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JonisHenryTudor

Why I believe Jon is NOT in need of resurrection/warging

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just because you dislike resurrection doesn't mean it won't happen

Did not say that. It was a side-note, and I gave a legitimate reason why. It has been overused in the books already, at least IMO. I did not say that it would not occur because I disliked it. That would be silly... The point there was that it lost its uniqueness long ago.

I do agree that "holy shit, Jon's dead and is a wolf!" would've been a great ending for the book, tying in neatly with the opening. The fact that it didn't suggests a red herring - but Martin could just be double-bluffing us. (Is that the word?)

It's also possible that Jon being simply dead would've been a great cliffhanger, too - but again, Martin could be trying to defy expectations. He's already established that the dead can come back to life. Had Jon actually been confirmed dead we would all still be having the same discussion.

In other words, I don't know, but I appreciate the OP making the point that he might not even die. I do think - or hope, rather - that this incident will cause Jon, finally, to embrace his wargliness. Perhaps, in extremis, he reaches out to Ghost to save himself: perhaps the next book will open with a chapter from Ghost, who will rescue an unconscious Jon before order is restored and Jon is nursed back to health. Possibly by the wildlings, who take over Castle Black. Alright, now I'm reaching

Hyphenated, it works ;). Besides were allowed to create new vocabulary and shuffle it into a jargon pot. :cheers: .

If this is the case, I just hope Martin does not follow in Robin Hobb's ste.ps :cool4:

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I honestly think idea of Jon becoming wolf is bad and lazy. I think wounded/Red God/ The Other are much better solutions. Now, I don't see why would they throw him into the woods for White Walkers, they probably understand he would be revived by them. We also saw few revivals by Red God, so that is also a bit lazy.



Wounded may be best and most logical conclusion, maybe his wounds are critical and Mel helps him with her magic, maybe his wounds are not even critical and he just...Well, survives. Maybe he ends up in a coma , who knows, maybe GRRM will surprise us.


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If this is the case, I just hope Martin does not follow in Robin Hobb's ste.ps :cool4:

:cheers:

I haven't read Robin Hobb, what's his deal? Or her deal. I... I don't even know

Wounded may be best and most logical conclusion...

Good point. Bran and Jaime's characters have already shown us that characters can find new ways to fight once injured, and Martin is interested in subverting fantasy cliches: maybe he's been setting Jon up as the Chosen One with the Magic Sword, only to pull the rug from underneath us.

After all, thinking about those fantasy stories more realistically, a war is won by an army, and one sword more or less doesn't make much difference, even if it is magic. Jon's even been shown to not be a particularly fantastic swordsman (Halfhand and Mance both were much better, as is Leathers). Jon's real worth isn't his ability to fight, it's his ability to lead. Also his ability to control the mind of a giant wolf. Maybe these skills will become far more important in the war to come.

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:cheers:

I haven't read Robin Hobb, what's his deal? Or her deal. I... I don't even know

Well. If you have not read her Farseer Trilogy, I would recommend it. It is pretty good. Having said that I don't want to spoil anything.

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I always thought it was barely a graze until I my 3rd reread and I read the barristan chapter right after. I think it's possible that jon got it wrong but I won't be too upset if it turns out to be a tiny little cat scratch on his neck. George might of written it like that to keep us on our toes for all I know

I think you were right on your first read. ;) We are told point blank that it was a graze, and Jon was able to go on to disarm Wick on Wick's second try. If that had been a serious wound, the blood would not be "welling", but spurting, or as described in other throat cuttings..

From ACoK : ... for an instant it seemed that Jon’s slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

Ghost’s muzzle was dripping red, but only the point of the bastard blade was stained, the last half inch.

From ADWD : ... the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Jon's throat wound cannot be serious at all, IMO. It only seemed that Jon's slash hadn't touched Qhorin, and only for an instant . Qhorin was in no condition to be grabbing anyone's arm and twisting it until they dropped their weapon. Jon was.

I'd read the following differently.. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

Wick slashed at Jon... a graze might leave a thin red slash...

Why might the sun appear ? Because it is rising ..but Barristan only thinks it "might" because it's been raining and the sky is overcast. It's cloudy. ...Cloudy or not, the sun (or son) will rise, even though Barristan may not be able to see it. Then he brings us back to blood welling... He thinks, "even with a deep cut" .. That tells us that blood can well from a shallow cut ,and pain can come from a shallow cut as well.. In fact, that's what's given, here .. The sense of that thought is .. Often, with a shallow cut (understood), and even with a deep cut , the blood comes before the pain.

And here's a little something from Barristan's previous chapter...

Blood welled from Khrazz’s wounds. That only seemed to make him wilder.

And I'd like to remind everyone of this (again), from ASoS...

"... Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow....

*****

.... Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him. Enough!”..."

This is perhaps the clearest of Jon's "berserker" or "wakening dragon" moments, and as in the assassination attempt, it all begins with a slash to a potentially deadly target area.

Now, I'd ask us to remember that Jon has experienced enhanced senses when Ghost is near, but he's always put up mental barriers to anything further.. "No, I'm a man , not a wolf" (paraphrase) . However, I'd think his normal barriers would be down at the moment..

The part I left out of the quote about his match with Emmett (because of length) was a flashback to something from his childhood that he felt was unjust. (I think he'd feel that the attack on himself and Wun-Wun was unjust as well.) Also,Jon could taste blood in his mouth. This, too, may have triggered his ferocious counter attack on Emmett.

In Jon's final ADWD chapter, Ghost tried to bite Mully (off page) at the beginning of this very chapter, and he has bitten Jon's attackers before (see Qhorin). So.. where is he?

There are any number of reasonable ways he could have gotten out of Jon's quarters. Just to name a few ... Satin may have returned..Devan was mentioned early in the chapter and Mel uses him to run errands. He's been sent on errands to Jon's quarters before.. In Jon's previous chapter to this one, Dryn was made his page and could also have gone to Jon's quarters...

Ghost was already in a mood to bite, and if he does bite anyone.. Jon will taste the blood in his mouth (as we know both Bran and Arya do while warging, or even in wolf dreams). Will it trigger something this time? (I think it would...)

I think there's a very good chance Jon won't be out of the action. I'm sure he will make a breakthrough as far as warging is concerned ( but not a lengthy indoctrination while comatose), and obviously, he will need some patching up.

OP- Once more into the breach... :cheers:

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GRRM has this thing where he makes a Stark go through a traumatic event and they'll come out a warg...



Jon didn't want to be a warg, was actively denying what he was/fighting it, and this is GRRM's way of not giving him a chance.



He'll for sure learn now, and might even finish his dream and find out who his mom is, but no, he's not dead.



I'm not sure if I believe the Others are attacking or not, because there might be another Free Folk attack happening at the Shadow Tower (?) first, and I'm expecting a lot of chaos at Castle Black first, but it would sure be exciting to see the attack beginning toward the middle-ish of the next book (all those other Meereen things that got cut need to be resolved first, I guess. And perhaps the battle there is a clue that the BIG one at the Wall won't happen yet, only at the end of the next book.)


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GRRM has this thing where he makes a Stark go through a traumatic event and they'll come out a warg...

Jon didn't want to be a warg, was actively denying what he was/fighting it, and this is GRRM's way of not giving him a chance.

He'll for sure learn now, and might even finish his dream and find out who his mom is, but no, he's not dead.

I'm not sure if I believe the Others are attacking or not, because there might be another Free Folk attack happening at the Shadow Tower (?) first, and I'm expecting a lot of chaos at Castle Black first, but it would sure be exciting to see the attack beginning toward the middle-ish of the next book (all those other Meereen things that got cut need to be resolved first, I guess. And perhaps the battle there is a clue that the BIG one at the Wall won't happen yet, only at the end of the next book.)

I would love that to happen. Maybe he passes out and then wargs Ghost. That would work just fine and he doesn´t even have to be dead.

I´ve always had trouble believing in the effectiveness of daggers against a man in leather, probably ringmail and a heavy coat (because it´s bloody freezing out there!). Most likely it´s this situation.

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First off:: AA being reborn amongst salt & smoke is NOT a smoking wound & tears... That would be pretty low quality writing... It might work for a children's book & ASOIAF is not aimed at children...

C. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow.

- No blood, no visual, only assumptions. Just before that line, Jon whispers "Ghost". Now someone in dire need may think, I wish so and so was here, or they may think of someone. Jon does not, he actually mutters Ghost's name. That is highly suggestive that Ghost is on site. Now this leads into something else BEMUSED said. Jon is taken in the back and falls face first, which suggests that Jon could not see what happened behind him. He assumed that he was hit with a dagger because of the first three attacks. It could easily be Ghost knocking Jon down, or someone in the surrounding area.

Do you find it interesting that when Varamyr (a warg) died, he went into his wolf?

Do you find it interesting that when Rob (a warg) died, his last words were "Grey Wind"? And yet Grey Wind was not in proximity to Rob...

These two facts seem to suggest that Jon's last word "Ghost" means something more than 'Ghost has arrived to save the day'...

---

Didn't GRRM go out of his way to let the reader know that Jon's mail was being repaired & that he was not wearing it???

---

No Blood because Jon cannot see behind his back...


I personally think the prologue with Varamyr is red herring (RH). At least it offers hope for readers..I don't think Jon wargs to live, or rather wargs so he can live inside ghost until a resurrection. I also dislike the resurrection idea because it has been overused in the story IMO.

The resurrection theme is not overused in my opinion... The Reader is being slowly prepared to eventually accept a "Grand Resurrection", which will probably take place in book 7 of 9 total books...

---

Jon is dead... He will spend TWOW separated from his body...

  1. Mel just got word that Stannis is dead.
  2. She will realize that 'Snow' in her visions is AAR... & in her mind, AAR is Stannis...
  3. She will use the same spell that MMD used to raise Khal Drogo from the dead, thinking that Stannis will come back in Jon's body, but Stannis is not dead...
  4. Meanwhile Jon/Ghost & Val travel North of the wall
  5. Jon's body is resurrected, but Jon can't 'feel' it because the Wall's Wards are blocking his link to his body.
  6. Jon's body is in a coma-like state just like Khal Drogo's was...
  7. Instead of leaving him outside to stare at the sun, Mel throws his living body into the ice cells.
  8. Snow drifts over the doors to ice cells as described in DETAIL in ADWDs, Jon's body freezes & is forgotten about until the next book...
  9. Jon/Ghost travels to the Heart of Winter, finds Benjin, learns that the Others ARE Starks...
  10. I could go on... It actually becomes fairly predictable when you listen to the Audiobooks OVER & OVER & OVER again for 5 years...

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Agreed. It makes no sense to leave off with "is Jon alive or isn't he?" when you just plan on him dying anyway...a much better cliffhanger is "OMG, Jon is dead!!!"

Actually, it makes perfect sense... GRRM is not boxing himself into a corner... Martin is highly skilled at leaving as many options open for his future novels as possible...

GRRM is not committed at this point to Jon being dead or alive, so any new ideas that he might conjure up that require that Jon lives can still be explored...

Quinten Martell's chapters were written in such a way that it could either have been Quinten or the Tattered Prince who was burned beyond recognition...

I think he learned this lesson from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time Series... So the cliffhanger actually makes perfect sense...

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First off:: AA being reborn amongst salt & smoke is NOT a smoking wound & tears... That would be pretty low quality writing... It might work for a children's book & ASOIAF is not aimed at children...

Do you find it interesting that when Varamyr (a warg) died, he went into his wolf?

Do you find it interesting that when Rob (a warg) died, his last words were "Grey Wind"? And yet Grey Wind was not in proximity to Rob...

These two facts seem to suggest that Jon's last word "Ghost" means something more than 'Ghost has arrived to save the day'...

---

Didn't GRRM go out of his way to let the reader know that Jon's mail was being repaired & that he was not wearing it???

---

No Blood because Jon cannot see behind his back...

The resurrection theme is not overused in my opinion... The Reader is being slowly prepared to eventually accept a "Grand Resurrection", which will probably take place in book 7 of 9 total books...

---

Jon is dead... He will spend TWOW separated from his body...

  1. Mel just got word that Stannis is dead.
  2. She will realize that 'Snow' in her visions is AAR... & in her mind, AAR is Stannis...
  3. She will use the same spell that MMD used to raise Khal Drogo from the dead, thinking that Stannis will come back in Jon's body, but Stannis is not dead...
  4. Meanwhile Jon/Ghost & Val travel North of the wall
  5. Jon's body is resurrected, but Jon can't 'feel' it because the Wall's Wards are blocking his link to his body.
  6. Jon's body is in a coma-like state just like Khal Drogo's was...
  7. Instead of leaving him outside to stare at the sun, Mel throws his living body into the ice cells.
  8. Snow drifts over the doors to ice cells as described in DETAIL in ADWDs, Jon's body freezes & is forgotten about until the next book...
  9. Jon/Ghost travels to the Heart of Winter, finds Benjin, learns that the Others ARE Starks...
  10. I could go on... It actually becomes fairly predictable when you listen to the Audiobooks OVER & OVER & OVER again for 5 years...

I am just curious. Where are you getting 9 books?

Bold 1 - I suppose that is more a matter of opinion. Prophesies (even medieval prophesies) were really vague and touch on certain elements. Modern day fortune tellers (not suggesting that I believe them) well call out vague references as well. The idea behind a prophet or psychic is that they receive hazy images with clues that cannot be fully understood until the prophesied event actually occurs or so people think. Even the prophecy that Joan D'Arc's contemporaries relied on (Venerable Bede, etc) were not clear and those who believed in Joan sort of went "Oh yes it's her, she sort of fits it". So no I do not think it would be lazy writing as much as it is the nature of the prophesy and the information gleaned from the vision, etc.

[Possible spoiler for those who have not red the Farseer Trilogy]

Yes I get the Valamyr and Robb stuff, but I am not sure that will happen exactly here. For me, those scenes stand out as huge beacons of light, and soon as Jon is stabbed people immediately turn to that. Which is why I have a tendency to see it as RH. Also it is very, very Hobbish. I have a difficult time believing that Martin will basically take Hobb's chapters and make them Jon. Fitz lives in his wolf for a long time before he is completely healed at the beginning of the second book.

[spoiler ended]

Bold 2 - yes he cannot see his back. But Martin is pretty consistent about mentioning blood and pain even in when the character cannot see the wound. But I will give you that there could possibly be blood.

Bold 3 - Again this one is a matter of opinion, and I am sure there are plenty of people in your boat who feel the same. I personally think between Beric, LSH, Robert Strong, and for that matter the wights (though these are more or less a different sort) there is plenty of resurrection incidents in the story. SInce I do think there is too much, I think Martin goes a different direction. But that is more or less my opinion on resurrection. I also personally feel that, if were discussion amateur writing, that having to have 3,4,5 cases of resurrection to prepare readers for a big one kind of fits that bill. It would seem much more palatable if the concept was out of reach and somewhat of a myth in Westeros derived by the first men or CotF or something, and then somehow it occurs in the north. "Oh dam it can happen". Instead of "See people I have brought all these people back to life, so don't worry I can bring Jon back to". Again everyone has an opinion on this matter and personal taste, but for me that is terrible. If it happens, it happens. Just an opinion. However, that is not the foundation to my argument, it is the fact that the wounds are not as dreadful as one may think.

I forgot one thing- Jon's mail/armor - Perhaps. But that doesn't explain why Jon had a difficult time dislodging the dagger from his body. Unless of course it was a serrated blade, but that would just shred his gut and everything in it to pieces if he is wrenching it free. If he has no mail on, then Marsh hit a bone, which would be Jon's hip, not his belly. Or he hit his belt, which is probably boiled leather with some metal on it. If He was stabbed in the hip, he is fine unless the blade nicked an artery. If it hit the belt, well. I would implore you to purchase a leather belt and buy a dagger (6-8 inch blade) and try and stab through it. It is not going to go very deep. Even then, let's for sake of argument say that all hit are open wounds. Why did Jon not think about the wound in his back, and why did he not grab for his neck or belly? Also when Cat is wounded in the back, she complains that her back is on fire. She of course wore no mail, so if Jon was stabbed between the blades I would imagine he would do more than grunt. Most people grunt when they are hit from behind, but how many women going through natural labor do you hear "grunting" throughout the process? My experience in hospitals is a significant amount of screaming. Obviously a different scenario and different pain, but I would imagine Jon would at least feel some sort of pain, yet he does not. He falls to the ground.

Unless he dies and is resurrected, he won't be freed from his vows to the Watch.

Unless the watch is destroyed and the wall is breached. Even then when the WW/Others come over the wall, I am pretty sure that petty laws, etc in peace time are going to go right out the window. There are plenty of ways for Jon to "leave" the watch without dying. Again your option is certainly one way it can happen. But in complete chaos, people are going to need leaders and they are not going to punish people for leading the wrong group. So if Jon leads a large coalition force in the north of wildlings, northerns, and NW men, he probably doesn't need to be relieved from his vows. The only way that I see that Jon NEEDS to be released, is if you buy the argument that Jon will confront Dany in battle, and even then she would represent an invading force and technically he would be protecting the realm. The only thing Jon would need absolution for is taking the IT. BUT when all is said and done, most people agree that there will be a shift in politics, etc. If Jon does lead Westerosi against the threat, how many people do you think are going to oppose him leaving the NW for the IT? Not suggesting that this will happen, only pointing out that Jon can still do much of what he needs to do while still technically being a member of the NW. If there is no Wall, where are the NW going to hole up at? Mole Town? Most likely those who have the courage will band together under their leader and combine with the northern lords and people.

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I think you were right on your first read. ;) We are told point blank that it was a graze, and Jon was able to go on to disarm Wick on Wick's second try. If that had been a serious wound, the blood would not be "welling", but spurting, or as described in other throat cuttings..

From ACoK : ... for an instant it seemed that Jon’s slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

Ghost’s muzzle was dripping red, but only the point of the bastard blade was stained, the last half inch.

From ADWD : ... the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Jon's throat wound cannot be serious at all, IMO. It only seemed that Jon's slash hadn't touched Qhorin, and only for an instant . Qhorin was in no condition to be grabbing anyone's arm and twisting it until they dropped their weapon. Jon was.

I'd read the following differently.. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

Wick slashed at Jon... a graze might leave a thin red slash...

Why might the sun appear ? Because it is rising ..but Barristan only thinks it "might" because it's been raining and the sky is overcast. It's cloudy. ...Cloudy or not, the sun (or son) will rise, even though Barristan may not be able to see it. Then he brings us back to blood welling... He thinks, "even with a deep cut" .. That tells us that blood can well from a shallow cut ,and pain can come from a shallow cut as well.. In fact, that's what's given, here .. The sense of that thought is .. Often, with a shallow cut (understood), and even with a deep cut , the blood comes before the pain.

And here's a little something from Barristan's previous chapter...

Blood welled from Khrazz’s wounds. That only seemed to make him wilder.

And I'd like to remind everyone of this (again), from ASoS...

"... Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow....

*****

.... Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him. Enough!”..."

This is perhaps the clearest of Jon's "berserker" or "wakening dragon" moments, and as in the assassination attempt, it all begins with a slash to a potentially deadly target area.

Now, I'd ask us to remember that Jon has experienced enhanced senses when Ghost is near, but he's always put up mental barriers to anything further.. "No, I'm a man , not a wolf" (paraphrase) . However, I'd think his normal barriers would be down at the moment..

The part I left out of the quote about his match with Emmett (because of length) was a flashback to something from his childhood that he felt was unjust. (I think he'd feel that the attack on himself and Wun-Wun was unjust as well.) Also,Jon could taste blood in his mouth. This, too, may have triggered his ferocious counter attack on Emmett.

In Jon's final ADWD chapter, Ghost tried to bite Mully (off page) at the beginning of this very chapter, and he has bitten Jon's attackers before (see Qhorin). So.. where is he?

There are any number of reasonable ways he could have gotten out of Jon's quarters. Just to name a few ... Satin may have returned..Devan was mentioned early in the chapter and Mel uses him to run errands. He's been sent on errands to Jon's quarters before.. In Jon's previous chapter to this one, Dryn was made his page and could also have gone to Jon's quarters...

Ghost was already in a mood to bite, and if he does bite anyone.. Jon will taste the blood in his mouth (as we know both Bran and Arya do while warging, or even in wolf dreams). Will it trigger something this time? (I think it would...)

I think there's a very good chance Jon won't be out of the action. I'm sure he will make a breakthrough as far as warging is concerned ( but not a lengthy indoctrination while comatose), and obviously, he will need some patching up.

OP- Once more into the breach... :cheers:

:cheers: I like the "berserker" stuff. I had never thought of that.

Obviously adrenalin causes people to react different, but most people have the tendency to grab for nasty wounds. I took a ball to my hip on the pitchers mound, and the first thing I did was grab my hip. A friend took one to the face, and the first thing he did was grab his jaw. When Jon takes an arrow from Ygritte, he does not realize it until later. But in that case he was fleeing and did not know that he had an arrow in his leg. In this scene he knows the attackers stabbed him, yet he seems to not be concerned about the wounds. That just seems odd to me.

Not to get too far off topic, one goalie, Clint Malarchuk took a shot to the throat ( I believe his skates) and cut into his carotid artery. He immediately grab his throat as blood was spewing everywhere. I should also mention these are physiologically located on the sides of one's neck. If the wound was deep enough it likely would have nicked the artery, and Jon as you pointed out would not be grabbing for a sword or disarming people.

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What if Jon's recovery is like Bran's? He spent some time in a coma state, balancing between life and death, while his consciusness is warging Ghost.



Bran, Ned, Tyrion, Arya, Brienne, Theon. All suffered wounds that left their chapters with cliffhangers, and they all lived through it. I agree Jon's wounds are maybe more life-threating, but we don't know for sure.


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1. Do you find it interesting that when Varamyr (a warg) died, he went into his wolf?

2. Do you find it interesting that when Rob (a warg) died, his last words were "Grey Wind"? And yet Grey Wind was not in proximity to Rob...

These two facts seem to suggest that Jon's last word "Ghost" means something more than 'Ghost has arrived to save the day'...

---

3. Didn't GRRM go out of his way to let the reader know that Jon's mail was being repaired & that he was not wearing it???

1 and 2 are red herrings, or at least misdirection , in my opinion.

I find it much more interesting and portenteous that Varamyr has gone onto One-eye, who has now been absorbed into a pack by Summer. If Jon should meet them at some future point, I think the spirit of Varamyr might be strong enough for One-eye to break with his pack leader and attack Jon (mind you, I don't think he'd last long if he did.)

And yes, we know Robb was dying. He was probably also concerned for Grey Wolf, whose howls could be heard.

Catelyn heard the crash of distant battle, and closer the wild howling of a wolf. Grey Wind, she remembered too late. ...Robb was grievously wounded but alive, at this point, and he could hear it too.. Then Roose steps in and finishes him.

There are no hints, clues, or exercises in reasoning existing in the text to lead us to entertain any possibility other than Robb's death. But there is a host of mitigating clues, hints, etc. in the case of Jon.Too many to be disregarded. So Jon's whispered "Ghost," remains entirely ambiguous.

As for 3... Nice try at twisting a clue about to mean the opposite, but it won't work. When the "half finished" shirt of mail on the workbench in Jon's quarters is mentioned, it was just before Jon sent Sam to Oldtown. Weeks and months have passed and Jon has been in numerous dangerous situations since then. To suggest that it's still there unfinished, and that Jon wouldn't be wearing any (also ignoring his advice to others about wearing more protection and when it's advisable to wear mail and the ready availability of mail shirts) is just not reasonable.

Unless he dies and is resurrected, he won't be freed from his vows to the Watch.

This is a straw clutched at by fans trying to see a way out for Jon, but it's not the only way. Apparently there is some other more rational solution ... GRRM is holding it back (so far), but a precedent exists..

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath

"Yes, there have been a few other cases, but they have been very rare. Such vows are taken very seriously." ...GRRM.

I'd expect if the former case(s) involved resurrection from death, it would have been remembered, in some form. (like one of Old Nan's stories, e.g.)

ETA: Re: the Robb/Jon comparison above.. To be fair, Robb had no way of knowing the "second life" was even possible and he and grey Wind probably died pretty much simultaneously. So how can we use his death as a definitive clue ?

OTOH, Jon has been told by Varamyr that some part of Orell lives on in his eagle, and Varamyr can feel his hatred...but really, that this one possibility should outweigh all the other clues that have been assiduously planted is not sensible, to me.

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I am just curious. Where are you getting 9 books?

One of the European publishers has already let it slip that there will be more than 2 books remaining...

The Story is still expanding... there are so many loose ends to tie up that it will take at least 3000 or more pages...

There's just too much story left to tell & I like to monitor GRRM Writing style, techniques & whatnot; and there is just no way he gets it finished in under 9 books... I have never understood why this observation (9 books) always gets so much resistance...

Bold 1 - I suppose that is more a matter of opinion. Prophesies (even medieval prophesies) were really vague and touch on certain elements. Modern day fortune tellers (not suggesting that I believe them) well call out vague references as well. The idea behind a prophet or psychic is that they receive hazy images with clues that cannot be fully understood until the prophesied event actually occurs or so people think. Even the prophecy that Joan D'Arc's contemporaries relied on (Venerable Bede, etc) were not clear and those who believed in Joan sort of went "Oh yes it's her, she sort of fits it". So no I do not think it would be lazy writing as much as it is the nature of the prophesy and the information gleaned from the vision, etc.

GRRM has always maintained that prophesy is tricky, prophesy will bite you in the ass, & prophesy always gets filled in the damnedest ways... So I interpret this to mean that we should EXPECT MAJOR TWISTS in how the ASOIAF Prophesies get filled... For Example: The Reader is given a dream/vision of Jon Snow atop the wall, wearing Black Ice & holding a flaming sword... Most readers would only interpret this to support the idea that Jon is AAR... I, on the other hand, feel that GRRM gave us this vision too early & too easily for that to be the true meaning... Now, I fully expect to see that scene play out in the books - Jon on the wall, flaming sword, black ice... However, if Jon is about to become separated from his body (probably never to return), and anything can happen in this world full of seemingly limitless magic... I can guarantee you, based upon the way that GRRM writes that when that scene atop the wall does play out, that will NOT be Jon Snow inside that body...

That probably sounds crazy to you, but we have to EXPECT MAJOR TWISTS!!! That is the only possible twist that ties up all the loose ends, prophesies, etc (in my opinion at least)...

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Yes, in our world, prophets & the like are usually very vague, thus increasing that likelihood that their prophesies can be interpreted as being fulfilled. On the other hand, in Westeros magic is a very real thing & Prophets are supposedly offering real prophesies (though it could be a hoax, I don't think that is the case, but I know people who do). When you are relaying a real prophesy, there is no need to muddy the waters.

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My personal conviction is that 'Born Amongst Salt & Smoke' will be fairly literal & these items will be fairly significant... I think that tears from one man crying hardly constitutes salt, and steam rising when warm blood meets cold air definitely does not constitute smoke...

If the prophet said 'Born Amongst Salt & Smoke' then their had to be enough salt & enough smoke present in the prophet's vision/dream/whatever for the prophet to identify the salt & smoke. Steam from a wound & a tear seem very insignificant to me, at least from this standpoint... Now the tons of salt GRRM went out of his way to say was stored down in the wyrmways, that has some substance & would be significant enough for the prophet to take note.

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AAR was said to be 'Born Amongst Salt & Smoke'. Jon was not being born in his last chapter, much to the contrary, he was dying...

& he must die in order to undergo the character development that is in store for him...

[Possible spoiler for those who have not red the Farseer Trilogy]

Yes I get the Valamyr and Robb stuff, but I am not sure that will happen exactly here. For me, those scenes stand out as huge beacons of light, and soon as Jon is stabbed people immediately turn to that. Which is why I have a tendency to see it as RH. Also it is very, very Hobbish. I have a difficult time believing that Martin will basically take Hobb's chapters and make them Jon. Fitz lives in his wolf for a long time before he is completely healed at the beginning of the second book.

I don't know about the Red Herring in the ADWDs Prologue... GRRM uses Prologues & Epilogues for his information dumps... The reader was being taught the mechanics to warging/skinchanging, the limits, the bounds, the abominations. The reader was being taught what a '2nd life' is & how a character might arrive in his 2nd life. Martin gave us this information because he wants us to understand it because we are going to see it happen again. I think that we saw it again in Jon's last chapter...

Bold 2 - yes he cannot see his back. But Martin is pretty consistent about mentioning blood and pain even in when the character cannot see the wound. But I will give you that there could possibly be blood.

Jon felt no pain because he dead... His consciousness was already in route to Ghost...

Bold 3 - Again this one is a matter of opinion, and I am sure there are plenty of people in your boat who feel the same. I personally think between Beric, LSH, Robert Strong, and for that matter the wights (though these are more or less a different sort) there is plenty of resurrection incidents in the story. SInce I do think there is too much, I think Martin goes a different direction. But that is more or less my opinion on resurrection. I also personally feel that, if were discussion amateur writing, that having to have 3,4,5 cases of resurrection to prepare readers for a big one kind of fits that bill. It would seem much more palatable if the concept was out of reach and somewhat of a myth in Westeros derived by the first men or CotF or something, and then somehow it occurs in the north. "Oh dam it can happen". Instead of "See people I have brought all these people back to life, so don't worry I can bring Jon back to". Again everyone has an opinion on this matter and personal taste, but for me that is terrible. If it happens, it happens. Just an opinion. However, that is not the foundation to my argument, it is the fact that the wounds are not as dreadful as one may think.

I understand your thoughts regarding resurrections & you are not alone... though the resurrections do no really bother me...

I do feel that reader is being primed for a "Grand Resurrection" & I don't think that it is amateurish to prepare the audience for supernatural occurrences that might take place... For example, long before any real magic is viewed in the LotRs, the audience learns that magic does in fact exists... The readers need to know that resurrections are possible if the author is planning on doing something really big that the audience will never expect... But it is not Jon who will be resurrected in the "Grand Resurrection", though the figure will be reborn into Jon's body...

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While on the subject of prophesies...

  1. Consider the Nissa Nissa Prophesy... she was stabbed in the heart & the sword burned from then on... We have only seen one character in the entire series who's blood was used to ignite a sword & that was Beric (when he carried the Flame of life - or whatever it was called). It should be noted that thus far, Beric's flaming sword did not advance the plot in any way whatsoever that GRRM could not have achieved from using wildfire on the blade. We know that GRRM does not include things in his books for nothing, so there must be some sort of plot point to Beric's blood causing a sword to burn... Well, now the Flame has passed to Catelyn Stark, making her the only character in the series who can possibly fulfill the role of Nissa Nissa... AAR is supposed to love NIssa Nissa with all his heart & the only person who loved Catelyn Stark with all their heart was Ned Stark... Ned Stark coming back, being reborn into Jon Snow's discarded body - that is the kind of "Grand Ressurection" that I'm suggesting will unfold, and that why I think the audience needs to be properly prepared...
  2. MMD's prophesy to Dany: "When the sun rises in the West & sets in the East... ...Then He [Khal Drogo] will return, and not before... Dany (and 99.9% of the audience) interpreted MMD's words as 'a fancy way of saying Never.' However GRRM would never overlook the opportunity to make such a 'hidden' prophesy come true. Doing stuff like that is like heroin to GRRM.

So we have 2 prominent characters who died at the end of Book 1, 2 characters who's possible return was either prophesied or can be linked to prophesy. It just so happens that the Souls/Spirits of these two charters were last seen dancing with MMD in Dany's Tent the night that Khal Drogo was brought back to life (brought back to life, but his soul was absent)... What happened in that tent? Why was Ned Stark (who died on the other side of the map) dancing with Khal Drogo? It was never explained to the reader what exactly took place here... We don't know... Martin does not want us to know... This had something to do with Azor Ahi...

I said all of this to say that I think that the Red Comet will return & Ned Start &/or Khal Drogo will be reborn into Jon's body, which is about to be frozen in the ice cells (tons of foreshadowing all the way back to early AGoTs suggest that Jon's body will be frozen for an extended period of time in the Ice Cells... There is a link in my signature if you are interested in this post... Sorry that I strayed off topic & started talking about prophesy...

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1 and 2 are red herrings, or at least misdirection , in my opinion.

Interesting opinion... You think that GRRM showing us, firsthand mind you, the mechanics of warging/skinchanging & introducing the reader to the concept of a "2nd life" (clearly because the reader will see it again), is either misdirection or a red-herring...

hmmm... I confess that I have not considered that a possibility, for some reason... Maybe the firsthand aspect of it suggested to me that it was really happening & not a re-herring or misdirection... I'm thinking that you are probably joking & I just took the bait, haha...

There are no hints, clues, or exercises in reasoning existing in the text to lead us to entertain any possibility other than Robb's death. But there is a host of mitigating clues, hints, etc. in the case of Jon.Too many to be disregarded. So Jon's whispered "Ghost," remains entirely ambiguous.

Yes, that is the way that GRRM writes, he does not like to give the readers confirmation on anything... that way it keeps them guessing & keeps his options open at the same time!!!

As for 3... Nice try at twisting a clue about to mean the opposite, but it won't work. When the "half finished" shirt of mail on the workbench in Jon's quarters is mentioned, it was just before Jon sent Sam to Oldtown. Weeks and months have passed and Jon has been in numerous dangerous situations since then. To suggest that it's still there unfinished, and that Jon wouldn't be wearing any (also ignoring his advice to others about wearing more protection and when it's advisable to wear mail and the ready availability of mail shirts) is just not reasonable.

I don't think that I twisted anything... Castle Black does not have a Blacksmith... If Jon's mail was screwed in chapter one of ADWDs, then it was still unusable in Jon's final Chapter of ADWDs... Unless you think that Lord Commander who has been busy with wildings & all kinds of craziness has taken up blacksmithing as a side job...

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I feel that a resurrection would be ill to the series. I almost feel like GRRM is going to be forced to take a more normal route with Jon Snow.



I like the scenario where it is a failed assassination attempt. Perhaps the scenario is meant to look like Robbs and perhaps there is going to be a slight deviation between the killers and the killed in this scenario that differentiate from the Red Wedding. What that is, I don't know. But I also believe we can't avoid the similarities in both their seemingly deaths.



However, it also seems that even those who believed he will die, see that he still has a large part to play. Now this warging, seems a bit silly to me and lazy.



It seems so complicated and both sides have brought some legitimate points. His death however, even if he gets resurrected sits a bit odd considering the overall situation.


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@addicted to snow



Are the European publishers considering split books or entire books? I have seen all of the aSoIaF books split into two parts. So 6,7,8,9 could just be 6 and 7 in the US? Could this be the case?




Born - Again I was trying to avoid the AA thing, because I was more or less touching on the state of Jon. However, this is why I put the argument for rebirth, which in terms of rebirth people consider that (modern world religion, etc) to be essentially born again (i.e Born again Christian). Now I don't think Martin is going that route per se, but what I am suggesting is that Jon in undergoing a rebirth; hence Aemon's words. So in a sense Jon's "rebirth" amidst salty tears and smoke and the added element of pain washing over his body is symbolic of Jon "killing the boy and letting the man be born".






I certainly think you have good points, but what prevents me from pledging death-warg-resurrection is the actual wounds inflicted. If Jon was/is described as suffering from searing pain, blood rushing from his gut, and his back wet with blood. Well I would say without a doubt Jon needs to be resurrected or some significant intervention. But that is not what the scene tells us.



I agree there is foreshadowing for a number of things you brought up, and maybe this is a mistake on Martin's behalf in writing the attack but the wounds are inconsistent with someone suffering from mortal wounds. Even Robb could have escaped with his life if intervention came and he was taken away to a decent maester. I say this lightly because of course he could have died days later, the bolt wounds were pretty bad. Tyrion had his face sliced off (lot of blood loss there) yet still lived. Now if Martin made a mistake writing the attack, obviously I will be wrong. If Martin did not make a mistake and I am still wrong, then he is inconsistent with which wounds kill and which wounds simply hurt a character. In that scene, none of the wounds are terribly fatal, at least with the information we get and how Jon reacted; which I think are two very important aspects of the scene.

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I think you were right on your first read. ;) We are told point blank that it was a graze, and Jon was able to go on to disarm Wick on Wick's second try. If that had been a serious wound, the blood would not be "welling", but spurting, or as described in other throat cuttings..

From ACoK : ... for an instant it seemed that Jon’s slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

Ghost’s muzzle was dripping red, but only the point of the bastard blade was stained, the last half inch.

From ADWD : ... the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Jon's throat wound cannot be serious at all, IMO. It only seemed that Jon's slash hadn't touched Qhorin, and only for an instant . Qhorin was in no condition to be grabbing anyone's arm and twisting it until they dropped their weapon. Jon was.

I'd read the following differently.. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

Wick slashed at Jon... a graze might leave a thin red slash...

Why might the sun appear ? Because it is rising ..but Barristan only thinks it "might" because it's been raining and the sky is overcast. It's cloudy. ...Cloudy or not, the sun (or son) will rise, even though Barristan may not be able to see it. Then he brings us back to blood welling... He thinks, "even with a deep cut" .. That tells us that blood can well from a shallow cut ,and pain can come from a shallow cut as well.. In fact, that's what's given, here .. The sense of that thought is .. Often, with a shallow cut (understood), and even with a deep cut , the blood comes before the pain.

And here's a little something from Barristan's previous chapter...

Blood welled from Khrazz’s wounds. That only seemed to make him wilder.

And I'd like to remind everyone of this (again), from ASoS...

"... Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow....

*****

.... Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him. Enough!”..."

This is perhaps the clearest of Jon's "berserker" or "wakening dragon" moments, and as in the assassination attempt, it all begins with a slash to a potentially deadly target area.

Now, I'd ask us to remember that Jon has experienced enhanced senses when Ghost is near, but he's always put up mental barriers to anything further.. "No, I'm a man , not a wolf" (paraphrase) . However, I'd think his normal barriers would be down at the moment..

The part I left out of the quote about his match with Emmett (because of length) was a flashback to something from his childhood that he felt was unjust. (I think he'd feel that the attack on himself and Wun-Wun was unjust as well.) Also,Jon could taste blood in his mouth. This, too, may have triggered his ferocious counter attack on Emmett.

In Jon's final ADWD chapter, Ghost tried to bite Mully (off page) at the beginning of this very chapter, and he has bitten Jon's attackers before (see Qhorin). So.. where is he?

There are any number of reasonable ways he could have gotten out of Jon's quarters. Just to name a few ... Satin may have returned..Devan was mentioned early in the chapter and Mel uses him to run errands. He's been sent on errands to Jon's quarters before.. In Jon's previous chapter to this one, Dryn was made his page and could also have gone to Jon's quarters...

Ghost was already in a mood to bite, and if he does bite anyone.. Jon will taste the blood in his mouth (as we know both Bran and Arya do while warging, or even in wolf dreams). Will it trigger something this time? (I think it would...)

I think there's a very good chance Jon won't be out of the action. I'm sure he will make a breakthrough as far as warging is concerned ( but not a lengthy indoctrination while comatose), and obviously, he will need some patching up.

OP- Once more into the breach... :cheers:

you make good points, but I'm still going to choose that his throat got slashed fairly bad, or at least bad enough to kill him. Remember, injured jon is capable of pulling ff miracles (mounting the horse with no saddle and maybe with an arrow in his leg, totally whomping iron emmet while dreaming/daydreaming, and lifting allser Thorne by the throat and off the ground with an injured leg). Like I said before, I won't be too disappointed if I'm wrong, but if jon is going to be a total badass in my eyes, he's going to have to die and side with the others, or at least die

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One of the European publishers has already let it slip that there will be more than 2 books remaining...

The Story is still expanding... there are so many loose ends to tie up that it will take at least 3000 or more pages...

There's just too much story left to tell & I like to monitor GRRM Writing style, techniques & whatnot; and there is just no way he gets it finished in under 9 books... I have never understood why this observation (9 books) always gets so much resistance...

<snip>

IIRC there seems to be an article where Martin says he will finish the books as he planned, two more. Perhaps another poster can help with a link.

Perhaps if you could validate your remark "I have never understood why this observation (9 books) always get so much resistance" it would help. Thanks

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