Astronomy of Ice and Fire: Children of the Dawn, Part Two

[LmL]

Oh and Han Snow, I don't expect everyone to agree with me that Dawn is the original ice, so no worries there. My sword ideas will be a bit controversial. I'm also not 1000% certain... I'm just going to make the best case for what I see as the most probable interpretation of the text. We'll see what folks make of it. :)

[Knight and Dayne]

Thanks for the adviceI I'll dig a bit deeper - I think a lot of this supplements your work, but if I start derailing, just let me know. What I love about your theory is the sense that so many of the religions and cultures of Planetos have significant parallels, suggesting evolutionary branching from a common source. The other explanation is cultural cross-pollination. It seems most of these parallels can be attributed to one or the other.

GEoD is one source, CotF seem like another, but the most puzzling to me is the Andals and the Faith of the Seven. The Seven-Pointed Star seems to emerge apropos of nothing, conquer Westeros, and be associated with a suppression of magic. It's also the only faith that doesn't seem to have any magic associated with it.

[Durran Durrandon]

From what I understand you are saying the BSE overthrew the AE and this is shown through the comet destroying the moon. With the comet destroying the moon this caused the LN. Now after that onto my question.

What came first the BSE overthrowing the AE and then the comet destroying the moon or did it happen the other way round?

Secondly, with the migration are you saying the migration happened during the LN or after the LN?

The million dollar question.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Great job LmL, as always! You certainly do the legwork and make awesome connections!

Heh, I like the Lyanna/Rhaegar v Alys/Sigorn comparison. Alys has even been described in text as a northern maid somehow violated by an unacceptable liaison with an outsider (especially shocking since she was already bethrothed, though not exactly willingly). GRRM is probably throwing us another hint that the official Baratheon version of Rhaegar/Lyanna is bullshit, but also thar these are broader archetypal roles and themes (the stolen bride) that repeat.

I'm still thinking about all the other stuff.

Silver Sea

The drying of the Silver Sea did occur in fact, AND is also a metaphor for the collapse of the Fisher Queen culture and the broader switch from matriarchy to patriarchy. Love all of that, thumbs up.

I initially thought that the sea dried out during the LN, based on the Rhoynish experience of the Rhoyne freezing and drying up. But that would mean they ended at the same time as GEotD collapsed, rather than surviving, with remnants of the GEotD populations finally overwhelming them, at the same time as they are weakened by their sea drying. In other words, the drying was more gradual, following the LN, not during. Maybe when the Arm of Dorne was broken, a warm current from the Summer Sea permanently changed the weather patterns on Essos, which caused the gradual drying of the SS and the Red Waste. (Hmm, I guess this means Westeros was considerably colder during the Dawn Age as well.)

Sarnor

Anyway, the cultural mixing during the collapse of the FQ culture is presented almost as a puzzle: which people had what colour eyes, hair and skin, what was their stature, etc. It needs a table with all the possible contenders and available features, to see who's got what!

The Sarnori in the end were (1) an advanced river culture (2) with iron working in its foundation myth, (3) who were also quite tall (so notably tall that it's part of their name). Almost like the first two show show a Rhoynish link, while the third shows common an Andals link (who are the only other human group particularly noted for their height, right? Not counting Leng).

Common ancestry or descent, if this is a romantic take on migration. Probably lots of mixing, split, influence, conquest, forming and reforming, if more realistic.

But anyway, the Andals didn't just appear at the Axe - they had to come from somewhere. A religious splinter group from the early Sarnori?

But the biggest question about the Sarnori is why the hell the Valyrians never conquered them. Look at where Pentos and Dragonstone are. The Vals had enough influence in the Dothraki Sea to keep the Dothraki down, but not to conquer Sarnor? Who turned out to be super weak? Perhaps Sarnor was left alone, and became complacent, because they had something that the Valyrians feared. Something against dragons. Like maybe what the Martells had (and maybe the Ullers when they shot down Meraxes). Another Rhoynish connection (through Dorne).

Any powerful anti-dragon object or knowledge is a footprint of the GEotD. The migrating remnants brought it to Sarnor (which kept them safe from the Valyrians), and their offshoot population at the Rhoyne had a bastardised version (clearly effective water spells against dragons, but not enough firepower).

[LmL]

I initially thought that the sea dried out during the LN, based on the Rhoynish experience of the Rhoyne freezing and drying up. But that would mean they ended at the same time as GEotD collapsed, rather than surviving, with remnants of the GEotD populations finally overwhelming them, at the same time as they are weakened by their sea drying. In other words, the drying was more gradual, following the LN, not during. Maybe when the Arm of Dorne was broken, a warm current from the Summer Sea permanently changed the weather patterns on Essos, which caused the gradual drying of the SS and the Red Waste. (Hmm, I guess this means Westeros was considerably colder during the Dawn Age as well.)

Yes, this is my thinking exactly. With no warmer summer sea water flowing north, it's likely everything north of the neck would be very, very cold. Makes you wonder about the huge, mysterious, broken fortress at Moat Cailin. I've wondered if this might be the first "Wall." Anyway, yes, I do think the breaking of the arm is really important, and would have altered the climate of Planetos in many ways. I always bring up the idea that England should be tundra except for the Atlantic current carrying warm water in that direction to make this point. One o ft he big dangers of climate change is that the ocean current s might change severely, and leave a place like Europe out in the cold, literally. There other hints that the sea level used to be lower as well, notably the thousand islands people whose fish head gods are carved below the waterline.

TWOIAF calls the breaking of the arm the most significant even in Dorne's history, and perhaps that of Westeros. Given that, and that fact that George has written climate issues into the main part of his backstory and even the main story, and I think it's clear we are supposed to think about these kinds of things.

[Mithras]

Excellent work LmL. Some of my favorite cultures (Jogos Nhai and Sarnor) are here. I think Patrimony of Hyrkoon might have been included in this thread as well.

Every reign of the succeeding Gemstone Emperors was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire.

Jogos Nhai might be among these wild men pressing at the borders of the Great Empire. They have been fighting an eternal war with the Patrimony of Hyrkoon.

[LmL]

Great job LmL, as always! You certainly do the legwork and make awesome connections!

Heh, I like the Lyanna/Rhaegar v Alys/Sigorn comparison. Alys has even been described in text as a northern maid somehow violated by an unacceptable liaison with an outsider (especially shocking since she was already bethrothed, though not exactly willingly). GRRM is probably throwing us another hint that the official Baratheon version of Rhaegar/Lyanna is bullshit, but also thar these are broader archetypal roles and themes (the stolen bride) that repeat.

I'm still thinking about all the other stuff.Silver Sea

The drying of the Silver Sea did occur in fact, AND is also a metaphor for the collapse of the Fisher Queen culture and the broader switch from matriarchy to patriarchy. Love all of that, thumbs up.

Thanks for the kind words LPC. I found the Lyanna / Alys connection by accident while exploring the winter crowns idea. I've had RLJ on the brain a bit lately, so this popped out to me. Sometimes the following cultural history stuff can almost get a bit dry, so it's good to jump off on tangents about things more relevant to the story, I think. That's the whole point of backstory, to give us context for the main characters.

Sarnor

Anyway, the cultural mixing during the collapse of the FQ culture is presented almost as a puzzle: which people had what colour eyes, hair and skin, what was their stature, etc. It needs a table with all the possible contenders and available features, to see who's got what!

The Sarnori in the end were (1) an advanced river culture (2) with iron working in its foundation myth, (3) who were also quite tall (so notably tall that it's part of their name). Almost like the first two show show a Rhoynish link, while the third shows common an Andals link (who are the only other human group particularly noted for their height, right? Not counting Leng).

Common ancestry or descent, if this is a romantic take on migration. Probably lots of mixing, split, influence, conquest, forming and reforming, if more realistic.

But anyway, the Andals didn't just appear at the Axe - they had to come from somewhere. A religious splinter group from the early Sarnori?

But the biggest question about the Sarnori is why the hell the Valyrians never conquered them. Look at where Pentos and Dragonstone are. The Vals had enough influence in the Dothraki Sea to keep the Dothraki down, but not to conquer Sarnor? Who turned out to be super weak? Perhaps Sarnor was left alone, and became complacent, because they had something that the Valyrians feared. Something against dragons. Like maybe what the Martells had (and maybe the Ullers when they shot down Meraxes). Another Rhoynish connection (through Dorne).

Any powerful anti-dragon object or knowledge is a footprint of the GEotD. The migrating remnants brought it to Sarnor (which kept them safe from the Valyrians), and their offshoot population at the Rhoyne had a bastardised version (clearly effective water spells against dragons, but not enough firepower).

Okay, so the Rhoynar - Sarnor connection has occurred to me. That Silver Sea was nice, and the Fisher Queens ruled from a floating palace. First of all, who loves on a floating palace? Sounds fishy to me. Also, it's vaguely similar to Greywater Watch, which moves. The Crannogmen have cotf ancestry, yes, but possibly also Deep Ones / aquatic humanoid ancestry. Point being, floating palace might mean merlings. Selkies. Deep Ones. Whatever. There's a lot of watery stuff going on here.

Dany's hair is described as a river of silver or molten silver, I forget which, while Drogo's hair is a river of darkness, fwiw.

So, the steel and potential water magic makes a connection tempting between Rhoynar and Fisher Queen era Silver Sea kingdoms. As for the idea of having a weapon against dragons... The only weapons I can think of along those lines are: greenseers who can skinchange dragons or just psychically attack them; and dragonbinder horns. The Celtigars have a kraken summoning horn, but the crab opposes the squid in mythology, and supports the dragon, as the Celtigars do. Thus , the dragonbinder horn may be an anti-drago weapon.

[LmL]

Excellent work LmL. Some of my favorite cultures (Jogos Nhai and Sarnor) are here. I think Patrimony of Hyrkoon might have been included in this thread as well.

Every reign of the succeeding Gemstone Emperors was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire.

Jogos Nhai might be among these wild men pressing at the borders of the Great Empire. They have been fighting an eternal war with the Patrimony of Hyrkoon.

Thematically, yes, they should have gone here. But I haven't done their section yet and these had grown so long... Therefore they will go with Yi Ti, Leng, and Qarth.

Thanks and glad you enjoyed it. Anything you have to add, post it and I'll ad it to the OP if I can make it make sense. Thanks for all your input throughout the process, as always. Cheers.

[Mithras]

As for Huzhor Amai, he might be a historical person merged with the legends of an ancient mythical hero just like Artys Arryn and the Winged Knight. That is how the latecomers adapt to the environment they invade.

[Adam de Felden]

I have written elsewhere about the breaking of the arm and I concur that the silver sea, red waste and sand sea where probably victims of weather pattern shifts due to the unification of the two oceans via the stepstone strait. Further I hypothesised that westeros north of Moat Cailin was indeed a frozen landscape, covered predominantly by glacier and shrub land, which culminated in a glacial cap holding in glacial melt water in the area north west of winterfell, the breaking of this glacial cap by the children caused the breaking of the arm, and the inundation of the thousand islands etc.

Nice article as always LmL, have you considered anywhere, I may have missed it, where the origins of the First Men fit in, they predate the LN, and thus would have been coexistent in Essos with the Great Empire, do you hypothesis any connection? My view is that either there was none, or that the migrations of the First Men into the west was caused by adverse pressure from the Great Empire.

I enjoyed this article as I have all your words.

[Adam de Felden]

Further, another connection between Sarnor and YiTi that speaks of a common great empire connection, the history of Sarnor is written in the Annals of Summer and Winter. in our world the ancient Chinese empires of legend, equivalent to the Great Empire are written of in the Annals of Spring and Autumn, an authorial connection, that in my view makes sense for Sarnor, with its otherwise Arthurian sense, if Martin was deliberately trying to bring together in the readers minds lands on both sides of the bones and imply common origin.

Thoughts?

[LmL]

As for Huzhor Amai, he might be a historical person merged with the legends of an ancient mythical hero just like Artys Arryn and the Winged Knight. That is how the latecomers adapt to the environment they invade.

That's quite possible, especially if the Sarnori consolidators / conquerors came over the Bones mountains. I was referring to this general idea with my comment about floppy ears. Artys Aryn had his "floppy ears" added to him in the form of the falcon wings, after the fact.

[LmL]

Further, another connection between Sarnor and YiTi that speaks of a common great empire connection, the history of Sarnor is written in the Annals of Summer and Winter. in our world the ancient Chinese empires of legend, equivalent to the Great Empire are written of in the Annals of Spring and Autumn, an authorial connection, that in my view makes sense for Sarnor, with its otherwise Arthurian sense, if Martin was deliberately trying to bring together in the readers minds lands on both sides of the bones and imply common origin.

Thoughts?

Wow that's really interesting Adam, I didn't know that. It's certainly one more piece of circumstantial evidence. What's the connection between Chinese annals and Arthurian legend exactly? I may not be following you there

[LmL]

I have written elsewhere about the breaking of the arm and I concur that the silver sea, red waste and sand sea where probably victims of weather pattern shifts due to the unification of the two oceans via the stepstone strait. Further I hypothesised that westeros north of Moat Cailin was indeed a frozen landscape, covered predominantly by glacier and shrub land, which culminated in a glacial cap holding in glacial melt water in the area north west of winterfell, the breaking of this glacial cap by the children caused the breaking of the arm, and the inundation of the thousand islands etc.

Nice article as always LmL, have you considered anywhere, I may have missed it, where the origins of the First Men fit in, they predate the LN, and thus would have been coexistent in Essos with the Great Empire, do you hypothesis any connection? My view is that either there was none, or that the migrations of the First Men into the west was caused by adverse pressure from the Great Empire.

I enjoyed this article as I have all your words.

I haven't gotten to the FM yet in finished essay, but do have some stuff written about them. Basically, they seem to have come over the arm before it broke, before the LN. This means their migration from the the pre-Sarnor Silver Sea area or wherever they came form began centuries if not millennia before the LN. They would have come so far, over land and through centuries, that I don't think we can expect to see any GEotD influence. The houses which do have potentially unique and foreign origins, different form the other FM. So for the most part, I consider the FM to be their own thing,

[Adam de Felden]

Ah. you misunderstand me, there is no connection between them. my meaning was that the Ancient Sarnori, are more influenced by Arthurian legend than anything else, and there is otherwise little Chinese about them, hence why place an obvious nod to China with them, rather than including it with YiTi, which was clearly based on China. Martin isn't a fool and if he makes such a seemingly obvious error then there must be a reason for it. So my view of there being a connection between the Sarnor and YiTi which could only come from Great Empire.

[LmL]

Oh ok I gotchya. I agree it may be meant to convey a link. It seems like the Sarnori imported some GEotD influence and combined it with Silver Sea propaganda, so to speak. Turned out pretty well for five thousand years or so. ;)

[TheSmallOther]

I've begun thinking of the "falling star" of Dayne mythology as probably being metaphorical rather than referring to a literal comet. So "forged from the heart of a fallen star" - fallen star could refer to the fallen Great Empire; the ancestral sword being the "heart" of its power, signifying a legitimate ruler. Or the sword itself was forged during the Empire's golden age, the "heart" of its power in that sense. The falling star might also refer to the AE herself, who directed them to go to that location when she knew she was going to die. (So "followed a falling star" meant following the directions of the fallen AE.) Particularly if the GEotD shared the Dothraki idea about souls going to the stars, and the BER did something to the AE that would prevent her soul from going up to the stars. In that sense she would be a "fallen" star, not able to go up into the sky.

I dunno, kind of spitballing, I will have a good think about this, though. Leave it to GRRM to make even the mythology of his world hella complicated. :-P

I might be wrong, but it seems to me we do not have many swords like Dawn. And since these swords are so good and valuable, I expect people should try to save them for future generations. While this symbolism you mentioned might be right, I'd rather think about this event being literal. I.e., that there was a fallen star (meteorite) which was used to make sword.

[TheSmallOther]

TWOIAF calls the breaking of the arm the most significant even in Dorne's history, and perhaps that of Westeros. Given that, and that fact that George has written climate issues into the main part of his backstory and even the main story, and I think it's clear we are supposed to think about these kinds of things.

Or if some moon was really shattered (rare fact in our world, but still possible), then it would also explain changes in climate.

[LordImp]

A question. You think Dawn is original ice and probably made of ice. If i dont remember wrong you suggested in a previous thread that Dawn the original ice was made from a small comet who came from the ice Moon?

[Equilibrium]

Great work as always. Nothing significant to add really, it's so nicely done.

Can't wait for the Andal part, you what I think of Faith of the Seven and Andal/Sarnor connection.