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JonisHenryTudor

Why I believe Jon is NOT in need of resurrection/warging

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It occurs to me that the show may possibly spoil this next episode. While I guess it is possible to still be ambiguous, or the show may simply change things, it is not as easy to mislead the viewer as it is a reader with a play on words. If we see Jon un-moving in a puddle of blood with a sword through his chest, that will be a pretty big hint that he needs warging or resurrection.



I wish I was more patient, I considered not watching the next episode but I don't think I will be able to resist, I simply want to know what happens too much. I will stop talking about this matter in the book forum after seeing it, but I feel any discussion on this will soon be a little bit compromised.


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It occurs to me that the show may possibly spoil this next episode. While I guess it is possible to still be ambiguous, or the show may simply change things, it is not as easy to mislead the viewer as it is a reader with a play on words. If we see Jon un-moving in a puddle of blood with a sword through his chest, that will be a pretty big hint that he needs warging or resurrection.

I wish I was more patient, I considered not watching the next episode but I don't think I will be able to resist, I simply want to know what happens too much. I will stop talking about this matter in the book forum after seeing it, but I feel any discussion on this will soon be a little bit compromised.

I know, I will give to the show no more credit than to anything speculated by anyone in the book's forum. For whatever the subject.

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Steam is not smoke (and wounds are not usually described as smoking in these books), but in the case of a dragon the description is not so surprising. A dragon has everything to do with fire. Then another wound is described in the same way only a few chapters later, specifically in the case of a character the reader has reason to suspect to be a "metaphorical" dragon. (The writer could easily have used steam if he truly meant just "steam" and no connection between the two chapters.) Just how likely is it that the second instance of a smoking wound is totally accidental and that we are not meant to pick up on the connection?

It is not totally accidental, but there is no connection...

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No, no, Balerion ...I didn't necessarily think you like something in Mel.. Please be reassured. I took it that you were thinking such a resurrection, or healing by Mel would only add to Jon's character, provided he had first warged into Ghost.. If I'm wrong, I apologize for the misunderstanding. My own feeling is that it would take something away from Jon.. weaken his essence, in some way.



(I see Mel - in brief - as a very sad character, who has lost her humanity almost completely ,if not completely. I think she's misguided and unfortunately has enough power to sway or convert other people and to horrible things in the service of her mistaken ideas.)



Concerning the gods, very briefly.. Magic exists, naturally in that world. It's part of nature. In our world, many gods have been percieved by (or invented by) men as they struggled to find understanding of nature and the why of it . (Were they all real? or are they aspects of what may be real? )


Same thing in the novels.. Because magic is real it can be manipulated.


Maybe the situation the world finds itself in is an imbalance created at some point by someone's (or multiple someones') manipulations, or maybe there's another answer. But I believe GRRM has said that no God(s) will be putting in a personal appearance in the series. So he may well leave it to us to draw our own conclusions.


The closest things to "gods" we've met (IMO) .. are "the old gods" which are perceived to be the weirwoods by the CoTF and have been rendered communicative (to a degree) by greenseers joining with them .. but that may merely be due to the fact that they are pretty well immortal unless they're destroyed .They have magical influences and potential, but whether they have any intention themselves, remains to be seen.


It's an example of Varys' riddle .. Power resides where men believe it to reside..and that causes them to act in ways that are bound to have consequences...In that case, the belief itself holds the power, not the thing that men believe in.


Bloodraven was accounted a very powerful sorcerer before he ever went to the Wall. But while I'm not looking to him to perform an actual resurrection,I wouldn't guarantee he couldn't .. Still, after Leaf's warning to Bran not to try to call Ned back from death.. I think it's a thing no-one in the "old gods" camp thinks is wise.



But then, I don't think a resurrection will be necessary.


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It is not totally accidental, but there is no connection...

That's your interpretation. I'll stick with mine.

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No, no, Balerion ...I didn't necessarily think you like something in Mel.. Please be reassured. I took it that you were thinking such a resurrection, or healing by Mel would only add to Jon's character, provided he had first warged into Ghost.. If I'm wrong, I apologize for the misunderstanding. My own feeling is that it would take something away from Jon.. weaken his essence, in some way.

(I see Mel - in brief - as a very sad character, who has lost her humanity almost completely ,if not completely. I think she's misguided and unfortunately has enough power to sway or convert other people and to horrible things in the service of her mistaken ideas.)

Concerning the gods, very briefly.. Magic exists, naturally in that world. It's part of nature. In our world, many gods have been percieved by (or invented by) men as they struggled to find understanding of nature and the why of it . (Were they all real? or are they aspects of what may be real? )

Same thing in the novels.. Because magic is real it can be manipulated.

Maybe the situation the world finds itself in is an imbalance created at some point by someone's (or multiple someones') manipulations, or maybe there's another answer. But I believe GRRM has said that no God(s) will be putting in a personal appearance in the series. So he may well leave it to us to draw our own conclusions.

The closest things to "gods" we've met (IMO) .. are "the old gods" which are perceived to be the weirwoods by the CoTF and have been rendered communicative (to a degree) by greenseers joining with them .. but that may merely be due to the fact that they are pretty well immortal unless they're destroyed .They have magical influences and potential, but whether they have any intention themselves, remains to be seen.

It's an example of Varys' riddle .. Power resides where men believe it to reside..and that causes them to act in ways that are bound to have consequences...In that case, the belief itself holds the power, not the thing that men believe in.

Bloodraven was accounted a very powerful sorcerer before he ever went to the Wall. But while I'm not looking to him to perform an actual resurrection,I wouldn't guarantee he couldn't .. Still, after Leaf's warning to Bran not to try to call Ned back from death.. I think it's a thing no-one in the "old gods" camp thinks is wise.

But then, I don't think a resurrection will be necessary.

Thank you.

I completely share your view concerning Melisandre. I know, many people believe she will resurrect Jon some way. Usually by burning Shireen or Ghost. Don't count me on that wagon. In fact, I strongly believe she couldn't do it. Not even her god R'hllor could. Bloodraven couldn't either. And Mirri Maz Duur couldn't have brought back Drogo's soul, whatever the price paid. And like you, I'm glad Melisandre can't.

She may heal someone's body, like Moqorro did for Victarion. The worst case scenario would be Jon is wounded by alive, and Melisandre heals him like Moqorro did. But bring back the soul, like it was for Beric or Cat is another story. For me, only the death god can do it, the Stranger or Lion of Night. And if he can bring back the soul, he should be able to do whatever he wants with the body.

I believe different people can do different minor magic. But resurrecting someone is way out of range of any mortal being. That is, for me, one of the evidences that something greater exists. But I know what GRRM said about LOTR, that "Gandalf should have stayed dead". As clear as I see death as a game changer, I'm not sure how GRRM would address Jon's price for returning from death.

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Given how many different Jon's death/resurrection threads are floating around I wonder if we just ought to sticky one like the R+L=J threads...


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Given how many different Jon's death/resurrection threads are floating around I wonder if we just ought to sticky one like the R+L=J threads...

That is usually where I tend to bring these things up, but those threads tend to focus on Jon's arc as incomplete and why he is not dead as a consequence. In this one, I tried to avoid that to suggest that his wounds are not as bad as initially perceived and while all that other stuff matters, Jon's story will continue without a resurrection.

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Don't forget, when Gregor Clegane killed Oberyn Martell, "the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold dawn air." It's an expression Martin uses to indicate there is a LOT of blood being sprayed about.



Bowen Marsh punched Jon in the belly with a knife - that is basically a death sentence without immediate help.



The first wound was serious enough to Jon that he could no longer reach back and grab his sword. The wound was serious enough that the blood came over his fingers that were pressing on top of the wound - if it was just a nick, he would have been able to stanch the bleeding with his fingers. The neck is the home of the carotid artery, which is what may have been "nicked"



The descriptions in the moment also do not support him being a wolf at the time of the stabbing, either. Marsh stabbed him in the gut, then Jon fell to his knees. He then pulled the dagger out, got stabbed in the back and fell face first into the snow. Maybe after he fell face first in the snow he warged into Ghost, which is why he didn't feel the fourth dagger?



But, a belly wound that induces a huge spray of blood, and a neck wound that has blood gushing out of it sound pretty fatal to me.

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Don't forget, when Gregor Clegane killed Oberyn Martell, "the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold dawn air." It's an expression Martin uses to indicate there is a LOT of blood being sprayed about.

Bowen Marsh punched Jon in the belly with a knife - that is basically a death sentence without immediate help.

The first wound was serious enough to Jon that he could no longer reach back and grab his sword. The wound was serious enough that the blood came over his fingers that were pressing on top of the wound - if it was just a nick, he would have been able to stanch the bleeding with his fingers. The neck is the home of the carotid artery, which is what may have been "nicked"

The descriptions in the moment also do not support him being a wolf at the time of the stabbing, either. Marsh stabbed him in the gut, then Jon fell to his knees. He then pulled the dagger out, got stabbed in the back and fell face first into the snow. Maybe after he fell face first in the snow he warged into Ghost, which is why he didn't feel the fourth dagger?

But, a belly wound that induces a huge spray of blood, and a neck wound that has blood gushing out of it sound pretty fatal to me.

I don't know where you are getting blood spraying everywhere. The only mention of blood is the blood welling between his fingers. That is not a lot of blood. Also it is not physiologically possible to have blood gushing from your neck and still disarm a man and attempt to grab your sword.

Jon wears his sword on his hip. It is a bastard sword, so he does not need to reach back.

Smoke - Thanks for that. But may I draw attention to one word there that is not in either of the other scenes "Seemed to smoke". That word is key. That clearly suggests that it may look like smoke, but obviously it is not. That is much different from "the wound was smoking".

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I have absolutely not on my radar something like UnBeric or UnCat. I would not presume on what GRRM will write, but such limited creatures would be a total destruction of what GRRM built so far with Jon. It would be worse than truly dead. I could imagine a temporary state, but I don't believe it likely. (And why would it change later?)

IMO, the super Terminator Jon is not GRRM style either. His characters must be vulnerable, at least those he intends to keep alive. But Jon could become something slightly more than human. For example, his blood smoking like (apparently) Melisandre. Something which will make the difference in the end, but is not evident yet.

Again, injury or temporary death, I'm not doing a fixation on it. I will not repeat, but IMHO, every points presented here suggest a death and rebirth in Jon 2.0.

In fact, it raises the question of whether GRRM will break his apparent "law of death". So far everyone resurrected was horrible. But could it be different for Jon? My speculation is that death is controlled by the gods, the Lion of Night (another name for the Stranger). This god, maybe with the assistance of the Maiden of Light, could reborn Jon in an improved body. I know this is just speculation, but this is a fantasy novel and the writer's intent takes precedence over realism.

ETA: if the gods intervention is not possible I agree 100% with you.

It seems we agree on most points then. Ultimately it comes down to the question whether Jon can be / would be an exception to the resurrection rules established in the novel.

Divine intervention would make Jon special indeed… or would it? Divine intervention does not have to come in the shape of a miracle. What saved Davos after the Battle of the Blackwater? Was it just dumb luck or divine intervention? (Some readers will call it plot armour...) In any case, we know now that he still had jobs to do. He saved Edric Storm and he advised Stannis to go to the Wall and help the Night’s Watch. Without Davos, Jon Snow would probably have been killed either by the wildlings or by Slynt.

In the case of the stabbing scene, the gods could just stop the daggers before they go too deep, they could simply give Jon some extra strength to survive. Of course, in this case we would probably never find out whether we are meant to suspect divine intervention or not – it would be left to us to decide what we think (just like in the case of Davos and many other cases).

The intervention could also be something much more conspicuous and spectacular though, something that is obviously a miracle. (I’m still not sure it would be made clear to us that it is divine intervention.) Yet… would Martin make Jon return from death stronger and more powerful, like Gandalf? Note that I, personally, never had any problems with Gandalf’s return – he is a Maia, after all, and his death was magical, it was a continued fight, a spiritual journey and discovery. But then Gandalf was mainly a helper, not the hero. He didn’t fight the heroes’ fight, even though he did help.

I admit that Jon tends to be surrounded by a degree of divine symbolism – the Corn King, for example – but this symbolism seems to have to do with giving and self-sacrifice in the first place. As a human, he is most of all a hero, the one who walks the walk and fights the fight, but not a superhero.

To be sure, I wouldn’t throw away my copy of TWoW if Jon pulled a Gandalf there, but such a development would require some very strong explanation either in terms of the gods’ will or in terms of some “Deeper Magic from before the Dawn of Time” (the Dawn part seems quite relevant actually, LOL).

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The 7 apparent absence of involvement has us wondering if the gods really exist or care. But on the other hand, we have strange occurrences. Davos, yes. Bran, still living after his deadly fall. Robb, Balon and Joffrey deaths. Of course we have every logical explanations for their demise, Tywin plan, Euron, Littlefinger... Melisandre predicted it. But had she only predicted it, or made it happen, with her petty blood sacrifice?



And we have supernatural creatures. The dragons, breathing fire. Big flying lizards, why not? But breathing hot fire? Living incredibly long time. Are they natural? Is it magic, or is it gods who created them?



And we have the Children, with their ability to transfer their mind to animals, and even to trees. And for greenseers, to perceive the future and the past. And the warlocks too, by drinking something probably related to the weirwood's essence. How do they have these powers? And the Shadowbinders who can communicate with... something. Pretend to pay blood prices in exchanges for services from these something. Mysterious entities, gods?



Is this magic by magicians? Or priests, puppets or servants, of their gods? If no gods, how did it all started?



And we have one very strange event: the birth of Daenerys' dragons. Who did that? If not a god intervention, who? Daenerys herself? Mirri Maz Duur unwillingly? The eggs and "dumb luck"?



IMHO, when in a story, you have too much incredible luck, either you have a bad writer, or you have some Power/Mind behind it. Call it gods or something else, but the result is extraordinary things, miracles.



To return to Jon. Yes, he could suffer extremely serious wounds, but still survive, possibly with someone healing assistance. But as if by dumb luck or poor plot by the writer. But if anything is changed in him, other than scars and disabilities, it would be the evidence of some divine intervention.


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Great OP! It's been too long since I've read the books and thoughtful posts like this are so helpful in prepping for a re-read. So thank you.





<snip>



Still, with the ambiguity you have exposed in the scene, Martin has lots of options open . . . I just don't like the magic ones.





:agree:





In the cold night air the wound was smoking.



Now let's see a Dany chapter in ADwD:



His spear remained in Drogon's back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound.



Since the cold and the steam were mentioned above, just let me clarify what the weather is like in Meereen that day:



The bricks will soon be baking in the sun, thought Dany. Down on the sands, the fighters will feel the heat through the soles of their sandals.



Well, not exactly wintry. As far as I know, Drogon's wound and Jon's wound are the only wounds in the series described as smoking (though we see many different wounds in all sorts of climates). The climate of the North and that of Meereen are very different, so the conclusion that it's the cold that makes steam look like smoke in Jon's case does not seem very strong, as the same could hardly be said about Drogon. When there are only two wounds in the whole series that smoke, then there must be a connection between them, and it is obviously not the climate. What is more, we know that one of these cases is a magical phenomenon. It is unlikely that GRRM would use the same image just in order to inaccurately describe a totally unrelated phenomenon. After all, what would be the point in describing steam as smoke, when we have already seen that a wound can really smoke?



The smoking is confirmed in the same Dany chapter twice:



His blood was smoking, too, where it dripped upon the ground.



And it is here that we get the magical explanation, and the magic is also explicitly associated with a human being:



Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.



And so is Jon. The connection could hardly be clearer.





Very nice catch!





WOW opens: Marsh carrying Jon's limp body towards an ice cell



Jon: "I don't want to go in the ice cell!"


Marsh: "Quiet, you'll be dead in a moment."


Jon: "I feel better."


Marsh: "No you don't, you'll be stone dead in a moment."


Jon: "I feel HAPPY, so HAPPY!"


Marsh: "You're not fooling anyone."






:rofl:






Julia scooped me, above ;) ... and with more eloquence than I see on my notepad.. Yes, the characters' humanity is what makes the difference, which is partly what I was trying to get at with the Mel quotes.. whatever power she has, she has lost her humanity.


<snip>


As for the Gods, I don't think the gods really exist in the way that many of us, or the characters, would mean by the term.





And she is sapping Stannis's humanity.



Hasn't GRRM made comments to this effect re the gods?





It occurs to me that the show may possibly spoil this next episode. While I guess it is possible to still be ambiguous, or the show may simply change things, it is not as easy to mislead the viewer as it is a reader with a play on words. If we see Jon un-moving in a puddle of blood with a sword through his chest, that will be a pretty big hint that he needs warging or resurrection.



I wish I was more patient, I considered not watching the next episode but I don't think I will be able to resist, I simply want to know what happens too much. I will stop talking about this matter in the book forum after seeing it, but I feel any discussion on this will soon be a little bit compromised.





Uggh. This is my dilemma. My biggest fear after last week is not that the show will depict something as yet unpublished, but that the showrunners will make a point of turning it into a full on spoiler rather than just leaving readers wondering. :(



ETA: Now I'm off to read about berserker Jon, which (I'm sorry I can't help myself) makes me think of Clerks.


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