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JonisHenryTudor

Why I believe Jon is NOT in need of resurrection/warging

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This has come up dozens of times in posts regarding Jon, and the recent episode discussions have "inspired" me to write this. That and every time it comes up, Bemused and I keep posting simultaneously about the same stuff, so might as well contain it... If it already has not sparked its own thread? Hopefully it has not, and if so...sorry...




So as the title suggests, I do not believe that Jon needs to be resurrected and I don't believe he wargs. I apologize for the sloppy format, I am typing this rather quickly.




1. Jon's injuries.



a. Wick Whittlestick slashes at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me.


- This is hardly a concerning wound. I have cut myself shaving, and you bleed easily in the neck/head area. The text also suggests a very minor wound.




b. "For the Watch" Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. .....Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He Punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. ......Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wretched it free.



- First. There is no indication of how deep it went. I believe it was also Bemused who pointed out that sticking, means the blade lodge into something. Now, I don't know about westerosi people, but we do not have bones in out bellies. The blade either missed his abdomen and hit his hip (which would hurt like hell) or it lodged in Jon's mail/armor.



- Second. He has to use some force to remove the blade. If it does hit his abdomen, it obviously lodged in his armor. Now. Daggers are fairly small bladed. Depending on what Jon was wearing, it may not have penetrated much at all. Or Marsh missed his belly and hit his hip which is a nasty wound, but nothing one would die from.





****Before I continue. We have two wounds that are not necessarily too bad. The neck shot is little more than a scratch, and the gut shot is not necessarily bad either. We know Marsh stabbed Jon with a dagger, but based on the words Martin used it seems that it is a shallow wound or Marsh missed his belly altogether.




C. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow.



- No blood, no visual, only assumptions. Just before that line, Jon whispers "Ghost". Now someone in dire need may think, I wish so and so was here, or they may think of someone. Jon does not, he actually mutters Ghost's name. That is highly suggestive that Ghost is on site. Now this leads into something else BEMUSED said. Jon is taken in the back and falls face first, which suggests that Jon could not see what happened behind him. He assumed that he was hit with a dagger because of the first three attacks. It could easily be Ghost knocking Jon down, or someone in the surrounding area.



- But for sake of argument, let's pretend a dagger nails Jon in the back.





As he was struggling to free his axe from the dead man's rib cage, a spear jabbed him between the shoulder blades.


Feast for Crows (FfC) page 428 Victarion ( the Reaver)





- Victarion was hit in the back with a spear that likely has a longer blade, and the attacker probably had more leverage to ram it in. He was jabbed which clearly shows that he was hit with the blade dead on. Again we don't know how deep it went, but Victarion took a blow in the same spot as Jon. Victarion does not die from the wound.



Back to Jon. If Jon is wearing mail likely covered by a heavy cloak, it is possible that a dagger would not go very deep at all. But it is curious that Martin fails to mention blood at all in that blow, but he does with the first, and the second the wound is smoking.




2. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...



- First, ... is widely accepted as a sign for to be continued (TBC). But I think we all get that.



-There is quite a bit of information in this line, however. It is my opinion that Jon does not feel the 4th knife for two reasons. The first is that Ghost is there and is likely creating a pretty nasty detraction. Also in the same paragraph, immediately after the gut shot, Jon's wound begins smoking. He sees Ghost and is suddenly hit from behind. Dagger or pushed, your choice. Then nothing. I am going to suggest that this entire attack happened fairly rapidly, as in less than a minute. From the time Jon's wound is smoking to seeing Ghost to hitting the ground, I will suggest boldly that perhaps only 15 seconds pass?



- Not feeling the fourth knife. If you accept that Ghost is there, obviously the attackers are drawn away from Jon. It is also likely that others, friendlies, are also nearby.



- BUT the smoke could have also forced the attack to halt. The men most likely would have been scared shitless by the sight of smoke bellowing from Jon's wounds. That is an alternative explanation.



- Now the Only the cold... This In my opinion (IMO) is also suggests that the White Walkers/Others have arrived. As LadyB and others have pointed out, dead people do not feel anything let alone the cold. If the WW/Others have indeed arrived, that would certainly distract the attackers and explain not feeling the 4th knife. There are three plausible explanations for Jon not feeling a 4th knife, and I am also of the opinion that a 4th never comes.






Now Aemon's Kill the Boy, become the Man statement. (though this section is a bit iffy...but worth a mention)



I personally think the prologue with Varamyr is red herring (RH). At least it offers hope for readers..I don't think Jon wargs to live, or rather wargs so he can live inside ghost until a resurrection. I also dislike the resurrection idea because it has been overused in the story IMO.



I do believe the rebirth is metaphorical and not literal. Let's consider one example of rebirth. In Judeo-Christian beliefs, the baptism represents rebirth. In the New testament (NT), we see John the Baptist using water to wash or cleanse the person for baptism. Now back to the text. After Jon is stabbed here are the sequence of events.



Wound is smoking, sees Ghost, pain washes over him, hit and falls into snow, then feels only cold. If you take Jon as Azor Ahai Reborn (AAR), there is the idea of rebirth. Now add the tears from Marsh in. Tears are salty. Smoky wound. Everybody has already noticed that, so this is not new. BUT. The idea that the pain is washing over him certainly suggests a final cleansing or step into a rebirth. Just as the Baptism figuratively cleanses a person and when they arise they are "reborn" spiritually, Jon has fallen into the snow in the midst of Smoke and Salt and the pain has figuratively cleansed him in a sort of rebirth.



So to simplify. Smoke + tears + washing = metaphorical rebirth, not literal.





Conclusion: Again I apologize for the sloppy format, etc, but I wrote this up rather quickly. Hopefully I picked some of the errors out.... :(




Based on the evidence, Jon has two wounds for sure, perhaps a third. Those wounds are not necessarily deep or even fatal. I think the prologue and resurrection themes throughout are perhaps RH or, at the very least, a way for Martin to keep people thinking since most people have figured out RL=J. What this means is that Jon is probably not dead or even badly injured. The ... universally is a TBC notice. I think the scene picks up and chaos has broken out at Castle Black (CB). This may be the end of the wall. It also may be the arrival of the WW's. I do believe that the scene will pick up from either another pov or Jon's and we will get the rest of the scene. I think what we got in DwD is a tiny sliver of a larger conflict at the wall.



It is also possible, however, that friendlies nullified the attackers and Jon's smoking wounds are causing quite a spectacle at CB. This might be where Mel steps in. The combination of everything will lead to a metaphorical rebirth, and Mel is not there for a resurrection; instead, just as we expect Tyrion to advise Dany, Mel should be able to explain the smoking wound. This could lead to a number of very uncomfortable questions from Jon's colleagues, Mel, and others. Perhaps we don't need a witness, just logical deduction. If Jon knows of the story between L+R, they may be able to fit enough pieces together and finally arrive at one conclusion. Jon is the product of RL. But that is not really the intent here. Whatever takes shape in the aftermath, I do not believe that Jon necessarily needs to warg or need a resurrection of sorts. I admit that it could be possible, and I will not write anything off until Martin tells us, but it seems to me that Jon will not need assistance.





Have at it...


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Agreed. It makes no sense to leave off with "is Jon alive or isn't he?" when you just plan on him dying anyway...a much better cliffhanger is "OMG, Jon is dead!!!"

And the language surrounding the event is very vague.

So yeah, I don't think he's dead yet either. I do believe he will warg Ghost, simply because there is so much evidence supporting that scenario.

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I like the WW arriving angle. The sudden drop in temperature would explain the "smoke" coming off his wounds.

Yeah, I really want Jon to be revived by the Others, or at least through ice magic of some sort. Parallel Dany from AGOT.

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I do agree, I don't think he's actually dead yet.

I think some of the AA Reborn stuff is a stretch though. Especially how much it was smoking, people noticing it, the tears, anybody that talks about Ser Patricks sigil as the bleeding star (I know u didn't but I see this a lot with these Marsh tears/wound smoke arguments).

I just don't think Jon is going to be AAR. I think he is the dragon waking from stone (whether it is literally resurrection or just finding out about his Targ ancestory, etc.). AAR is supposed to wake dragons from stone, so of Jon is the one waking he isn't the one doing the waking. IMO anyway.

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Why I believe his throat he was slashed pretty bad and that he is going to need resurrection, or just die and live through ghost.

"A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often,even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain" -the queens hand, which is the chapter right after the stabbing chapter. I also have been known to say that the thin red slash is the beginning of Jon's comet.

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I do agree, I don't think he's actually dead yet.

I think some of the AA Reborn stuff is a stretch though. Especially how much it was smoking, people noticing it, the tears, anybody that talks about Ser Patricks sigil as the bleeding star (I know u didn't but I see this a lot with these Marsh tears/wound smoke arguments).

I just don't think Jon is going to be AAR. I think he is the dragon waking from stone (whether it is literally resurrection or just finding out about his Targ ancestory, etc.). AAR is supposed to wake dragons from stone, so of Jon is the one waking he isn't the one doing the waking. IMO anyway.

Yes I know I mentioned bits of it. I tried to stay away from the A.A. stuff, and focus more or less on Jon's condition. It seems of late that many people are suggesting that he is dead and needs some form of resurrection. All of that is possible of course, and I am not dismissing it.

Agreed. It makes no sense to leave off with "is Jon alive or isn't he?" when you just plan on him dying anyway...a much better cliffhanger is "OMG, Jon is dead!!!"

And the language surrounding the event is very vague.

So yeah, I don't think he's dead yet either. I do believe he will warg Ghost, simply because there is so much evidence supporting that scenario.

Yes I should have been a bit clearer there. I think it is possible that he wargs ghost, but from my pov I don't necessarily think he needs to do it to live. I sort of see Jon as injured, but not to the point where he needs "emergent care" for a lack of a better term.

Why I believe his throat he was slashed pretty bad and that he is going to need resurrection, or just die and live through ghost.

"A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often,even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain" -the queens hand, which is the chapter right after the stabbing chapter. I also have been known to say that the thin red slash is the beginning of Jon's comet.

No that is a fair assessment, but in the chapter the narration suggests that Jon was barely grazed. The only thing I might suggest otherwise is that a shallow wound in very cold temps would cause one's blood to coagulate much faster (even people with blood conditions, though I doubt Martin has characters with BC's). If his throat was cut deeper, I would expect Martin to recreated that sort of scenario, but it appears to be lacking. Also Jon does not appear to be concerned for his neck wound, even though as I suggest this all occurs within seconds. So it is possible.

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Also, there is an interesting passage in the last dany chapter.

Context, she walked away from dragon stone, and "night was falling fast" and she heard a wolf howling in the distance, making her feel sad, and then she sleeps near a ruined wall and wakes up. "... She had bites all over her, little red bumps, itchy and inflamed. "Where did they all com from?"... She knocked them off and crushed them under her bare feet. There were so many...

It turned out that there anthill was on the other side of her wall. She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and find her. To them thes tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the wall of westeros."

I'm sorry I skipped some parts in the passage, but I believe them to be filler, so I trimmed the fat. I think this might be a hint that the others and there army actually got past the wall and I think it's interesting that dany thinks of the wall of westeros when thinking about the ants climbing it.

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Yes I know I mentioned bits of it. I tried to stay away from the A.A. stuff, and focus more or less on Jon's condition. It seems of late that many people are suggesting that he is dead and needs some form of resurrection. All of that is possible of course, and I am not dismissing it.

Yes I should have been a bit clearer there. I think it is possible that he wargs ghost, but from my pov I don't necessarily think he needs to do it to live. I sort of see Jon as injured, but not to the point where he needs "emergent care" for a lack of a better term.

No that is a fair assessment, but in the chapter the narration suggests that Jon was barely grazed. The only thing I might suggest otherwise is that a shallow wound in very cold temps would cause one's blood to coagulate much faster (even people with blood conditions, though I doubt Martin has characters with BC's). If his throat was cut deeper, I would expect Martin to recreated that sort of scenario, but it appears to be lacking. Also Jon does not appear to be concerned for his neck wound, even though as I suggest this all occurs within seconds. So it is possible.

I always thought it was barely a graze until I my 3rd reread and I read the barristan chapter right after. I think it's possible that jon got it wrong but I won't be too upset if it turns out to be a tiny little cat scratch on his neck. George might of written it like that to keep us on our toes for all I know

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I think Jon will warg into Ghost as hinted in Varamyr's prologue, but I agree he won't be dead. I have a theory about how it goes.


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This is an epic cliffhanger. Is he alive? Dead? Is he living in ghost? We know that when someone is living in a beast they slowly lose there humanitty so how long can jon survive as a wolf? So many possibilities i cant wait for the WoW.

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You use too many abbreviations

Sorry I try not to abbreviate unless I have written the word out previous, bad habit.....

I will expand those.

I think Jon will warg into Ghost as hinted in Varamyr's prologue, but I agree he won't be dead. I have a theory about how it goes.

Great. I will read this.

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I do agree that "holy shit, Jon's dead and is a wolf!" would've been a great ending for the book, tying in neatly with the opening. The fact that it didn't suggests a red herring - but Martin could just be double-bluffing us. (Is that the word?)



It's also possible that Jon being simply dead would've been a great cliffhanger, too - but again, Martin could be trying to defy expectations. He's already established that the dead can come back to life. Had Jon actually been confirmed dead we would all still be having the same discussion.



In other words, I don't know, but I appreciate the OP making the point that he might not even die. I do think - or hope, rather - that this incident will cause Jon, finally, to embrace his wargliness. Perhaps, in extremis, he reaches out to Ghost to save himself: perhaps the next book will open with a chapter from Ghost, who will rescue an unconscious Jon before order is restored and Jon is nursed back to health. Possibly by the wildlings, who take over Castle Black. Alright, now I'm reaching


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