not at all sure I agree with. 

And the World Book made it very clear that Rhaegar was a political animal and wanted his father out. And really seems like Tywin was eager to help him in this regard.

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And, if one considers the possibility that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Harrenhall tourney, there is a span of time between the Mystery Knight's disappearance, Aerys' sending Rhaegar to find the Knight because its presence made him paranoid... and Rhaegar's triumph to crown Lyanna instead of Elia.

I think he found her.

I'm less sold on Lyanna as the Knight. I fully concede that it's possible, but I struggle to see it as set.

That said, your argument re: the "kidnapping" as wrong info: that I fully agree with. Given how much the books and even the show (a bit) have told us that in Martinlandia, perception is not truth, and given Lysa's confession at the Moon Door showing us that even something as seemingly clear as Jon Arryn's murder was not clear at all--given all of that, the idea that Rhaegar's "kidnap" of Lyanna was not an actual kidnap--that holds a lot of water.

My current pet theory on the subject is that Rhaegar ended up with Lyanna. Rather like the Brotherhood without Banners ended up with Arya. And like the Hound ended up with Arys. Protectors and yet holding onto her. And that Tywin helped get that "disappearance" and the rumor of her kidnapping rolling.

Quote

It was handled very poorly, what happened with Lyanna-- but, as commented upon numerous times [in-show and the books] you don't choose who you love. Prophecy, in Rhaegar's mind, might very well have fallen to the wayside in light of everything that happened from Harrenhall on.

I agree--though given how Rhaegar clearly sat out the war while Tywin did the same--seems like Rhaegar may have seen the war as an opportunity once it started. He knew his Targaryen history. He knew the problems created when Targs fight each other for the throne. To complete his transition to power, Rhaegar would need Aerys dead. And need to come out the savior compared to devil daddy. 

So, while I think prophecy may have played a role, we know that politics did, too. And, like the Brotherhood without Banners sees holding onto Arya as helpful to their cause (the will ransom her) and the Hound sees her as helpful to him (again, money_ and even the House of Black and White seems to have an agenda with her, and Baelish clearly has an agenda holding onto Sansa--I'm thinking Rhaegar might have held onto Lyanna for politics, too.

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44 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I actually haven't gone back and re-watched the episode, but it did look like they'd given Lyanna a c-section right? Seemed like too much blood too high up on her body for a natural birth, but I'm no expert. 

If we take the show at face value in regards to circumstances my idea that Lyanna only gave birth very recently got a huge boost. It wasn't puerperal fever that killed her but complications during/immediately after birth. They wouldn't have had her in actual bloody blankets if they could help it. Thus I think one should familiarize oneself to the idea that she was lying a literal bed of blood.

And that could have a lot of, say, repercussions in regards to whom the knights were actually protecting/guarding - Lyanna or the child. Once it was born obviously both but I think the focus there is pretty strongly on them being there in Rhaegar's command.

Aside from boring original name stuff:

What is the point of the whispering? Did Lyanna only then disclose the fact that she was married and had a child? Young Ned didn't seem to grasp what was going on despite all those bloody blankets until he saw the boy.

Can we take him not ask any questions that he knew Rhaegar and she were married?

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1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

What some people heard as "rys" or "ys" sounded to me merely as the exhaling of a dying woman (or more accurately, an actress trying to sound like a dying woman). And Aegon makes even less sense given that Rhaegar already had a son named Aegon and died before that son died. One might argue that Lyanna would choose the name in honor of the dead son, but I find that argument weak -- as much more likely Rhaegar and Lyanna would have agreed to a name before he left given that he did not know for sure when he would return (even if he assumed eventually he would return).

Jaehaerys (IMHO) is not as good an option as Aemon. There is not even a Jaehaerys II in the show -- they simplified the family tree and made Aegon V the father of Aerys rather than grandfather and simply wrote Jaehaerys II out of the family tree altogether. The name Jaehaerys was mentioned I think ONE time in the show. It means nothing to the viewers. The name Aemon has been stated quite a few more times than that -- and has real meaning to the viewers and Jon. Also, don't forget the book clues that the real name is Aemon.

My point was that we don't know what name was whispered, so dismissing Jaehaerys at this stage is a bit strange. Bold part: I'm afraid it's completely irrelevant  since the name will be the same regardless if the show ignore most of the info surrounding the prophecy (and it will).

Agree to disagree about the options I guess: Aemon, Daeron, Viserys and Jaehaerys have all different degrees of importance relating to Jon, either in the text or from Targ history. I think the name has to have significance for both Rhaegar and Lyanna.

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@Lord Varys--

Of course the show is going to make it complications from childbirth because it is easier to depict her bleeding out than dying of puerperal fever. The books might be going in the same direction but (i) I would not take the show as overwhelming evidence given the visual advantages of showing the literal bed of blood and (ii) even if you are correct that she died of complications from childbirth rather than puerperal fever, I don't think it changes any of the analysis (as long as Jon (Aemon?) is born before the KG leave the tower to confront Ned).

Prior to the birth, the 3 KG need to stay to see whether Jon is born male or female (presumably would have left to DS if born a female). Once born, they are guarding who they believe is the King -- which to me is the only way that the conversation with Ned makes sense (and I think the conversation has to be consistent with Ned's understanding of the underlying facts even if not technically what was said, so it does not matter that it is a dream and maybe not literal -- it has to make sense to Ned and would not if Jon is not the legit King being guarded by the KG). I can go through the details of the parts of the conversation that convince me of this reading -- but I think we have been through this issue enough on the main RLJ thread that you probably know all the arguments.

Oh, and I think the whispering was just to keep the name a secret because they think it will be a cool reveal later.

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I´m curious on whom and how many were in TOJ. There´ were at less two woman, no mention of if there was a Maester, Ned asked and nobody answer him but  if the son of a Prince is about to be born there should have been no only a maester but a septon too. Those people have the key to prove that Jon/Aemon/Aerys/Jaehaerys is a real Prince or a Grand Bastard. 

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3 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Lord Varys--

Of course the show is going to make it complications from childbirth because it is easier to depict her bleeding out than dying of puerperal fever. The books might be going in the same direction but (i) I would not take the show as overwhelming evidence given the visual advantages of showing the literal bed of blood and (ii) even if you are correct that she died of complications from childbirth rather than puerperal fever, I don't think it changes any of the analysis (as long as Jon (Aemon?) is born before the KG leave the tower to confront Ned).

Well, the impression I get in the show is that two-sword guy wanted to kill Ned in any case, so I don't think the fact that they had some child in there makes all that much of a difference. They were there to guard Lyanna.

And I think it makes much more sense to go with Lyanna being shortly before birth when the Ned and his guys arrived because there is the part of the dream in which Lyanna is screaming Ned's name. If that is part of the whole scenario then it she must have been capable of doing so, perhaps before things got out of hand between the guys.

The stress of the situation could easily have caused a sudden birth and then Ned would actually be partially responsible for Lyanna's death, a potentially very interesting feature in the entire thing.

3 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Prior to the birth, the 3 KG need to stay to see whether Jon is born male or female (presumably would have left to DS if born a female).

Why should they? Viserys III isn't their king, and he doesn't even know where they are nor what their last command by Rhaegar (or Aerys) is. And a boy is not necessarily more important than a girl especially if they stayed because of prophecy stuff Rhaegar told them (which is not unlikely at all, especially not in the case of Arthur Dayne). Nothing suggests those guys were playing the political game at this point, or had intention of doing so. If they thought Rhaegar's son was special then they wouldn't have used him as their pawn in the game of thrones.

3 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I can go through the details of the parts of the conversation that convince me of this reading -- but I think we have been through this issue enough on the main RLJ thread that you probably know all the arguments.

Oh, and I think the whispering was just to keep the name a secret because they think it will be a cool reveal later.

I actually think the show took the dream sequence there because they were lazy again. The books will not have the dream sequence as the literal truth. There will be major differences in the actual story and a lot of additional layers.

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45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the impression I get in the show is that two-sword guy wanted to kill Ned in any case, so I don't think the fact that they had some child in there makes all that much of a difference. They were there to guard Lyanna.

And I think it makes much more sense to go with Lyanna being shortly before birth when the Ned and his guys arrived because there is the part of the dream in which Lyanna is screaming Ned's name. If that is part of the whole scenario then it she must have been capable of doing so, perhaps before things got out of hand between the guys.

The stress of the situation could easily have caused a sudden birth and then Ned would actually be partially responsible for Lyanna's death, a potentially very interesting feature in the entire thing.

Why should they? Viserys III isn't their king, and he doesn't even know where they are nor what their last command by Rhaegar (or Aerys) is. And a boy is not necessarily more important than a girl especially if they stayed because of prophecy stuff Rhaegar told them (which is not unlikely at all, especially not in the case of Arthur Dayne). Nothing suggests those guys were playing the political game at this point, or had intention of doing so. If they thought Rhaegar's son was special then they wouldn't have used him as their pawn in the game of thrones.

I actually think the show took the dream sequence there because they were lazy again. The books will not have the dream sequence as the literal truth. There will be major differences in the actual story and a lot of additional layers.

And how you know that?

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18 minutes ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

And how you know that?

Because George has said that this thing was a fever dream and not necessarily the literal truth. Not to mention that it is pretty obvious that the scene in the books wasn't complete.

The additional layers are already creeping in. We got Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent as Rhaegar's best buddies, and Gerold Hightower as (apparently) a staunch Aerys supporter. We also learned that there was tension and possibly even open enmity between Rhaegar and Aerys.

Nothing of this sort is apparent in the dream sequence.

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Yeah I'm not ready to take the show as confirmation that she had a c-section, like @UnmaskedLurker said they could have done it because it was more visually interesting. Just if she did give birth very recently then I agree with @Lord Varys that it could have implications for some of the arguments made in the "drop everything to protect the king" vs "obey the prince" debate. 

Personally I imagine the three kingsguard were probably having that debate among themselves, and "obey the prince" won out. Maybe for practical reasons, or maybe for prophecy reasons. 

Also if it turns out in the books that Jon was born just as Ned got to the tower, I'd probably find that a little contrived. It'd just be such a coincidence. Unless as was suggested above it was a stress induced birth. 

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4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah I'm not ready to take the show as confirmation that she had a c-section, like @UnmaskedLurker said they could have done it because it was more visually interesting. Just if she did give birth very recently then I agree with @Lord Varys that it could have implications for some of the arguments made in the "drop everything to protect the king" vs "obey the prince" debate.

I guess we can safely assume that show presented it as complications during the birth. My guess always was there was a lot of bleeding during the birth resulting in this bed of blood and the smell in the tower Ned remembers.

4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Personally I imagine the three kingsguard were probably having that debate among themselves, and "obey the prince" won out. Maybe for practical reasons, or maybe for prophecy reasons. 

 

'Obey the prince' certainly won the day when they actually obeyed his command and stayed at the tower and protected Lyanna. That is evident. I think it would have been very difficult for Arthur and Oswell to abandon Rhaegar to guard some woman and her unborn child. They were his close friends, Arthur even his best friend, so both would have wanted to be with him more than anything else. And one can also guess that they were not necessarily supportive of or happy about this whole Lyanna infatuation and what it meant for the Realm.

I'm eating my not existing hat if it turns out that had made grand political plans for the future - like swearing vows to some infant king, deciding to go on a mad quest for Dragonstone, continue the fight, etc. If they had some preliminary plan then most likely something like 'Let's hide some place safe until we realize what's going on.' But I'd honestly be surprised if we ever learn what the three knights thought about the claim or status of the child. I mean, in what context could George present us such a conversation?

Even more so if Rhaegar's belief in prophecy kept them there (or if some/all of them came to believe in that, too).

4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Also if it turns out in the books that Jon was born just as Ned got to the tower, I'd probably find that a little contrived. It'd just be such a coincidence. Unless as was suggested above it was a stress induced birth. 

The whole situation is somewhat contrived. I actually think it is more contrived if it turns out that they hung out there days or even weeks just waiting for Lyanna to die.

And speaking about additional layers:

We should also get an explanation why the tower was 'the tower of joy' for Rhaegar. Why they went there, why they stayed there of all places, and why Lyanna did not return with Rhaegar to KL. Not to mention that we need an explanation for the entire run-and-hide story of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I think the show will have to address Harrenhal and its aftermath one way or another next season. Jon Snow will demand some answers when Bran tells him that he is actually the son of their aunt Lyanna.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 But I'd honestly be surprised if we ever learn what the three knights thought about the claim or status of the child. I mean, in what context could George present us such a conversation?

Bran maybe? If that wasn't just the way the show chose to reveal it to give Bran something to do. If there was a weirwood near the tower Bran could see different points in time leading up to Jon's birth. One of them could be the knights arguing about what they should do. 

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11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Bran maybe? If that wasn't just the way the show chose to reveal it to give Bran something to do. If there was a weirwood near the tower Bran could see different points in time leading up to Jon's birth. One of them could be the knights arguing about what they should do. 

Sure, Bran would work in any scenario. I just think that isn't necessarily a very important piece of information we need - Harrenhal, what the hell Rhaegar did when he left Dragonstone, and Rhaegar and Lyanna's actual relationship are much more important pieces than what the hell the knights thought.

I think the fact that they hinted at Lyanna's riding skills could suggests that we'll get a version of known Harrenhal stuff next season. But I'm not holding my breath.

And a retelling of the events at the tower could actually much better come from Howland Reed. The man is in the series to eventually serve a purpose.

Not to mention that Bran might want to investigate even more important events in the past.

I'm pretty sure we'll get none of the vision the show gave us this season. The Winterfell farewell scene has written show all over it. The only thing that should convert some information is a vision of the Others - but then, I'd very underwhelmed if it was obsidian daggers and stone circles in the books.

Thinking a little bit more we might get some sort of discussion among the knights and Lyanna what to do if Ned and/or Robert found them, assuming they ever considered such a scenario or learned of Rhaegar death in time.

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think the fact that they hinted at Lyanna's riding skills could suggests that we'll get a version of known Harrenhal stuff next season. But I'm not holding my breath.

And a retelling of the events at the tower could actually much better come from Howland Reed. The man is in the series to eventually serve a purpose.

 

 

I agree the events of the ToJ could be would be better told by Reed.

It would be nice to see the Tourney at Harrenhall, but like you--I'm not holding my breath. Again,not betting on it, but I'd love to see a prequel series of the events that caused/led up to Robert's Rebellion (the tourney, the whole "kidnapping" of Lyanna, all the way through to the end). In my opinion, I think she went with Rhaegar willingly, they married in secret and that they obviously had some kind of star-crossed, ill-fated love story going on. While he was "fond" of Elia (cared for her well being, liked her and wished her no ill, etc), I think Lyanna was the one. He never expected to lose the Battle of the Trident, and planned to return to make those changes in KL, replacing his father on the throne. But what then? How would things have played out? There is so much that's unknown. So many variables, but things were doomed from the start. One thing is for certain though, Rhaegar was born in grief and he died in grief as well.

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