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JonisHenryTudor

Why I believe Jon is NOT in need of resurrection/warging

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IIRC there seems to be an article where Martin says he will finish the books as he planned, two more. Perhaps another poster can help with a link.

Perhaps if you could validate your remark "I have never understood why this observation (9 books) always get so much resistance" it would help. Thanks

As I mentioned above, European publishers have the tendency to publish one book in two parts. Maybe that is what they said/meant?

But like you I have heard about only 7 books with speculation from fans for 8.

you make good points, but I'm still going to choose that his throat got slashed fairly bad, or at least bad enough to kill him. Remember, injured jon is capable of pulling ff miracles (mounting the horse with no saddle and maybe with an arrow in his leg, totally whomping iron emmet while dreaming/daydreaming, and lifting allser Thorne by the throat and off the ground with an injured leg). Like I said before, I won't be too disappointed if I'm wrong, but if jon is going to be a total badass in my eyes, he's going to have to die and side with the others, or at least die

I mean Jon does seem to have a decent threshold for pain, but the only thing I would add is that some injuries are painful while others are physically debilitating. Cutting an artery will take even the most resilient men/women down. The loss of blood would lead to dizziness and if too deep a cut jugular would create breathing problems. Cutting an artery would not result in welled blood, even in the cold, it would spray and shoot with each pump of the heart. It would be a nasty mess.

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bemused, on 03 Jun 2015 - 3:03 PM, said:snapback.png

I don't think that I twisted anything... Castle Black does not have a Blacksmith... If Jon's mail was screwed in chapter one of ADWDs, then it was still unusable in Jon's final Chapter of ADWDs... Unless you think that Lord Commander who has been busy with wildings & all kinds of craziness has taken up blacksmithing as a side job...

Addicted to Snow: I understand that I forget what has happened in these books, but I seem to remember that when in ADWD Jon sparred he wore his mail and leather. True the blacksmith has died. And I agree with Bemused as to the reference to "half finished" .

Edit: try as I may my quote thing does not work the way I think is should. For clarification I agree with Bemused and disagree with Addicted to snow.

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As I mentioned above, European publishers have the tendency to publish one book in two parts. Maybe that is what they said/meant?

But like you I have heard about only 7 books with speculation from fans for 8.

So it is possible that while fans are speaking on this site about ASOIAF novels some of the disagreements are based on miscommunications. Thank you, that puts a different light on the subject.

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So it is possible that while fans are speaking on this site about ASOIAF novels some of the disagreements are based on miscommunications. Thank you, that puts a different light on the subject.

It took me several bookshops in London before I found a complete edition of book 1 of the Mistborn trilogy. Everything was Mistborn P1 & P2. Finally I found the entire book. So in a sense, the Mistborn trilogy was 6 books. :cool4:

But I would assume the translations to non-English languages would be pretty tight and true to the original source. Then again, imagine if publishers translated it into Latin......

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Interesting opinion... You think that GRRM showing us, firsthand mind you, the mechanics of warging/skinchanging & introducing the reader to the concept of a "2nd life" (clearly because the reader will see it again), is either misdirection or a red-herring...

It's not entirely misdirection if Jon does warg Ghost just for a short time in order to save his body.

As for the "2nd life" the concept may yet be used... For someone else.

I'm also one of those who don't think Martin will use a plot device already used by another writer he personally knows.

And I think Jon won't be resurrected because it's been made painfully clear, throughout the books and by Martin himself in an interview, that such resurrection comes with a price. So unless you want Jon to be a milder version of LSH or Beric D., I don't see why the resurrection would be appealing.

As for the prophecy angle... Meh, not even sure it's that important. The prophecy's vague and we're not sure who it refers to yet.

There's just too much story left to tell & I like to monitor GRRM Writing style, techniques & whatnot; and there is just no way he gets it finished in under 9 books... I have never understood why this observation (9 books) always gets so much resistance...

Do you really need someone to explain that to you?

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It took me several bookshops in London before I found a complete edition of book 1 of the Mistborn trilogy. Everything was Mistborn P1 & P2. Finally I found the entire book. So in a sense, the Mistborn trilogy was 6 books. :cool4:

But I would assume the translations to non-English languages would be pretty tight and true to the original source. Then again, imagine if publishers translated it into Latin......

speechless

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Interesting opinion... You think that GRRM showing us, firsthand mind you, the mechanics of warging/skinchanging & introducing the reader to the concept of a "2nd life" (clearly because the reader will see it again), is either misdirection or a red-herring...

hmmm... I confess that I have not considered that a possibility, for some reason... Maybe the firsthand aspect of it suggested to me that it was really happening & not a re-herring or misdirection... I'm thinking that you are probably joking & I just took the bait, haha...

.

No , I'm not joking, but I think you misunderstand me..The second life is real, alright..We first get a hint of it with Orell's eagle (back at the end of ASoS), then we get the Varamyr prologue, then Bran's experience when learning to skinchange the ravens. The "second life" could go on to have many implications (and perhaps permutations) that could affect more than one character...

I think the misdirection lies in causing us to immediately leap to assume Jon is dead and warging into Ghost, ignoring all other clues. (I didn't say the second life was misinformation)...At the same time, there could be some foreshadowing in the prologue (and later in Bran's chapter when summer takes on Varamyr's wolves) of an unsuspected enemy if Jon goes north of the Wall when old One-eye is still alive.

Yes, that is the way that GRRM writes, he does not like to give the readers confirmation on anything... that way it keeps them guessing & keeps his options open at the same time!!!

To my mind, it's the clues that have been well hidden in apparently unconnected anecdotes , obscure parallels, and even in meticulously chosen language that bear paying attention to, more than to those that are obvious at first glance... Many readers miss the hidden clues entirely, so those clues are relatively useless as red herrings or false signposts. ...It's the clues that easily stand out that are useful tools for misdirection.

I don't think that I twisted anything... Castle Black does not have a Blacksmith... If Jon's mail was screwed in chapter one of ADWDs, then it was still unusable in Jon's final Chapter of ADWDs... Unless you think that Lord Commander who has been busy with wildings & all kinds of craziness has taken up blacksmithing as a side job...

Now I wonder if you're joking..I've heard some of this before of course, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. When Stannis is planning to use the wildlings in his van, he wants the NW to outfit them...

He means to plunder our armory, Jon realized. Food and clothing, land and castles, now

weapons. He draws me in deeper every day. Words might not be swords, but swords were swords. “I could find three hundred spears,” he said, reluctantly. “Helms as well, if you’ll take them old and dinted and red with rust.”

“Armor?” asked the Magnar. “Plate? Mail?”

“When Donal Noye died we lost our armorer.” The rest Jon left unspoken. Give the wildlings

mail and they’ll be twice as great a danger to the realm.

So it's not that the NW has no mail on hand it's that Jon doesn't want Stannis to plunder what he has. And he has no reason to trust Sigorn at this point (who would have been commanding Stannis' wildlings) . When he thinks "Give the wildlings mail", etc. , that definitely implies that he has some but is reluctant to give it. It's true they lost their smith and couldn't replace dozens, or perhaps hundreds of pieces of mail.. but he's also trying to conserve supplies for use at the Wall.

When "Rattleshirt" challenges him...

“Emmett, find some armor for him. I want him in steel, not old bones.” Once clad in mail and

plate, the Lord of Bones seemed to stand a little straighter.

Are we really to believe that there's mail to be had for men in the practice yard, but none for the Lord Commander ?

When Jon takes Val to meet Selyse, Val asks... Should I have dressed in mail instead of wool and fur? ... Why does she ask?..is she comparing herself to Jon, who is wearing mail?.. Don't forget he'd just gone out (to an unknown reception) to negotiate with Tormund.

When he goes out to let Tormund's people in..

Jon had never liked surrounding himself with guards, but today it seemed prudent to keep a few good men beside him. They made a grim display in their ringmail, ... Again, mail for the tail, but none for the head ?

And, no time..?? .. No time for self preservation? ...Well, he has time to work out in the practice yard on a regular basis (without mail?) He's spent hours poring over letters and the books Aemon left for him..We've seen him go to bathe..should we think that's the only bath he's taken at the wall ? We can bet that he follows Ned's example and takes care of cleaning Longclaw himself. Why would he not have time (make time) to make adjustments to his mail ? He knows it's important.... He's good with his hands..He fashioned the hilts for the obsidian blades found in the cache... and every ranger or soldier would be expected to take care of their equipment as best they could (besides being in their own interest).

Jon knows he has potential enemies (even in the watch).. Honestly, how stupid or careless do you think he is ? It's asking us to suspend disbelief to an outrageous degree to assume he's gone without wearing mail all this time.

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I have to agree with bemused. I really don't think Jon is dumb enough to be waltzing around without any kind of mail. Even if his personal mail is still out of commission, there is still some there for him to use.


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I have always assumed the only 2 explanations for Jon's reaction to the "graze" was either brought about by poison on said dagger


or by the Others arrive to attack the wall resulting in his weapon sticking in it's scabbard.. but would dragon steel suffer from this?


Something tells me no..


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@addicted to snow

Are the European publishers considering split books or entire books? I have seen all of the aSoIaF books split into two parts. So 6,7,8,9 could just be 6 and 7 in the US? Could this be the case?

Born - Again I was trying to avoid the AA thing, because I was more or less touching on the state of Jon. However, this is why I put the argument for rebirth, which in terms of rebirth people consider that (modern world religion, etc) to be essentially born again (i.e Born again Christian). Now I don't think Martin is going that route per se, but what I am suggesting is that Jon in undergoing a rebirth; hence Aemon's words. So in a sense Jon's "rebirth" amidst salty tears and smoke and the added element of pain washing over his body is symbolic of Jon "killing the boy and letting the man be born".

I certainly think you have good points, but what prevents me from pledging death-warg-resurrection is the actual wounds inflicted. If Jon was/is described as suffering from searing pain, blood rushing from his gut, and his back wet with blood. Well I would say without a doubt Jon needs to be resurrected or some significant intervention. But that is not what the scene tells us.

I agree there is foreshadowing for a number of things you brought up, and maybe this is a mistake on Martin's behalf in writing the attack but the wounds are inconsistent with someone suffering from mortal wounds. Even Robb could have escaped with his life if intervention came and he was taken away to a decent maester. I say this lightly because of course he could have died days later, the bolt wounds were pretty bad. Tyrion had his face sliced off (lot of blood loss there) yet still lived. Now if Martin made a mistake writing the attack, obviously I will be wrong. If Martin did not make a mistake and I am still wrong, then he is inconsistent with which wounds kill and which wounds simply hurt a character. In that scene, none of the wounds are terribly fatal, at least with the information we get and how Jon reacted; which I think are two very important aspects of the scene.

I think GRRm intentionally wrote the scene with ambiguity, so that in the event that he has a great idea of some sort & wants to use it, he wants to leave as many options as possible open going forward...The Ambiguity also serves to cause different readers to reach different conclusions & discuss it...

I think Jon is dead, but GRRM had definitely left himself a loop-hole should he decide to keep Jon alive...

& you think that Jon is alive, but GRRm left enough ambiguity that he could make him dead if he should decide to go that route...

---

I'm sure GRRM knows exactly which way he going at this point, but who knows, he might have been undecided at the time he wrote ADWDs...

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No , I'm not joking, but I think you misunderstand me..The second life is real, alright..We first get a hint of it with Orell's eagle (back at the end of ASoS), then we get the Varamyr prologue, then Bran's experience when learning to skinchange the ravens. The "second life" could go on to have many implications (and perhaps permutations) that could affect more than one character...

I think the misdirection lies in causing us to immediately leap to assume Jon is dead and warging into Ghost, ignoring all other clues. (I didn't say the second life was misinformation)...At the same time, there could be some foreshadowing in the prologue (and later in Bran's chapter when summer takes on Varamyr's wolves) of an unsuspected enemy if Jon goes north of the Wall when old One-eye is still alive.

To my mind, it's the clues that have been well hidden in apparently unconnected anecdotes , obscure parallels, and even in meticulously chosen language that bear paying attention to, more than to those that are obvious at first glance... Many readers miss the hidden clues entirely, so those clues are relatively useless as red herrings or false signposts. ...It's the clues that easily stand out that are useful tools for misdirection.

Now I wonder if you're joking..I've heard some of this before of course, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. When Stannis is planning to use the wildlings in his van, he wants the NW to outfit them...

He means to plunder our armory, Jon realized. Food and clothing, land and castles, now

weapons. He draws me in deeper every day. Words might not be swords, but swords were swords. “I could find three hundred spears,” he said, reluctantly. “Helms as well, if you’ll take them old and dinted and red with rust.”

“Armor?” asked the Magnar. “Plate? Mail?”

“When Donal Noye died we lost our armorer.” The rest Jon left unspoken. Give the wildlings

mail and they’ll be twice as great a danger to the realm.

So it's not that the NW has no mail on hand it's that Jon doesn't want Stannis to plunder what he has. And he has no reason to trust Sigorn at this point (who would have been commanding Stannis' wildlings) . When he thinks "Give the wildlings mail", etc. , that definitely implies that he has some but is reluctant to give it. It's true they lost their smith and couldn't replace dozens, or perhaps hundreds of pieces of mail.. but he's also trying to conserve supplies for use at the Wall.

When "Rattleshirt" challenges him...

“Emmett, find some armor for him. I want him in steel, not old bones.” Once clad in mail and

plate, the Lord of Bones seemed to stand a little straighter.

Are we really to believe that there's mail to be had for men in the practice yard, but none for the Lord Commander ?

When Jon takes Val to meet Selyse, Val asks... Should I have dressed in mail instead of wool and fur? ... Why does she ask?..is she comparing herself to Jon, who is wearing mail?.. Don't forget he'd just gone out (to an unknown reception) to negotiate with Tormund.

When he goes out to let Tormund's people in..

Jon had never liked surrounding himself with guards, but today it seemed prudent to keep a few good men beside him. They made a grim display in their ringmail, ... Again, mail for the tail, but none for the head ?

And, no time..?? .. No time for self preservation? ...Well, he has time to work out in the practice yard on a regular basis (without mail?) He's spent hours poring over letters and the books Aemon left for him..We've seen him go to bathe..should we think that's the only bath he's taken at the wall ? We can bet that he follows Ned's example and takes care of cleaning Longclaw himself. Why would he not have time (make time) to make adjustments to his mail ? He knows it's important.... He's good with his hands..He fashioned the hilts for the obsidian blades found in the cache... and every ranger or soldier would be expected to take care of their equipment as best they could (besides being in their own interest).

Jon knows he has potential enemies (even in the watch).. Honestly, how stupid or careless do you think he is ? It's asking us to suspend disbelief to an outrageous degree to assume he's gone without wearing mail all this time.

I wonder what the purpose was for showing us Jon's mail not being worn & in a state of ill repair? showing us that mail does add anything from a world building standpoint, so I wonder what GRRM was getting at?

It will only be about another year now & we will know for certain... It will not take long at all to verify that something is very different in the first Jon POV chapter...

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I have to agree with bemused. I really don't think Jon is dumb enough to be waltzing around without any kind of mail. Even if his personal mail is still out of commission, there is still some there for him to use.

It wouldn't be the dumbest thing that Jon has ever done... The Dumbest thing that he ever did was ask unbelievably poor questions & then jump to conclusions when interrogating Guilly regarding Craster's Sacrifices...

Jon goes on to make some good decisions as well, later on. He is not dumb by any means, but at the same time, he is far from being the sharpest tool in the shed...

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I've always thought that when they go to burn Jon's seemingly dead body that he would have a similar resurrection to Dany entering the fire with the dragon eggs.

That idea was pretty popular for awhile (might still be?), but don't you feel that is repetitive? I was along the same line at first, or sort of. At first I figured that some sort of ice magic would be responsible for Jon's survival, but after looking at the scene closely I have since abandoned that idea, though not entirely.

I think GRRm intentionally wrote the scene with ambiguity, so that in the event that he has a great idea of some sort & wants to use it, he wants to leave as many options as possible open going forward...The Ambiguity also serves to cause different readers to reach different conclusions & discuss it...

I think Jon is dead, but GRRM had definitely left himself a loop-hole should he decide to keep Jon alive...

& you think that Jon is alive, but GRRm left enough ambiguity that he could make him dead if he should decide to go that route...

---

I'm sure GRRM knows exactly which way he going at this point, but who knows, he might have been undecided at the time he wrote ADWDs...

Well I certainly agree that the scene is ambiguous for reason, though I am not sure it was meant to be that way in case he changed his mind. That would be an interesting writing tactic I suppose.

As far as the question of what Jon was wearing goes, this is what I think. Once again I have to agree with Bemused, I doubt Jon walked around CB unarmed/unarmored.

Here is why:

At the time wildlings, NW men, and Stannis' men resided at CB. If this were CoK, then I might say it is possible. But I think we have to consider the context here. Jon just allowed the wildlings to pass through the gates, and while he is willing to work with them I have to wonder how much he fully trusts them. Tormund and Mance perhaps, but remember the Wildlings don't follow the same code of conduct and chivalric code. Just as we see show Olly acting like a little prat, it takes one or two wildlings with similar sentiments. Mance is their glue, but they are the free folk for a reason. My guess is that alone would have Jon error on the side of caution and always have some sort of protection.

Stannis. Jon knows very little about these men, and it seems to me that he respects and trusts Stannis to a point but these are "foreigners" in his post. Jon has rejected Stannis' offer of legitimization and effectively denied Stannis aid in the process, or sort of. What is to say Stannis doesn't have Jon killed for this? I don't believe that, but from Jon's pov, the NW is heavily outnumbered with both groups at the wall.

My guess is that Jon, even if he trusted these men, probably wore some sort of protection just in case. I could be wrong, but Jon would have to be daft to not consider the possibility that those around him had limitations to their friendship. He may not have adorned mail, but perhaps some hardened leather suit, or something similar. Bemused cited a few examples where Jon shows an increased sense of security, so I think it is likely that he had some form of protection.

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you make good points, but I'm still going to choose that his throat got slashed fairly bad, or at least bad enough to kill him. Remember, injured jon is capable of pulling ff miracles (mounting the horse with no saddle and maybe with an arrow in his leg, totally whomping iron emmet while dreaming/daydreaming, and lifting allser Thorne by the throat and off the ground with an injured leg). Like I said before, I won't be too disappointed if I'm wrong, but if jon is going to be a total badass in my eyes, he's going to have to die and side with the others, or at least die

I mean Jon does seem to have a decent threshold for pain, but the only thing I would add is that some injuries are painful while others are physically debilitating. Cutting an artery will take even the most resilient men/women down. The loss of blood would lead to dizziness and if too deep a cut jugular would create breathing problems. Cutting an artery would not result in welled blood, even in the cold, it would spray and shoot with each pump of the heart. It would be a nasty mess.

Robert Rivers.. Jon showed explosive anger and strength in his first and second attack on Thorne, and perhaps to a lesser degree when he pulled the Weeper's spear out of the ground. (In all of those he was angry over unjust accusations or behaviour) ....But the tendency was displayed to a greater degree in the bout with Emmett where you had the additional elements of being in fact, defeated when he was suddenly stunned( triggering an old injustice) and tasting blood.

I can only echo JonisHenryTudor about the welling vs. pumping of blood .

But, in order for you to see Jon as "badass" he will have to become something other than Jon... This is something I hope not to see. GRRM has shown us a number of examples of resurrection, each one a little different from the others, but they all have one thing in common. The process is dehumanizing. The subjects are no longer the people they were. Their humanity has been corrupted in some way.

I wonder what the purpose was for showing us Jon's mail not being worn & in a state of ill repair? showing us that mail does add anything from a world building standpoint, so I wonder what GRRM was getting at?

It will only be about another year now & we will know for certain... It will not take long at all to verify that something is very different in the first Jon POV chapter...

GRRM didn't say it was in "ill repair", or "screwed" as you or someone said earlier.. he merely said it was half finished. He doesn't say in what way it was half finished. ...I've come to think the most reasonable explanation is that it was in the process of being customized in some way. Shortened..doubled.. stitched down to something that can be worn close to the body...who knows?

But since we see there are generic mail shirts available, there's no reason to think Jon wore no mail, even while that one was being finished.

ETA: As well as the several good reasons for wearing mail given by JonisHenryTudor, above.. at the time the shirt was being worked on , both Slynt and Thorne were at CB , and they had very recently tried to have Jon killed, twice.

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Okay, but why would GRRM trouble his readership with this detail? It has a purpose... but what... all I can think of is that it explains why he was not wearing mail... I can think of no other reason that GRRm would have offered this information... Granted, my imagination is not on Par with GRRM's...


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Okay, but why would GRRM trouble his readership with this detail? It has a purpose... but what... all I can think of is that it explains why he was not wearing mail... I can think of no other reason that GRRm would have offered this information... Granted, my imagination is not on Par with GRRM's...

I think it could be just as you said, a loophole and a way to add more ambiguity.

I think GRRm intentionally wrote the scene with ambiguity, so that in the event that he has a great idea of some sort & wants to use it, he wants to leave as many options as possible open going forward...The Ambiguity also serves to cause different readers to reach different conclusions & discuss it...

I think Jon is dead, but GRRM had definitely left himself a loop-hole should he decide to keep Jon alive...

It wouldn't be the dumbest thing that Jon has ever done... The Dumbest thing that he ever did was ask unbelievably poor questions & then jump to conclusions when interrogating Guilly regarding Craster's Sacrifices...

Jon goes on to make some good decisions as well, later on. He is not dumb by any means, but at the same time, he is far from being the sharpest tool in the shed...

I still think that would go well beyond not "being the sharpest tool" for Jon... that's some straight up 'Please Stab Me Now' neon signage idiocy. Then again, I'm not privy to GRRM's imagination either, so... :dunno: haha

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Okay, but why would GRRM trouble his readership with this detail? It has a purpose... but what... all I can think of is that it explains why he was not wearing mail... I can think of no other reason that GRRm would have offered this information... Granted, my imagination is not on Par with GRRM's...

Perhaps a thinking device? A detail here or there to get us to think and question the text. Isn't that what we are doing here in this thread? I mean in the scope of the entire story, we are debating a scene that lasted for what 60 words? 60 of the most important words in the novel for some people (Jon fans and/or sympathizers), and certainly the most important for Jon to this point (excluding RL=J).

^Martin causing our heads to explode why.

It could also be part of his world building scheme as well? Look at all the food descriptions. Also, some people have brought up the issue of tax policy in LotR or lack thereof. It could be Martin saying, "this isn't an RPG or typical fantasy, these men actually have to sharpen/clean/prep their gear."

^That is a practical why.

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Okay, but why would GRRM trouble his readership with this detail? It has a purpose... but what... all I can think of is that it explains why he was not wearing mail... I can think of no other reason that GRRm would have offered this information... Granted, my imagination is not on Par with GRRM's...

I think the shirt is there (along with at least some of those other "mail" references) so that when Jon's wounds are found to be not all that serious , he (GRRM) will have laid the groundwork for the revelation of said shirt.(A nod to Frodo's mithril shirt?) It won't come out of nowhere , deus ex machina ( a thing he works very hard to avoid).. but at the same time, he wants to create suspense, he wants us to worry about what's happening to Jon. So the references are given obliquely.

It appears in AFfC..The shirt is just lying there on the workbench, and seems to be just part of the set in Jon's quarters, there for colour. It's noticed by Sam on his way to see Jon ..and then, as Sam enters Jon's private area, we have the episode with Mormont's raven pecking through Sam's glove and drawing blood. Sam is upset, but Jon tells him.. “We all shed our blood for the Watch. Wear thicker gloves.” ..Then they go on to discuss the paper shield ( an attempt at protection which Jon fears won't be adequate, but it's all he has... he can do nothing more. ). He can do something about his own personal protection though, and I think he would follow his own advice.(Sam works with the ravens and needs to wear thicker gloves, but Jon has to worry about more than a pecked hand.)

ETA: I think GRRM does very little in the way of leaving his options open..at least where it concerns major characters.. some of the clues have been planted very early on, and if he did change his mind, he'd want those clues to still be consistent with what occurs. And he'd want the character to remain true to the way he/she had been originally portrayed, while allowing for growth.

Actually, Jon is one of the sharper knives in the drawer, but he was still a boy when the story opened. In AGoT, Benjen says to him "You don't miss much, do you Jon?" .. he's actually been doing pretty well, considering he's been coming up against situations he could have had no way of predicting.

BTW, that Sam chapter in AFfC holds a lot of potential foreshadowing for what happens for Jon in ADWD , especially in regard to the events of his last chapter, I think.

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You use too many abbreviations

I think the whole forum uses too many abbreviations. A newcomer is just supposed to immediately understand the meaning of AH, JS, FM, etc. I think you should spell the whole word/group of words out the first time you write it. Unless it's something really obvious, like GRRM.

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