Astronomy of Ice and Fire: Children of the Dawn, Part Two

[LmL]

The only reason I hesitate to make too much of cremation is that it's a fairly common practice and can certainly be invented independently. It's just not distinctive enough of a thing to really hang your hat on. So I keep looking for more clues and keep it in mind as a possibility...

[vuk]

Yes, cremation is faster way to rid off the dead in fact. . :-) maybe burning was necesarry in first place and later became a funeral ritual.

[LmL]

Vuk it's still in the "hypothesis" category as opposed to the "theory" category, but I do like it and I hope there's something to it. I first came across the idea in the last thread (or was it two theeads ago?) when I did an analysis on the Davos chapter where he chases the shadows and has a shadow like a sword.

Right now I'm just on the lookout for evidence to see if this idea holds any water.

[Mithras]

House Jordayne of Tor is George’s homage to Robert Jordan. But still, it seems to have significance other than being a simple homage. House Jordayne seems to be a cadet branch of House Dayne (Tor Dayne > Jordayne). This is similar to Karhold Stark > Karstark.

Jordayne sigil has a golden quill on a checkered base. Compare that to the sword in the Dayne sigil. “Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens.”

[LmL]

The Quill of the Morning shall rise! :cheers:

[Julia H.]

LmL, I have read your astronomy essays and many (though not all) of the comments. They have changed the series for me forever. Amazing work, and I look forward to reading the next instalment.

[LmL]

Thanks Julia, and yes, once you "see" the astronomy metaphors, you can't "un-see"them. :) They are everywhere. I find at least one new one every day.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

House Jordayne of Tor is George’s homage to Robert Jordan. But still, it seems to have significance other than being a simple homage. House Jordayne seems to be a cadet branch of House Dayne (Tor Dayne > Jordayne). This is similar to Karhold Stark > Karstark.

Jordayne sigil has a golden quill on a checkered base. Compare that to the sword in the Dayne sigil. “Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens.”

Sorry, this isn't about you, really it's not. I just keep seeing this all over and I have to say something.

It's Karlon Stark. Karhold is the name of the keep. Karlon was the Stark from whom House Karstark descended.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Sorry, this isn't about you, really it's not. I just keep seeing this all over and I have to say something.

It's Karlon Stark. Karhold is the name of the keep. Karlon was the Stark from whom House Karstark descended.

If you're discussing how Karstark the name developed, Karhold is a more relevant word than Karlon (even though he was the progenitor).

"The Karstarks traced their descent to Karlon Stark, a younger son of Winterfell who had put down a rebel lord a thousand years ago, and been granted lands for his valor. The castle he built had been named Karl's Hold, but that soon became Karhold, and over the centuries the Karhold Starks had become Karstarks." - ASOS

They were expressly named after the keep itself, rather than after the guy.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If you're discussing how Karstark the name developed, Karhold is a more relevant word than Karlon (even though he was the progenitor).

"The Karstarks traced their descent to Karlon Stark, a younger son of Winterfell who had put down a rebel lord a thousand years ago, and been granted lands for his valor. The castle he built had been named Karl's Hold, but that soon became Karhold, and over the centuries the Karhold Starks had become Karstarks." - ASOS

They were expressly named after the keep itself, rather than after the guy.

Named after the keep that was named after Karlon.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

But never known as Karlon's Starks. Rather, as Karhold Starks. So, a very relevant comparison in the "Tor Dayne" context (as the Tor is also a keep, and may have given rise to the family's name).

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Mind you, the worldbook says the Jordaynes were Andals, but given the Dayne name connection, maybe there's a maternal link or a name change or something.

[LmL]

So it occurred to me today that I missed a couple of things:

The Dothraki and Jogos Nhai both have a prophecy of a great ruler who will "unite the clans" and lead their people over the mountain. That's certainly confirmation of a joint origin.

The Dothraki believe their dead khals ascend to the stars on fiery horses, while the GEotD God Emperor ascended to the stars to join his for bearers. Very similar concept.

I will be updating the Op.

[The Mother of The Others]

(paging TMOTO) The sun's mother is a witch queen - the mother of the Others???? Can it be?

What What ?

The Stranger holds the key. Stars for eyes. Blue as the eyes of death.

It feels like the worship of the Stranger as part of the godhead is out of place, when considered against the Six, from its description to what it does. Almost like it was snuck in at a later stage

referring to it as a "stranger" suggests an underlying belief that death does not belong, it's foreign.

It's chilling to picture the Stranger as a Faith-sized assassin bug who has infiltrated the human religion like when ant colonies are invaded by Mimics (mmmm, Mira Sorvino). Something extraterrestrial from the Other Side that's come to prey upon this Life Zone on a metaphysical level. But uhhhhh, the Faith seems to trust the Stranger like his skills have been put to work for their "benefit."

He takes the dead, so worshippers don't like him because he doesn't resurrect the fallen, but that may be the proof he's a good guy behaving properly. (Marwyn isn't popular either). But the Stranger gives the world what it needs by safely ferrying the dead to the other side---an especially important function in a world where zombies happen! So I'm pegging him more as a Charon type bloke. You pray to him so that hopefully the family won't see their dead walking around any more. The starry eyes reflect the hope that the dead are transitioning into another ethereal existence hand in hand with the Stranger???? I think death has always been there as a part of nature and can't be banished entirely by kicking Darkness out, but maybe the zombie effects we're seeing are the thing that's been infused into the world by blackstone Visitor substances or Invader magics from the Shadow. (and resurrection also comes from the Sea and no doubt from the other elements as well upon occasion). Perhaps these magical zombie afterlife effects could be extricated from the world.... or kept, expanded upon and refined into some kind of immortality method like you say.... it just seems like nobody who tries quite succeeds at this, not when it comes to their standard of living. They get an eternity of ickiness. It's a nice evolutionary hope for the end of days, though, that we might develop into deathless star-eyes types ourselves.

Hey maybe we already are evolving into the starry eyed Stranger Sapiens, and it looks like Bran when it happens. The Stranger is like a middle man between realms, and Bran is like a Medium who can touch the psyche of the Others, or the Winter itself. He's our middleman to usher us into the new age.

The Stranger's wives are the Silent Sisters; another embodiment of patriarchy: the silenced wife

The patriarchy is part of what they're leaving behind by embracing Strangeness. (Okay, i get it. Often they were forced into Silence to keep the secrets of dudes who would have killed them otherwise rather than risk gossip.)

Uniting three khalisars into one is a reference to the sun and the planet with two moons in a triple eclipse alignment....

No it isn't.

Dany is very like Jormungand, the Norse world serpent, ... and yes, the tiger woman.... The sun's mother is a witch.... and set loose the lion of night.

Sometimes it just sounds nuts. But then right after this was a line which sounded right-ish. (about how dark space magic could have created / mothered the Others). So I go back and forth on this whole thing. On the one hand you're reading way too hard, but on the other hand there's lots of stuff that fits which makes it seem like you should continue, but on the third hand (let's use Jaime's severed one) the "relationships" you're seeing between all these references are in many cases just cool stuff George likes to throw into the narrative such as glowing eyes of death and then he waited a few hundred pages until he thought it was safe to use that fun detail again (unrelated to the first appearance of it).... and then people with newfangled word-search readers come along and find this stuff and wonder how all the occurances of that phrase fit together. Because surely they must. This is the trap you're running into, because those details were meant to build a sense of mystery.... and not one that's meant to be solved. (The mystery takes a shape that looks like something, and it leads you in to a net of fascination, but the books won't feature a printed-upside-down answer key to this mystery I'm afraid). But who knows, maybe it's possible you could get a sit-down with him to ask in person after these theories eventually impress all his relatives.

it sounds like bloodstone emperor worshipping space itself instead of the wanderers. The Stranger.

there is more dark matter. maybe he sold out and inverted the rituals to tap into the dark matter instead of our native star stuff to become a mega-powered comic book villain.

"Shayala" led me to the Hindiname "Shyla," which is means "daughter of the mountain" and is synonymous with the Hindi goddess Parvati, who in turn is an aspect of Kali, the hindu mother / death goddess.

Shyla Stylez once did battle with Danny Mountain, which leads me to Daenerys, and to the Mirri Maz Durr curse which told Daenerys that she would need to climb every mountain, or was that a line from The Sound of Music?

[LordImp]

Indeed they do. If we only knew something about Jogos Nhai death rites... could the burning dead bodies thing have originated with the GEotD? I tend to associate the need to burn bodies with the wights, obviously, in the case of the Wildlings, but the Valyrians and Dothraki (who do have a few similarities, as I mentioned) shouldn't be running into wights. This opens up the idea that it is a GEotD practice. But without more to go on...

Could be that the burning rituals start under BSE reign , maybe he created his own wights or used them in his dark experiments. And people started to burn the dead so that they wasnt used in dark magic. Just an idea.

[LmL]

Yes, one interesting idea which I am starting to give more credence to is the idea that ice and fire magic may be very similar to each other, just one hot and one cold. What I'm saying is whatever monsters lurk beyond the bleeding sea and mountains of the Morne may be fire version of wights or Others. It's certainly possible that the ritual burnings started there for similar reasons that wildlings burn their dead.

It could even be a bit more abstract - their God emperors need to ascend to the stars, and the Dothraki view the burning as setting the spirit free to ride to the fiery horde in the sky. Perhaps they viewed fire in the way Dany & Melisandre do - cleansing, transforming. Purifiying. It makes sense as a death ritual to set the soul free, given the other GEotD & Dothraki beliefs that we know of.

[LordImp]

Yes, one interesting idea which I am starting to give more credence to is the idea that ice and fire magic may be very similar to each other, just one hot and one cold. What I'm saying is whatever monsters lurk beyond the bleeding sea and mountains of the Morne may be fire version of wights or Others. It's certainly possible that the ritual burnings started there for similar reasons that wildlings burn their dead.

It could even be a bit more abstract - their God emperors need to ascend to the stars, and the Dothraki view the burning as setting the spirit free to ride to the fiery horde in the sky. Perhaps they viewed fire in the way Dany & Melisandre do - cleansing, transforming. Purifiying. It makes sense as a death ritual to set the soul free, given the other GEotD & Dothraki beliefs that we know of.

Ice and fire are very similar yes. And i just love every talk about fire version of the Others. But your other theory makes sense too.

[Jono of Oldtown]

I love these theories. The Dothraki call The Bones, the White Mountains (Krazaaj Zasqa), but i was never sure if that was for the shade of stone or if they were alluding to the bones. It may be the animal bones are only on the southern part next to the other disasters such as the great sand sea and the red waste. I dont think we know either way.

Also I asume the Silver Sea (and the Womb of the World) was a fresh water lake otherwise the Dothraki Sea would be a salt flat and not a lush grassland. Not sure that is important actually...

Thanks for posting these, cant wait till the next one.

[LmL]

TY Jono :cheers:

Yes you are right, the Silver Sea would have to be fresh water. Now that you point it out, this would have implications for the idea that the Fisher Queens were some sort of mermaids or aquatic humans. They'd hve to be totally different than ocean merlings, selkies, etc.

[LmL]

J Stargaryen and I have been breaking down a chapter, the one where Ned is confronted by Jaime in the streets of KL. I was picking up on some astronomy clues here, but J STargar really nailed it, catching 2 lion-spiltting references that I had missed. Even my starry-eyed comet vision, I still cannot even come close to catching all the astronomy clues in ASOIAF. The sun splitting the comet is one part of my theory which could use more textual support - I am very convinced that the sun did split the comet, but the evidence I have gathered is admittedly not as strong as other parts of the theory, so any lion-splitting or lion-twins associations are like gold to me. Thanks a million good buddy :cheers:

Leading up to these lion-spillting quotes, there are several clues that we are getting a Long Night metaphor:

A warm rain was pelting down from a starless black sky as they walked to the stables. (LN)
[...]
The streets of King’s Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned’s head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face. (we have rain equated with blood. This is the "black and bloody tide" which is connected to moon drownings throughout the text)
[...]
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. (Nissa Nissa's heart reference)
[...]
Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. Starks and Others, Starks and others... so often connected.
[...]
Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.” A sun reference, and now Jamie appears
[...]
The rain was falling harder now, stinging the eyes and drumming against the ground. Rivers of black water (dark tide again, and remember ned equated the rain with blood, so this could be seen as rivers of black blood) were running down the hill when Jory called out, “My lord,” his voice hoarse with alarm. And in an instant, the street was full of soldiers.

Ned glimpsed ringmail over leather, gauntlets and greaves, steel helms with golden lions on the crests.

Before this scene, we got our first association (in this chapter) between Lions and twins or splitting:

“I’ve also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin’s tourney.”

Jaime's arrival:

The mud muffled the hooves of the blood bay stallion. The line parted before him. On a golden breastplate, the lion of Lannister roared its defiance. “Now, if truth be told, I’m not sure what he is.”

Then, just for kicks, and to see if we are paying attention I suppose, George throws us an inversion:

Ned galloped to him, bringing his longsword down on Tregar’s helm. The jolt of impact made him grit his teeth. Tregar stumbled to his knees, his lion crest sheared in half, blood running down his face. Heward was hacking at the hands that had seized his bridle when a spear caught him in the belly. Suddenly Jory was back among them, a red rain flying from his sword.

There's another clue before this as well, it's a moon drowning clue. The moon rocks drown in the ocean, which is why the blood / black tide comes when the moon drowns. And so, Petyr says this:

“Chataya runs a choice establishment,” Littlefinger said as they rode. “I’ve half a mind to buy it. Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I’ve found. Whores seldom sink...”

What's this about drowning whores? Why is he calling the moon a whore?

Consider the floating pleasure barges of the courtesans of Bravos, and the names of the courtesans:

The Black Swan

The Black Pearl
The Veiled Lady
The Merling Queen
The Moonshadow
The Daughter of the Dusk
The Nightingale
The Poetess

With the exception of "poetess," all of those would seem to have moon-drowning connotations. (hat-tip, Evolett). The other place we see floating palaces for highly esteemed ladies is the floating palace of the Fisher Queens of the Silver Sea. As we have seen, the silver sea itself is a metaphor for the moon - one big silver thing breaking into three things (one of which is the womb of the world, another moon / fertility symbol). A "fisher queen" is a name for a star which is useful in ocean navigation, like Polaris or Spica or Rigel or Sirius. A queen that live on a floating palace certainly sounds like a mermaid, just as the courtesans on the floating barges have mermaid type names. The entire mermaid concept is that of the feminine moon drowning in the ocean. I could pull many, many quotes to support this - I will, when I work my way to this essay - but since the idea is touched on here, I mention it, simply to show how I see these metaphors as working. We don't get a lion-splitting in a vacuum. George takes great lengths to give us lots of "flags" to let us know what we are talking about.

​That's why I have gone to breaking down long passages of text instead of pulling out single quotes. Jaime splitting the line in half could be totally meaningless, if not surrounded by LN imagery and two other lion-splitting images, the moon drowning images, the black and bloody tide... it's all there, but you have to analyze the whole chapter or a large part of it.

A couple of other tidbits: Ned is fighting phantoms in red cloaks, which fits with some hypothesis I have. Ned is often either fighting with phantoms or fighting against them. Aslso, Jory's sword creates a "red rain," shoutout to the Valyrian steel sword Red Rain.