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JonisHenryTudor

Why I believe Jon is NOT in need of resurrection/warging

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Robert Rivers.. Jon showed explosive anger and strength in his first and second attack on Thorne, and perhaps to a lesser degree when he pulled the Weeper's spear out of the ground. (In all of those he was angry over unjust accusations or behaviour) ....But the tendency was displayed to a greater degree in the bout with Emmett where you had the additional elements of being in fact, defeated when he was suddenly stunned( triggering an old injustice) and tasting blood.

I can only echo JonisHenryTudor about the welling vs. pumping of blood .

But, in order for you to see Jon as "badass" he will have to become something other than Jon... This is something I hope not to see. GRRM has shown us a number of examples of resurrection, each one a little different from the others, but they all have one thing in common. The process is dehumanizing. The subjects are no longer the people they were. Their humanity has been corrupted in some way.

GRRM didn't say it was in "ill repair", or "screwed" as you or someone said earlier.. he merely said it was half finished. He doesn't say in what way it was half finished. ...I've come to think the most reasonable explanation is that it was in the process of being customized in some way. Shortened..doubled.. stitched down to something that can be worn close to the body...who knows?

But since we see there are generic mail shirts available, there's no reason to think Jon wore no mail, even while that one was being finished.

ETA: As well as the several good reasons for wearing mail given by JonisHenryTudor, above.. at the time the shirt was being worked on , both Slynt and Thorne were at CB , and they had very recently tried to have Jon killed, twice.

Excellent points about the armor.

This line from Tyrion a few chapters before "For the Watch" has always stuck with me:

"Pretending to be dead is one way to survive a battle. Good armor is another."

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Excellent points about the armor.

This line from Tyrion a few chapters before "For the Watch" has always stuck with me:

"Pretending to be dead is one way to survive a battle. Good armor is another."

:bowdown:

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Good morning ...


Addicted to Snow... Now that I have my coffee , I want to dial back on the following, a little.


I said: "I think GRRM does very little in the way of leaving his options open...at least where it concerns major characters.. some of the clues have been planted very early on, and if he did change his mind, he'd want those clues to still be consistent with what occurs. And he'd want the character to remain true to the way he/she had been originally portrayed, while allowing for growth."


That's not quite right, I should have started that with - "In some cases".


In keeping with GRRM's gardener analogy, you're right..of course he often has to leave options open along the way, so he can decide if he wants a new kind of beetle or songbird to enter the garden, or change his mind on when to water, etc..


What I mean to express is, I think this assasination scene is one of the seeds he planted long ago, and he's always known what flower or fruit it would produce. Or, if you like , Jon is the seed , GRRM knows what that seed will produce , and this is where he always knew the plant would need to be pinched back hard, in order to strengthen it.


The hints in that Sam chapter at the beginning of AFfC are too specific (I think) to be simply leaving options open... while WeaselPie's sweet catch, above (*tips hat*) is sort of general fertiliser ...it's generally true, and appropriate for Tyrion and Penny, in the moment .. but also for Barristan and Jon (both "Kingbreaker" and Jon's final chapter are coming right up) ... and potentially could resonate for many others, later.


I want to come back to the Iron Emmett scene, but I have some things to do first..I'll be back...

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What I was coming back to say has grown so long.. I think it's a thread of it's own. OP- this was a valiant effret at containing it all in one place, but I fear that in explaining the "Berserker" possibility, it might be too much of a side track.



I'll link to this thread as well, though, if that's OK.


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What I was coming back to say has grown so long.. I think it's a thread of it's own. OP- this was a valiant effret at containing it all in one place, but I fear that in explaining the "Berserker" possibility, it might be too much of a side track.

I'll link to this thread as well, though, if that's OK.

Hahaha containment mission failed. That is fine. :cheers:

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I've always felt Six-skins story was more related to Bran, and that Jon simply survives the attack.


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Excellent points about the armor.

This line from Tyrion a few chapters before "For the Watch" has always stuck with me:

"Pretending to be dead is one way to survive a battle. Good armor is another."

That's it, Jon was just pretending to be stabbed!!! Why didn't I see it earlier???

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I guess what people see as a cliffhanger doesn't seem like a cliffhanger to me.



"He never felt the fourth knife, only the cold ..." tells me he was either in Ghost or dead when that chapter ended. The ellipse here is obvious to me. He either warged into Ghost and made it out of there ( in mind ) or he died right there on the ground. The body by this time is an afterthought. He could not pull his sword from its scarab. He could not speak nor stand. He could only grunt. He finally could not feel. He was gone.



Calling to ghost was likely his way of knowing he was done for and needed to warg out quickly. Whether he made it out of his now-deceased human body or not is really the cliffhanger here.



FYI: The spear Victarion got jabbed by was probably nothing. Victarion is nothing like Jon Snow. Victarion is a big, powerful man clad in full plate armor. What did Jon wear? At most mail, right?


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I guess what people see as a cliffhanger doesn't seem like a cliffhanger to me.

"He never felt the fourth knife, only the cold ..." tells me he was either in Ghost or dead when that chapter ended. The ellipse here is obvious to me. He either warged into Ghost and made it out of there ( in mind ) or he died right there on the ground. The body by this time is an afterthought. He could not pull his sword from its scarab. He could not speak nor stand. He could only grunt. He finally could not feel. He was gone.

Calling to ghost was likely his way of knowing he was done for and needed to warg out quickly. Whether he made it out of his now-deceased human body or not is really the cliffhanger here.

FYI: The spear Victarion got jabbed by was probably nothing. Victarion is nothing like Jon Snow. Victarion is a big, powerful man clad in full plate armor. What did Jon wear? At most mail, right?

And Jon was stabbed with a dagger not a spear. Mail could stop a dagger, especially one that isn't cared for (I would assume his attackers would have the smarts to sharpen the thing, so we will just assume they did), and if it did not stop it, it would slow the penetration.

Ghost - Possible, but again calling out to Ghost doesn't necessarily warg. Bran doesn't call out to Summer (not that I am aware of). Jon is just beginning to learn of his abilities, he isn't coached or aware like Bran is. If Jon wanted Ghost, he most likely would think not say his name. I think that is the key.

If his body was an afterthought, that is a terrible job by Martin to show that. When Bran is in Summer, the narrative shows this. Also considering he sort of stole the idea (ok borrowed) from a close friend/colleague, I am sure Martin wouldn't muck this up. There is no sense that Jon has left his body for Ghost's. Also consider this. If Ghost is not there, he is still locked up in Jon's Chambers (he was there I believe), which is probably warm since there probably is a fire in the heart. If Jon jumped to Ghost, he would feel the warmth, not the cold.

Again and I have said this before, Jon could have warged but the wounds are not consistent with fatal wounds. He could have accidentally warged Ghost, but the scene does not suggest he has at that particular moment.

I don't have the time right now, but when Bran wargs Summer the language changes from Summer's pov.

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He's not dead. I agree. It would be ridiculous for him to be dead and be reaniminated, people are crazy.



The OP left out, which to me is relevant, Jon's earlier dream of being in the crypts of Winterfell where he's limping, to me this says that he's not dead and when he recovers he will have a permanent injury that disables him to some degree.


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He's not dead. I agree. It would be ridiculous for him to be dead and be reaniminated, people are crazy.

The OP left out, which to me is relevant, Jon's earlier dream of being in the crypts of Winterfell where he's limping, to me this says that he's not dead and when he recovers he will have a permanent injury that disables him to some degree.

I left out quite a bit I am sure. I was focusing primarily on the scene itself and the wounds. But yes that is very relevant as well. Thanks for that.

I would imagine that a reanimated Jon would be "free" of debilitating injuries, such as a limp.

Oh hell you just tied it into something. Jon is not stabbed in the leg, but I did suggest that he may have been stabbed in the hip as a result of his struggle to remove the blade. If that is the case, it would explain the gimpy Jon. Of course I am not going to lay my hat on this one, but I used a hip wound as a possible explanation for the "stuck" blade.

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And Jon was stabbed with a dagger not a spear. Mail could stop a dagger, especially one that isn't cared for (I would assume his attackers would have the smarts to sharpen the thing, so we will just assume they did), and if it did not stop it, it would slow the penetration.

Ghost - Possible, but again calling out to Ghost doesn't necessarily warg. Bran doesn't call out to Summer (not that I am aware of). Jon is just beginning to learn of his abilities, he isn't coached or aware like Bran is. If Jon wanted Ghost, he most likely would think not say his name. I think that is the key.

If his body was an afterthought, that is a terrible job by Martin to show that. When Bran is in Summer, the narrative shows this. Also considering he sort of stole the idea (ok borrowed) from a close friend/colleague, I am sure Martin wouldn't muck this up. There is no sense that Jon has left his body for Ghost's. Also consider this. If Ghost is not there, he is still locked up in Jon's Chambers (he was there I believe), which is probably warm since there probably is a fire in the heart. If Jon jumped to Ghost, he would feel the warmth, not the cold.

Again and I have said this before, Jon could have warged but the wounds are not consistent with fatal wounds. He could have accidentally warged Ghost, but the scene does not suggest he has at that particular moment.

I don't have the time right now, but when Bran wargs Summer the language changes from Summer's pov.

As far as I know, mail is best served against a slashing weapon, such as a sabre, an axe or a sword ( in the right motion ). Mail is pretty useless against piercing weapons because the links aren't strong enough to withstand a direct, pinpoint strike. Especially one that comes behind a heavy hand and is very sharp.

If you wanted pierce resistance you went with a very thick plate. Plate is ideal for stopping small to medium force on pierce attacks. Which is why Victarion survived that spear attack. For high velocity pierce you want something major like kelvar plate.

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It is a very interesting theory. They sacrificed living kids to become Others. The dead ones became wights. Jon will be Night's King and thus needs to be an Other.


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As far as I know, mail is best served against a slashing weapon, such as a sabre, an axe or a sword ( in the right motion ). Mail is pretty useless against piercing weapons because the links aren't strong enough to withstand a direct, pinpoint strike. Especially one that comes behind a heavy hand and is very sharp.

If you wanted pierce resistance you went with a very thick plate. Plate is ideal for stopping small to medium force on pierce attacks. Which is why Victarion survived that spear attack. For high velocity pierce you want something major like kelvar plate.

There is a "field" called historical archaeology, well it really is not a field, but essentially a group of historians/archaeologist test certain things. For example whether a horse will charge a line or not.

Anyway, one particular group tested mail. It withstood every attack except for the battle ax and crossbow bolts. Now by withstood I mean the mail was not broken. Swords, daggers (5-8inch bladed), etc did little or no damage to the mail. Stars, maces, etc did nothing, but clearly busted the bones underneath. Now this all depends on the skill of the craftsman, and I am not about to guess how well crafted Jon's armor is.

A dagger is a very short blade that is narrow, and while a piercing shot certainly would cause some damage, it would not necessarily bust through the mail. Also consider that he is probably wearing boiled leather on the outside plus a heavy cloak. Even then, it still is not clear that Jon was actually tagged in the back, he just assumes that he was because he is being attacked.

Martin typically uses descriptive words for pain, blood, etc when a nasty wound is made. How is it that Cat felt her back on fire, but Jon feels nothing? Not wetness, no pain, nothing. He grunts as if the wind was knocked out of him, and that is really all we have. When Jon was hit in the gut, the blade stayed in. But there is no mention of the blade being stuck in Jon's back, and nor of blood pouring down his back after he was hit.

There is one other thing I just thought of. Jon is not overweight, he is pretty average. Which means he does not have a flabby back, and to be honest this probably wouldn't make that much of a difference. A blade between the shoulder blades would have hit bone, and at worst would have nailed his spine. There are gaps, but the chances that the attacker stuck a dagger in his back and missed all of that is so slim that it is nearly impossible. Again, there is no descriptive elements to show that a blade has lodged into his shoulder blade or his spine.

I certainly agree that a dagger could bust the mail (again craftsmanship is not always equal), but I am not certain that he was even struck with a 3rd dagger. Possible? Sure this is fantasy, but Martin is usually pretty careful with his words. Victarion was essentially unharmed, and Cat felt a burning pain. Jon felt nothing.

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As I mentioned above, European publishers have the tendency to publish one book in two parts. Maybe that is what they said/meant?

But like you I have heard about only 7 books with speculation from fans for 8.

I mean Jon does seem to have a decent threshold for pain, but the only thing I would add is that some injuries are painful while others are physically debilitating. Cutting an artery will take even the most resilient men/women down. The loss of blood would lead to dizziness and if too deep a cut jugular would create breathing problems. Cutting an artery would not result in welled blood, even in the cold, it would spray and shoot with each pump of the heart. It would be a nasty mess.

what if the cold was Other cold. Sam seemed to think that their cold made his bladder feel frozen. (I know I'm grasping at straws)

What about jon snows ice armor in his dream. I can't find my book, but was it made from frozen blood?

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what if the cold was Other cold. Sam seemed to think that their cold made his bladder feel frozen. (I know I'm grasping at straws)

What about jon snows ice armor in his dream. I can't find my book, but was it made from frozen blood?

If by Other cold, you mean they have arrived then I do find that to be possible. That was one of the things I thought in the final line aside from his attacker being distracted while he lay in the snow. I mean the chapter ends on a to be continued note, and one of the ideas that I have is that the attackers were distracted because the Others have arrived.

With two books left, it would not surprise me to have them finally arrive at this moment.

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Would it be possible if Jon died and was rezed by the Others with his Stark/Targ blood giving Jon free will, would it be possible for Jon to challenge the Nights King, kill him and take command of the Others, stopping them from attacking Westeros?

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There is a "field" called historical archaeology, well it really is not a field, but essentially a group of historians/archaeologist test certain things. For example whether a horse will charge a line or not.

Anyway, one particular group tested mail. It withstood every attack except for the battle ax and crossbow bolts. Now by withstood I mean the mail was not broken. Swords, daggers (5-8inch bladed), etc did little or no damage to the mail. Stars, maces, etc did nothing, but clearly busted the bones underneath. Now this all depends on the skill of the craftsman, and I am not about to guess how well crafted Jon's armor is.

A dagger is a very short blade that is narrow, and while a piercing shot certainly would cause some damage, it would not necessarily bust through the mail. Also consider that he is probably wearing boiled leather on the outside plus a heavy cloak. Even then, it still is not clear that Jon was actually tagged in the back, he just assumes that he was because he is being attacked.

Martin typically uses descriptive words for pain, blood, etc when a nasty wound is made. How is it that Cat felt her back on fire, but Jon feels nothing? Not wetness, no pain, nothing. He grunts as if the wind was knocked out of him, and that is really all we have. When Jon was hit in the gut, the blade stayed in. But there is no mention of the blade being stuck in Jon's back, and nor of blood pouring down his back after he was hit.

There is one other thing I just thought of. Jon is not overweight, he is pretty average. Which means he does not have a flabby back, and to be honest this probably wouldn't make that much of a difference. A blade between the shoulder blades would have hit bone, and at worst would have nailed his spine. There are gaps, but the chances that the attacker stuck a dagger in his back and missed all of that is so slim that it is nearly impossible. Again, there is no descriptive elements to show that a blade has lodged into his shoulder blade or his spine.

I certainly agree that a dagger could bust the mail (again craftsmanship is not always equal), but I am not certain that he was even struck with a 3rd dagger. Possible? Sure this is fantasy, but Martin is usually pretty careful with his words. Victarion was essentially unharmed, and Cat felt a burning pain. Jon felt nothing.

It might be possible but the text doesn't clue us in to that. The blade was buried up to the hilt in his stomach. A decent dagger blade is going to be at least 4 inches in length. There is no way he had leather + mail 4 inches off his stomach. Maybe 1 inch at most. Even that would be pretty uncomfortable.

The clues are more in how he responds to each of these strikes. There is his mind and then his body. They don't always agree. For example:

Wick, put that knife... away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hands to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why?"

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

He hasn't yet realized it but he was either hit a lot harder and deeper than he thought by Wick the first time or someone else also stabbed him in his sword arm during the distraction. This would explain why his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy.

The reason he wouldn't feel the last dagger is that the third between his shoulders may have severed his spinal cord. If it stuck in the right place anyways.

Also he would know a dagger I think. Better than a push or a shove.

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It might be possible but the text doesn't clue us in to that. The blade was buried up to the hilt in his stomach. A decent dagger blade is going to be at least 4 inches in length. There is no way he had leather + mail 4 inches off his stomach. Maybe 1 inch at most. Even that would be pretty uncomfortable.

The clues are more in how he responds to each of these strikes. There is his mind and then his body. They don't always agree. For example:

He hasn't yet realized it but he was either hit a lot harder and deeper than he thought by Wick the first time or someone else also stabbed him in his sword arm during the distraction. This would explain why his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy.

The reason he wouldn't feel the last dagger is that the third between his shoulders may have severed his spinal cord. If it stuck in the right place anyways.

Also he would know a dagger I think. Better than a push or a shove.

The text doesn't say the blade was buried "up to the hilt". We don't know the length of the blade ( but I would assume at least 5 in.) We don't know how many layers of clothing and protection Jon was wearing. It's impossible that Wick hit harder and deeper. Blood would be everywhere..

I can't share your idea of comfort.. In that climate, wearing only one inch of clothing / protection ..without access to modern fabrics.. would be damned uncomfortable and probably life threatening.

Stabbed in the arm? You're inventing your own attackers, but I'm sticking with George's..... Stiff and clumsy ? There's a good chance Jon's sword has been interfered with ( Ghost had a reason for wanting to bite Mully)..and there's a good chance that Jon wasn't wearing gloves, or how would he have known blood was welling between his fingers? The wound was not in a place he could see ,so he must have felt it. It's cold..cold makes anyone's fingers seem stiff and clumsy.

He would know a dagger from a push or a shove, if he could see it. Jon has some unusual attributes, but not eyes in the back of his head (or the side of his neck).

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