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JonisHenryTudor

Why I believe Jon is NOT in need of resurrection/warging

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If he didn't die with the four stabs, the text points that he at least got unconscious. And if he got unconscious, the stabbers could have easily finished the job. Ok, maybe some other people from the Night's Watched managed to stop all of them, but maybe not. I think the odds are that Jon is dead.


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Agreed. It makes no sense to leave off with "is Jon alive or isn't he?" when you just plan on him dying anyway...a much better cliffhanger is "OMG, Jon is dead!!!"

And the language surrounding the event is very vague.

So yeah, I don't think he's dead yet either. I do believe he will warg Ghost, simply because there is so much evidence supporting that scenario.mm

Hmm, a decent point. Never considered that before.

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The text doesn't say the blade was buried "up to the hilt". We don't know the length of the blade ( but I would assume at least 5 in.) We don't know how many layers of clothing and protection Jon was wearing. It's impossible that Wick hit harder and deeper. Blood would be everywhere..

I can't share your idea of comfort.. In that climate, wearing only one inch of clothing / protection ..without access to modern fabrics.. would be damned uncomfortable and probably life threatening.

Stabbed in the arm? You're inventing your own attackers, but I'm sticking with George's..... Stiff and clumsy ? There's a good chance Jon's sword has been interfered with ( Ghost had a reason for wanting to bite Mully)..and there's a good chance that Jon wasn't wearing gloves, or how would he have known blood was welling between his fingers? The wound was not in a place he could see ,so he must have felt it. It's cold..cold makes anyone's fingers seem stiff and clumsy.

He would know a dagger from a push or a shove, if he could see it. Jon has some unusual attributes, but not eyes in the back of his head (or the side of his neck).

The text does say that it felt like Bowen Marsh punched him in the belly. When he pulled his hand away the dagger remained. So either the dagger had a really long hilt or it was buried up to the hilt because his fist made contact.

They wore leathers and furs. None of which are going to offer more than an inch of thickness.

Check out this picture for reference. Including all the layers of leather and cloth we're still looking at no more than an inch. As far as I can see, less.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140629153115/gameofthrones/de/images/5/55/Jon-Snow-Season-4-jon-snow-36898045-745-1004.jpg

Inch thick clothing is HEAVY first of all and nobody is going to want to walk around in it for very long. Leather is light enough for its durability and works pretty well to stop grazing blows. Obviously you train to parry and dodge. Failing that a really big shield.

Yep, I invented another attacker. Hey, this is Castle Black right? In the midst of a mutiny? I'm guessing there were more attackers than just Wick and Bowen Marsh. Call me crazy.

Jon Snow has been in the north all his life and north of the wall on a number of endeavors. If his hands aren't working it isn't the cold.

Someone stabbing you and someone shoving you are entirely different feelings.

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The text does say that it felt like Bowen Marsh punched him in the belly. When he pulled his hand away the dagger remained. So either the dagger had a really long hilt or it was buried up to the hilt because his fist made contact.

They wore leathers and furs. None of which are going to offer more than an inch of thickness.

Check out this picture for reference. Including all the layers of leather and cloth we're still looking at no more than an inch. As far as I can see, less.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140629153115/gameofthrones/de/images/5/55/Jon-Snow-Season-4-jon-snow-36898045-745-1004.jpg

Inch thick clothing is HEAVY first of all and nobody is going to want to walk around in it for very long. Leather is light enough for its durability and works pretty well to stop grazing blows. Obviously you train to parry and dodge. Failing that a really big shield.

Yep, I invented another attacker. Hey, this is Castle Black right? In the midst of a mutiny? I'm guessing there were more attackers than just Wick and Bowen Marsh. Call me crazy.

Jon Snow has been in the north all his life and north of the wall on a number of endeavors. If his hands aren't working it isn't the cold.

Someone stabbing you and someone shoving you are entirely different feelings.

Precisely and the descriptive words to describe such an action are not used. Thus my example of Cat's burning back and Jon simply grunting. Jon's reaction is not consistent with some being stabbed between the shoulder blades.

Also there is the blade being stuck in Jon, there are no bones in your belly. So what did the blade get stuck in? It wouldn't stick in leather in the same way Martin described it. It would stick into something hard, such as mail, or a hipbone, or even a solid belt/buckle.

Buried blade. You sort of answer your own question. You stated that they wear furs and leather. The furs especially are "fluffy" for a lack of a better term, so even when Marsh stabs him through all of this, the hilt would in fact bury into Jon's attire, but that does not mean the blade went far. Also curiously Martin says nothing about blood, instead smoke.

For such a grisly scene, there is an extraordinary lack of blood aside from Jon's neck scratch.

Ok. I am going to play the other side of the card here. Jon's neck wound is bad and deep. The gut shot went all the way in, so a 5 in. blade stuffed in. The Blade to the back went through his shoulder blades. I am going to take this from a medical perspective here.

1. Neck - Jon would be bleeding profusely and grabbing his neck. Most likely the blade would have nicked the carotid artery, and Jon would die from that. However, he would be grabbing his neck to stop the bleeding as it would be pouring down his neck.

2. The gut shot - There are many, many vessels there as well. Jon would be bleeding badly and likely grabbing his stomach.

3. Blade between the blades. It would have stuck in his shoulder blade, or missed the blades and went directly into his spine. Missing either of these and sliding between the rib cage is possible, but less likely. So Jon is currently bleeding profusely from his neck and his belly. He has each of his hands on both wounds, and his back would be in excruciating pain or the blade pieced the spine and thus Jon is paralyzed. If it passed each and pierced the rib cage, then jon would have a terrible time breathing and the pain would be great.

Either we have to see this scene as completely deceptive, or Martin rushed the scene and left out a ton of descriptive words that would most definitely be needed to describe such a harrowing scene. Since Martin curiously leaves blood out of the scene minus the neck wound, and pain is reduced to a rather insignificant role, the scene is problematic. Pain washed over jon, but he was hit in the belly, cut his neck, and then took a shot to the back. He should feel some pain. If those wounds are truly as they appear to be, there should be a significant amount of blood and pain; neither of which are really in the scene.

Tying into Bemused's recent thread on Jon the berserker, I think what occurred from the attackers pov is a botched assassination attempt. It is also curious that Martin chose to use the stewards for the attack and not NW Rangers. It would be unbelievable if Rangers failed, but stewards?

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I agree with your theory. I don't think the wounds are clearly lethal. And GRRM is known to leave a few characters "presumed dead" for the cliffhanger effect - Arya with the axe of the back of the head, Bran and Rickon, and on and on. It's one of the plot devices he loves. I honestly feel like if Jon were dead (or truly dying) his chapter would be last, rather than second to last. The death of a main character is a stronger, more poignant end note than Dany meeting up with some Dothraki she hasn't seen since AGoT. But, who knows, right?



I also think, from a story perspective, what would Ghost!Jon accomplish? I see the possible foreshadowing in the prologue and think it would be cool for Jon to really learn the extent of his warging powers. But those seem rather distant from the main trust of action he is apart of now. Also, for him to be "dead" or "mostly dead" just seems like it will slow down the pace of the story progression dramatically (and ADWD was already a bit longwinded). So I just dread how much time it will take for Jon to learn about R+L=J, reclaim the Wall, fight Ramsey and the Boltons/back up Stannis, save the wildlings, and learn about AAR if he spends a few chapters roaming the North as a wolf in the penultimate novel.


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Either we have to see this scene as completely deceptive, or Martin rushed the scene and left out a ton of descriptive words that would most definitely be needed to describe such a harrowing scene. Since Martin curiously leaves blood out of the scene minus the neck wound, and pain is reduced to a rather insignificant role, the scene is problematic. Pain washed over jon, but he was hit in the belly, cut his neck, and then took a shot to the back. He should feel some pain. If those wounds are truly as they appear to be, there should be a significant amount of blood and pain; neither of which are really in the scene.

Tying into Bemused's recent thread on Jon the berserker, I think what occurred from the attackers pov is a botched assassination attempt. It is also curious that Martin chose to use the stewards for the attack and not NW Rangers. It would be unbelievable if Rangers failed, but stewards?

Agreed--Martin doesn't shy away from describing bloody wounds. Though I am prejudiced in favor of anything that gets away from Jon needing resurrection.

Still, it could set Mel up to do something horrifically stupid--if Jon is down at all, she decides he's AA and sacrifices Shireen. Creates the next big horror Jon must deal with. The botched assassination thus doesn't set up Jon for resurrection (like all of the other horrible resurrections). It sets up Jon to deal with the clash between Mel and the Watch--at the very least. Not to mention whatever Mel's fire magic might do if she does sacrifice Shireen. And all for nothing.

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I don't think Jon is dead but I do think the gut-shot, for lack of a better term, actually did some serious damage. He's not in need of resurrection, but he is in need of a great deal of healing, and if not in shock he's in a great deal of pain. Where to go to escape that pain? Ghost. I think he's going to leave his body while he heals and warg into Ghost. No death, no resurrection, just plain and simple Stark warging. If all the Stark kids are wargs, it seems odd to me that we've never seen any of them but Bran manage to actually do it.


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Hmm, a decent point. Never considered that before.

Not a decent point, GRRM is known for keeping his options open...

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Precisely and the descriptive words to describe such an action are not used. Thus my example of Cat's burning back and Jon simply grunting. Jon's reaction is not consistent with some being stabbed between the shoulder blades.

Also there is the blade being stuck in Jon, there are no bones in your belly. So what did the blade get stuck in? It wouldn't stick in leather in the same way Martin described it. It would stick into something hard, such as mail, or a hipbone, or even a solid belt/buckle.

Buried blade. You sort of answer your own question. You stated that they wear furs and leather. The furs especially are "fluffy" for a lack of a better term, so even when Marsh stabs him through all of this, the hilt would in fact bury into Jon's attire, but that does not mean the blade went far. Also curiously Martin says nothing about blood, instead smoke.

For such a grisly scene, there is an extraordinary lack of blood aside from Jon's neck scratch.

Ok. I am going to play the other side of the card here. Jon's neck wound is bad and deep. The gut shot went all the way in, so a 5 in. blade stuffed in. The Blade to the back went through his shoulder blades. I am going to take this from a medical perspective here.

1. Neck - Jon would be bleeding profusely and grabbing his neck. Most likely the blade would have nicked the carotid artery, and Jon would die from that. However, he would be grabbing his neck to stop the bleeding as it would be pouring down his neck.

2. The gut shot - There are many, many vessels there as well. Jon would be bleeding badly and likely grabbing his stomach.

3. Blade between the blades. It would have stuck in his shoulder blade, or missed the blades and went directly into his spine. Missing either of these and sliding between the rib cage is possible, but less likely. So Jon is currently bleeding profusely from his neck and his belly. He has each of his hands on both wounds, and his back would be in excruciating pain or the blade pieced the spine and thus Jon is paralyzed. If it passed each and pierced the rib cage, then jon would have a terrible time breathing and the pain would be great.

Either we have to see this scene as completely deceptive, or Martin rushed the scene and left out a ton of descriptive words that would most definitely be needed to describe such a harrowing scene. Since Martin curiously leaves blood out of the scene minus the neck wound, and pain is reduced to a rather insignificant role, the scene is problematic. Pain washed over jon, but he was hit in the belly, cut his neck, and then took a shot to the back. He should feel some pain. If those wounds are truly as they appear to be, there should be a significant amount of blood and pain; neither of which are really in the scene.

Tying into Bemused's recent thread on Jon the berserker, I think what occurred from the attackers pov is a botched assassination attempt. It is also curious that Martin chose to use the stewards for the attack and not NW Rangers. It would be unbelievable if Rangers failed, but stewards?

Well, it does say a knife took him between the shoulder blades. What are we supposed to believe that to mean?

The blade sticks because you have muscles in your abdomen. You never see a dagger stick in someone's abdomen to then just glide out on its own. This is because the muscle wall holds it in. It is also very painful. Enough to drop you to your knees. Then behind that wall of muscle which isn't very thick you have all your vital organs. Being hit in the belly proper means stomach, pancreas and/or intestines would be pierced.

Those are mortal wounds in that world / period. Food leaves the gut into the bloodstream causing shock almost immediately. If a lung is one of the punctured organs it's almost the same thing except your oxygen intake drops substantially and you can't stay up. All these organs would be bleeding internally so just because there is not much blood on the scene doesn't mean he isn't bleeding out inside. This is especially complicated if one of the arteries running through that area is also torn / pierced.

People get hit with abdominal wounds in the real world and die within minutes before modern medicine can arrive to administer help. While it does depend on where on the abdomen you are struck with a big enough blade it becomes a catch-all. The longer blade is going to tear / pierce more organs.

The text doesn't say the third knife hit a shoulder blade. It just says it took him between the shoulder blades. This would have been a shot in the back right near or on the spinal column. If it wasn't permanent loss of control it could be temporary, too. Anyways it was with enough force to knock him to the ground.

And then all he felt was the cold. That means there probably wasn't enough blood / oxygen / control in his body anymore to feel any burning. Unlike Cat who was very much still alive and not mortally wounded by the bolt in her back. There are lots of places you can get hit on your back that won't be mortal wounds and it likely came from the balcony a floor up so accuracy isn't going to be the best. Most likely it hit her somewhere she wasn't mortally wounded but definitely felt it.

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Precisely and the descriptive words to describe such an action are not used. Thus my example of Cat's burning back and Jon simply grunting. Jon's reaction is not consistent with some being stabbed between the shoulder blades.

Also there is the blade being stuck in Jon, there are no bones in your belly. So what did the blade get stuck in? It wouldn't stick in leather in the same way Martin described it. It would stick into something hard, such as mail, or a hipbone, or even a solid belt/buckle.

Buried blade. You sort of answer your own question. You stated that they wear furs and leather. The furs especially are "fluffy" for a lack of a better term, so even when Marsh stabs him through all of this, the hilt would in fact bury into Jon's attire, but that does not mean the blade went far. Also curiously Martin says nothing about blood, instead smoke.

For such a grisly scene, there is an extraordinary lack of blood aside from Jon's neck scratch.

Ok. I am going to play the other side of the card here. Jon's neck wound is bad and deep. The gut shot went all the way in, so a 5 in. blade stuffed in. The Blade to the back went through his shoulder blades. I am going to take this from a medical perspective here.

1. Neck - Jon would be bleeding profusely and grabbing his neck. Most likely the blade would have nicked the carotid artery, and Jon would die from that. However, he would be grabbing his neck to stop the bleeding as it would be pouring down his neck.

2. The gut shot - There are many, many vessels there as well. Jon would be bleeding badly and likely grabbing his stomach.

3. Blade between the blades. It would have stuck in his shoulder blade, or missed the blades and went directly into his spine. Missing either of these and sliding between the rib cage is possible, but less likely. So Jon is currently bleeding profusely from his neck and his belly. He has each of his hands on both wounds, and his back would be in excruciating pain or the blade pieced the spine and thus Jon is paralyzed. If it passed each and pierced the rib cage, then jon would have a terrible time breathing and the pain would be great.

Either we have to see this scene as completely deceptive, or Martin rushed the scene and left out a ton of descriptive words that would most definitely be needed to describe such a harrowing scene. Since Martin curiously leaves blood out of the scene minus the neck wound, and pain is reduced to a rather insignificant role, the scene is problematic. Pain washed over jon, but he was hit in the belly, cut his neck, and then took a shot to the back. He should feel some pain. If those wounds are truly as they appear to be, there should be a significant amount of blood and pain; neither of which are really in the scene.

Tying into Bemused's recent thread on Jon the berserker, I think what occurred from the attackers pov is a botched assassination attempt. It is also curious that Martin chose to use the stewards for the attack and not NW Rangers. It would be unbelievable if Rangers failed, but stewards?

You ought to google stabbed in stomach and see that blades do not just drop out even if there is no clothes nor they do bleed out if you do not remove the knife. Now we do not know whether the knife hit vital organs but there is nothing to say this is not a major injury either.

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You ought to google stabbed in stomach and see that blades do not just drop out even if there is no clothes nor they do bleed out if you do not remove the knife. Now we do not know whether the knife hit vital organs but there is nothing to say this is not a major injury either.

You don't need to struggle to get the blade free. Even then there would be a significant amount of blood.

Wrenched - definition is pull or twist violently. That is not consistent with a blade going into tissue.

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Well, it does say a knife took him between the shoulder blades. What are we supposed to believe that to mean?

The blade sticks because you have muscles in your abdomen. You never see a dagger stick in someone's abdomen to then just glide out on its own. This is because the muscle wall holds it in. It is also very painful. Enough to drop you to your knees. Then behind that wall of muscle which isn't very thick you have all your vital organs. Being hit in the belly proper means stomach, pancreas and/or intestines would be pierced.

Those are mortal wounds in that world / period. Food leaves the gut into the bloodstream causing shock almost immediately. If a lung is one of the punctured organs it's almost the same thing except your oxygen intake drops substantially and you can't stay up. All these organs would be bleeding internally so just because there is not much blood on the scene doesn't mean he isn't bleeding out inside. This is especially complicated if one of the arteries running through that area is also torn / pierced.

People get hit with abdominal wounds in the real world and die within minutes before modern medicine can arrive to administer help. While it does depend on where on the abdomen you are struck with a big enough blade it becomes a catch-all. The longer blade is going to tear / pierce more organs.

The text doesn't say the third knife hit a shoulder blade. It just says it took him between the shoulder blades. This would have been a shot in the back right near or on the spinal column. If it wasn't permanent loss of control it could be temporary, too. Anyways it was with enough force to knock him to the ground.

And then all he felt was the cold. That means there probably wasn't enough blood / oxygen / control in his body anymore to feel any burning. Unlike Cat who was very much still alive and not mortally wounded by the bolt in her back. There are lots of places you can get hit on your back that won't be mortal wounds and it likely came from the balcony a floor up so accuracy isn't going to be the best. Most likely it hit her somewhere she wasn't mortally wounded but definitely felt it.

First bold - that is not always the case. We have several documented examples of men losing arms, legs, eyes, etc during battle and not dying. It certain was the case, but it isn't absolute.

Yes I know that is precisely what I said. I gave three possible points where the blade could hit and the consequences of it.

Again you are missing the most important point. Martin does not integrate any descriptive mechanism to suggest excruciating pain or massive blood loss.

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What if Jon doesn't warg anything but instead his body is warged?

By Bran? Now that would be an interesting development.

I don't know how likely that is, but it would be interesting.

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By Bran? Now that would be an interesting development.

I don't know how likely that is, but it would be interesting.

i think it was wick whittlestick who put up his arms as if to say "it wasn't me." Im also pretty sure the 3 eyed crow has been skinchanging into mormont's raven,

Okay, the last one is a joke, but I actually saw a poster say that bran and/or bloodraven are skinchanging into the attackers In my lurking days. It's an interesting thought.

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i think it was wick whittlestick who put up his arms as if to say "it wasn't me." Im also pretty sure the 3 eyed crow has been skinchanging into mormont's raven,

Okay, the last one is a joke, but I actually saw a poster say that bran and/or bloodraven are skinchanging into the attackers In my lurking days. It's an interesting thought.

Yep it was Wick.

When I first came across discussions on the scene, there were several ideas floating around that they were somehow coerced into doing it. I don't believe I heard the BR/Bran ideas, however. Some people actually put Mel as one of those responsible, which never felt quite right to me.

It does seem that someone warged them, but can one person warg several men at the same time?

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Well I figured it was Bloodraven warging a wight (or just a dead Night's Watchman) to give us Coldhands. I thought about Bran warging Jon yesterday and mentioned it in another thread. If you open up the possibility Bran could do it, BR could or even possibly the WW's, I suppose. I mean deep down I want Jon to stay Jon and pull through the attack so he can go on to be the hero I want him to be. However, Martin has yet to let us have a straight up 'good guy'. Each character's arc seems to stay constantly revolving and evolving. At times we hate them then, next thing we know, they're the closest thing to the good guy we've got. It's not beyond reason to expect a cruel twist such as having one of the most likely saviors of Westeros become a champion of the Great Other.


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There are 4 wounds, at least. The first cut is enough to have him weak. The 2nd is a dagger in the belly. A dagger is not a small knife! And belly wounds are extremely lethal, even if death is not immediate. The 3rd is another dagger in the back. And there is at least another one. If there was only one wound, you could believe it spared vital organs. But with four?



And BTW, what would be the point of wounding Jon, even very severely, if it was to have him back to square one in the next book? With just a few annoying brothers missing? Such changes could be done with a minor struggle, some wound to remember, like after his fight with Othor in book 1. No, this awful cliffhanger, the biggest of all the books so far, must be for something huge. GRRM did a lot of "apparently dead but not dead" already, but none like this one.



I believe Jon must advance to the next stage. Like Daenerys did at the end of book 1. We arrive at book 6, it should be time to start revealing what Jon is (what, not who). At least some of it.


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And BTW, what would be the point of wounding Jon, even very severely, if it was to have him back to square one in the next book? With just a few annoying brothers missing? Such changes could be done with a minor struggle, some wound to remember, like after his fight with Othor in book 1. No, this awful cliffhanger, the biggest of all the books so far, must be for something huge. GRRM did a lot of "apparently dead but not dead" already, but none like this one.

I believe Jon must advance to the next stage. Like Daenerys did at the end of book 1. We arrive at book 6, it should be time to start revealing what Jon is (what, not who). At least some of it.

The point of his being attacked by the Watch and not dying--I mentioned Mel above as at least an option. She does something horrible to "revive" him, or even tries to sacrifice him for Stannis--something. All sorts of things could advance the plot from there--perhaps the most fantastic would be her bringing down the Wall (not really likely). Or, more humanely, sets John up to break from the Watch overall. Or other things (obviously).

Not sure what it could mean, but I do think cliffhanger and red-herring can work together here--we are hoping Jon lives. We assume since Mel is at the Wall she will raise him. And, for readers invested in Jon as "what" he is (I assume you are arguing that he is the balance of ice and fire--apologies if my assumptions are presumptuous), those readers assume that's where this is going. Which means readers assume the wounds are fatal.

But if the wounds aren't fatal as argued in the OP (well done, by the way, and thank you!), if this is a cliffhanger AND a red herring--that could have very interesting implications.

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