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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

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On July 1, 2016 at 6:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

And a retelling of the events at the tower could actually much better come from Howland Reed. The man is in the series to eventually serve a purpose.

That's consistent with something George said, that he was holding back on introducing Howland Reed because he knows too much about the central mystery of the story. Certainly R+L=J, but since he's a mystical guy presumably, maybe more about the prophecy and what Rhaegar is up to.

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4 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

That's consistent with something George said, that he was holding back on introducing Howland Reed because he knows too much about the central mystery of the story. Certainly R+L=J, but since he's a mystical guy presumably, maybe more about the prophecy and what Rhaegar is up to.

I expect Howland to know more about the Others and the Green Men than about Rhaegar and the prophecy. If he and Ned had known about that one should expect that Ned had treated Jon Snow much differently.

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Jon Snow is Aemon Targaryen.

What Ser Arthur Dayne said to Ned was the proof that Rhaegar is Jon's father.

Ned asks AD, as a member of the Kingsguard, why weren't you with Rhaegar?

Arthur says Rhaegar ordered him to be at the tower.

This is interesting ... it hints that Rhaegar was tormented by the prophecy, unsure of the extent to which he was willing it to be true (as it justified his love for Lyana and making an heir with her) vs. it actually was true vs. self-fulfilling prophecy.

That is, it seems a fair possibility that Robert Baratheon only won at the Trident because Arthur Dayne wasn't there - he was that good, he would have single-handedly turned the battle.

In that sense, Rhaegar sending Ser Arthur to the Tower of Joy may have been the central decision of the entire series, just as much as Ned promising Lyana.  It was simultaneously: 

- an act of sacrifice, which led to his defeat and death, so that the son he thought would be AA would survive;

- an act of love, for Lyana and the product of their love;

- an act in conscious fulfilment of the prophecy: knowing that he was not AA but his son was, and therefore Ser Arthur had to be protecting his son Aemon.

Like Maester Aemon, he will renounce the Iron Throne when it is offered to him.

So where I agree with sly wren (and this is not controversial) is that Ser Arthur is very important

... but I also think that Dawn is important.  It was also an act of sacrifice by Ser Arthur to be at the Tower of Joy - he wanted to be at the battle, and he knows they may lose without him because he is that good - but he obeys Rhaegar.

It just makes sense that Jon gets Dawn.  There has always been a sense that, just as with Jon's paternity, there is a question mark about the swords he gets - that they're not really his.  Dawn fits that, but also transcends it: Arthur would have wanted Jon, perhaps the greatest current swordsman, and his Prince's son, to have Dawn.  It is Dawn and Ser Arthur that exemplify true noble service of the cause.  

See, I think Rhaegar foresaw all these angles.  Rhaegar knew that just as he was possibly condemning himself to death by ordering Ser Arthur to go to the Tower, he was equally condemning Ser Arthur to death. Equally, he foresaw that Ned (his brother in law), being Ned, would do the honourable thing and protect his son if Lyana made him promise to.  

So it may be that Jon will find out about Rhaegar when he gets Dawn, Ser Arthur also being in a sense his spiritual father just as much as Ned was.

Similarly, Rhaegar's act in giving Lyana the roses seems out of character.  It seems to me he must have known that he needed to make a mark deep in the collective consciousness of Westeros that he truly loved Lyana, so that there was some back up for his son being legitimate.  What seemed like a clueless, naive act was likely simultaneously an act of deeply intuited calculation and sacrifice ... and a joyous act of love for Lyana.

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2 hours ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Jon Snow is Aemon Targaryen.

What Ser Arthur Dayne said to Ned was the proof that Rhaegar is Jon's father.

Ned asks AD, as a member of the Kingsguard, why weren't you with Rhaegar?

Arthur says Rhaegar ordered him to be at the tower.

This is interesting ... it hints that Rhaegar was tormented by the prophecy, unsure of the extent to which he was willing it to be true (as it justified his love for Lyana and making an heir with her) vs. it actually was true vs. self-fulfilling prophecy.

That is, it seems a fair possibility that Robert Baratheon only won at the Trident because Arthur Dayne wasn't there - he was that good, he would have single-handedly turned the battle.

In that sense, Rhaegar sending Ser Arthur to the Tower of Joy may have been the central decision of the entire series, just as much as Ned promising Lyana.  It was simultaneously: 

- an act of sacrifice, which led to his defeat and death, so that the son he thought would be AA would survive;

- an act of love, for Lyana and the product of their love;

- an act in conscious fulfilment of the prophecy: knowing that he was not AA but his son was, and therefore Ser Arthur had to be protecting his son Aemon.

Like Maester Aemon, he will renounce the Iron Throne when it is offered to him.

So where I agree with sly wren (and this is not controversial) is that Ser Arthur is very important

... but I also think that Dawn is important.  It was also an act of sacrifice by Ser Arthur to be at the Tower of Joy - he wanted to be at the battle, and he knows they may lose without him because he is that good - but he obeys Rhaegar.

It just makes sense that Jon gets Dawn.  There has always been a sense that, just as with Jon's paternity, there is a question mark about the swords he gets - that they're not really his.  Dawn fits that, but also transcends it: Arthur would have wanted Jon, perhaps the greatest current swordsman, and his Prince's son, to have Dawn.  It is Dawn and Ser Arthur that exemplify true noble service of the cause.  

See, I think Rhaegar foresaw all these angles.  Rhaegar knew that just as he was possibly condemning himself to death by ordering Ser Arthur to go to the Tower, he was equally condemning Ser Arthur to death. Equally, he foresaw that Ned (his brother in law), being Ned, would do the honourable thing and protect his son if Lyana made him promise to.  

So it may be that Jon will find out about Rhaegar when he gets Dawn, Ser Arthur also being in a sense his spiritual father just as much as Ned was.

Similarly, Rhaegar's act in giving Lyana the roses seems out of character.  It seems to me he must have known that he needed to make a mark deep in the collective consciousness of Westeros that he truly loved Lyana, so that there was some back up for his son being legitimate.  What seemed like a clueless, naive act was likely simultaneously an act of deeply intuited calculation and sacrifice ... and a joyous act of love for Lyana.

"Aemon" Targaryen? Where does Aemon come from?

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@ThePukwudgie

Hints in text - see upthread - Jon pretended to be Aemon Dragonknight (foreshadowing); said he's no Aemon Targaryen (dramatic irony); he loved Aemon Targaryen who was another somewhat secret Targaryen who served the Night's Watch (symmetry).  Seems unlikely Rhaegar named his son, whom he took to be Azor Ahai, "Jon Targaryen".  The Targaryen first name with the most resonance in relation to Jon's plotline is Aemon ... eg Aemon telling Jon to kill the boy so that the man may be born - which Jon took rather literally.

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@Lord Varys @RumHam @UnmaskedLurker

I think the bed of blood was exaggerated on the show, RumHam mentioned that the blood was really high up on the sheets, I think that was just them showing that the blood had spread all over the fabric.  I do not believe it was a C-section.  Had it been, in a medieval setting, she would have basically died immediately once they cut her open.  I think she just had a super rough birth and that little Targaryen baby ripped her open coming out, same as Dany and Tyrion (although we know TYrion came out feet-first, so Joanna probably died the fastest).  But all through the short stories and history book we see that sometimes births go very wrong for the royal family.

 

I loved the last few pages of this thread, I have never thought about "Woe to the usurper if we had" in literal terms before.  I just kind of always took that as a little boasting shit-talk from Arthur Dayne.  But the idea that Rhaegar lost the battle just because he chose to protect his new baby with his best fighter instead of bringing him to the Trident.  Here's what I still dont get, why did it have to be a duel to the death? Arthur knew NEd, knew he was a good guy, yes he part of the rebellion against Aerys, but there is zero evidence that Ned ever had a problem with Rhaegar.  Couldnt Arthur and Ned have easily handled the situation with words instead of swords? I mean it was Ned's sister in the tower, did Arthur really think Ned was going to storm up there and kill his sister and nephew? like what is the motivation to keep Ned away from Lyanna? 

 

Anyway I still think the babies name is Aemon.  But there was a really interesting point raised about would the KG have left if the baby had been a girl? I think the answer is No because Rhaegar obviously put the seriousness of the situation into the minds of the KG, and Rhaegar obviously left before he knew the sex of the baby (he probably thought it would be a boy since the prophecy was about a prince, not a princess).  In Rhaegar's mind this child is the Neo, is the Harry Potter, the baby would be the prophesied prince born out of legend, and he clearly got his very strict point across to his 3 KG.  I just mean that we definitely see KG not following orders a few times in the books and making their own decisions, it's like these 3 were so much more steadfast and 100% loyal to whatever Rhaegar told them before he left, which to me was something like 'the fate of the world depends on this baby'.  Not just 'protect Lyanna and baby', IMO it was a waaaaaay more detailed order.

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@Suzanna Stormborn--

You bring up a lot of points and I don't have the time to address all of them (like why I think they would have sent at least one KG to Viserys if Jon had been born a girl), but I will address the issue of why it was a fight to the death. This issue has been discussed in the ma in RLJ thread many times. My best distillation of the argument that persuades me goes as follows:

From Arthur's point of view, he actually does know Ned that well. He knows that Ned's sister is dying. He knows that Ned will figure out that the baby is Rhaegar's child. He knows that Ned is loyal to Robert. He knows that the other children of Rhaegar were murdered by Robert's loyalists. He knows that Jon is a threat to Robert's reign if his true heritage becomes known. He might know about Ned's reputation for integrity, but that reputation could work against Ned, as Arthur might conclude that Ned would feel obligated to let Robert know about Jon. The 3KG believed that until they could get Jon to a location where Robert could not get to the baby, secrecy was the only way to ensure his safety. Ned could not be trusted to be an exception to this rule -- and there were 6 other men to consider as well. 

From Ned's point of view, the 3KG were standing in his way of getting to his sister and possibly holding her against her will. The 3KG were not going to give Ned any information to make him think otherwise for the reasons outlined above.

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19 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

The 3KG believed that until they could get Jon to a location where Robert could not get to the baby, secrecy was the only way to ensure his safety. 

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. (AGOT, Eddard VIII)

Ned ended up carrying on the work that the KG had started, fulfilling the same goals that had animated them. Another reason why the ToJ encounter is such a tragedy for all concerned.

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3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. (AGOT, Eddard VIII)

Ned ended up carrying on the work that the KG had started, fulfilling the same goals that had animated them. Another reason why the ToJ encounter is such a tragedy for all concerned.

All because of Rhaegar... I dislike him the most lol 

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On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 7:24 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 Here's what I still dont get, why did it have to be a duel to the death? Arthur knew NEd, knew he was a good guy, yes he part of the rebellion against Aerys, but there is zero evidence that Ned ever had a problem with Rhaegar.  Couldnt Arthur and Ned have easily handled the situation with words instead of swords? I mean it was Ned's sister in the tower, did Arthur really think Ned was going to storm up there and kill his sister and nephew? like what is the motivation to keep Ned away from Lyanna? 

The only thing that makes any sense to me is that the battle occurred when Ned was trying to leave with Jon rather than when Ned was trying to get in to see Lyanna. I believe the Kingsguard were ordered to take Jon into exile, but Lyanna begged Ned to not let that happen. I know I am in the minority on this issue, but Ned having to fight his way into see his sister makes no sense at all.

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Rhaegar most likely ordered them to not let anyone in to ensure the mother and child's safety. Ned was the brother, but he was also Robert Baratheon's best friend, who fought and rebelled against the Targaryens alongside him. He was the enemy. The Kingsguard had to obey orders and they couldn't take any risks. They couldn't know what Ned and his companions would do if they got inside under those circumstances. Family doesn't guarantee safety. For all they knew Ned would want to bring the Targaryen child to Robert or kill it on the spot. He was considered honourable but why take any chances when they can try and prevent them?

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When Lyanna whispers to Ned the name, I kept thinking she said "Harold".  Then I wondered if it was "Howland" that was whispered? 

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From S6E8:

Quote

VARYS: You made a pact with fanatics.

TYRION: I did. And it worked.

VARYS: If you shaved your beard with a straight razor, you’d say the razor worked. That doesn’t mean it won’t cut your throat.

TYRION: Spoken like a man who has never had to shave.

VARYS chuckles

I thought this exchange was interesting in light of the theory that Varys is a Targaryen/Blackfyre and is shaving his head to hide his distinctive Valyrian hair.

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Listening and listening again all I can hear is "Aegon", not "Aemon". Although I am still very much in favour of the "Aemon" theory wrt books, I am not so sure for the TV series.

1. No fAegon / Young Griff on the TV show.

2. Actually no Aegon (VI) at all on the TV show.

3. I have re-read the Rogue Prince lately (released in 2015 IIRC): 

Quote
And thus that dreadful year 120 AC ended as it begun, with a woman labouring in childbirth. (...). As the year waned, she brought forth a small but robust son, a pale princeling with dark purple eyes and pale silvery hair. She named him Aegon. Prince Daemon had at last a living son of his own blood … and this new prince, unlike his three half brothers, was plainly a Targaryen.
In King’s Landing, Queen Alicent grew most wroth when she learned the babe had been named Aegon, taking it for a slight against her own Aegon … which it most certainly was. (Hereafter, we will refer to Queen Alicent’s son as Aegon the Elder and Princess Rhaenyra’s son as Aegon the Younger).
Mmmmh. One Aegon against the other. And we know that the ultimate winner was the former, the younger... 

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5 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:
 

Interesting that he was "legitimized at birth" rather than them being married. Though that can't be how it plays out in the books as Martin has been clear that only a King can legitimize.

Edit: I just saw someone in another thread say the leaker claimed Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia. That makes more sense, though I'm surprised the show even bothered. They didn't seem to mind Sansa having two husbands at once.

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