Mad Max contd: further along the Fury Road [spoilers]

[DanteGabriel]

Sure, Rictus has stature just by the fact that he's Joe's son. What I don't think he has much of is responsibility. I don't think Joe is stupid enough to have a feeb as his second, that's all.

In the land of the feebs, the muscular feeb makes a fine warlord. Is Rictus notably dumber than anyone else in Joe's army?

What was the inscription the wives left behind? "Our children will not be warlords" or something. Seems pretty clear that Joe's children are destined to be warlords, which implies a lot more than just privileged muscle.

[Kalbear]

So yeah, Furiosa rescues the wives because they're captive against their will and she has had contact with them through their positions in Joe's society. She does it because she recognizes their plight (and their unborn children's), having been captured herself as a child. This by itself makes perfect sense, as opposed to rescuing warboys or blooodbags, so why would there need to be more reasons?

That doesn't explain why Furiosa needs redemption.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

In the land of the feebs, the muscular feeb makes a fine warlord. Is Rictus notably dumber than anyone else in Joe's army?

What was the inscription the wives left behind? "Our children will not be warlords" or something. Seems pretty clear that Joe's children are destined to be warlords, which implies a lot more than just privileged muscle.

Yeah, but that's why Joe is so obsessive about wanting a proper heir. He doesn't have one. And yes, I believe Rictus is probably notably dumber than any number of Joe's cohorts. He's not just dumb, he's mentally challenged, methinks. I think he is more akin to the communitys champion as opposed to being a leader of any note. I think most of his stature is derived simply by being Joe's progeny.

ETA: Being an absolute physical monster doesn't hurt either, obviously.

[denstorebog]

That doesn't explain why Furiosa needs redemption.

Are you talking about redemption being a stated goal in the movie or redemption being something we, the audience, feel that Furiosa is striving for? In any case, there are plenty of things she'd have done to become an Imperator that would require redemption. I'm talking about whether rescuing the wives specifically, who would make the most obvious targets for rescue, has any particular meaning, and I don't see why it would.

[Kalbear]

Are you talking about redemption being a stated goal in the movie

Yeah, that's what I was talking about.

I guess for me this feels like her way of buying the right back into her matriarchical tribe. It isn't sufficient to just show back up; she needs to redeem herself by doing something inherently freeing for women. And that also implies a certain amount of things against women that she needs to redeem herself for. It isn't necessary, and it might not be true, but it fits a lot of the themes - and especially fits the world where she is literally the only woman in a position of any power in Joe's world.

[DanteGabriel]

Are you talking about redemption being a stated goal in the movie or redemption being something we, the audience, feel that Furiosa is striving for? In any case, there are plenty of things she'd have done to become an Imperator that would require redemption. I'm talking about whether rescuing the wives specifically, who would make the most obvious targets for rescue, has any particular meaning, and I don't see why it would.

Pretty sure Furiosa stated her goal was "redemption" in the movie and, like I said, my understanding of the context of her comment was "redemption for the shitty things I've done to women." I thought this was so strongly implied in the film-making (did Miller hire Eve Ensler just for shits and giggles?) that it feels you have to try to not see that implication.

Yeah, but that's why Joe is so obsessive about wanting a proper heir. He doesn't have one. And yes, I believe Rictus is probably notably dumber than any number of Joe's cohorts. He's not just dumb, he's mentally challenged, methinks. I think he is more akin to the communitys champion as opposed to being a leader of any note. I think most of his stature is derived simply by being Joe's progeny.

ETA: Being an absolute physical monster doesn't hurt either, obviously.

I can agree that Joe probably doesn't think Rictus is a proper heir, but that doesn't explain the causality implied by "Our children will not be warlords." Seems to indicate a pretty clear, uh, expected career path for Joe's kids. I also don't think "Joe's heir" and "warlord" are one-to-one. As in, I think there can be multiple warlords, and possibly none of them could be Joe's heir, but they would still enjoy power and authority.

[denstorebog]

Pretty sure Furiosa stated her goal was "redemption" in the movie and, like I said, my understanding of the context of her comment was "redemption for the shitty things I've done to women." I thought this was so strongly implied in the film-making (did Miller hire Eve Ensler just for shits and giggles?) that it feels you have to try to not see that implication.

Well that doesn't make sense, since I didn't try not to see that implication. Ensler was hired because this is a movie about five women trying to escape a patriarchal society.

We can argue all we want about this, and the Furiosa film will shed further light, but there's no doubt that Furiosa's need for redemption makes perfect sense without her past crimes being gender-specific, and that her decision to rescue the wives makes perfect sense without being a gender-specific act. In any case, either scenario would work for me.

[DanteGabriel]

Well that doesn't make sense, since I didn't try not to see that implication. Ensler was hired because this is a movie about five women trying to escape a patriarchal society.

We can argue all we want about this, and the Furiosa film will shed further light, but there's no doubt that Furiosa's need for redemption makes perfect sense without her past crimes being gender-specific, and that her decision to rescue the wives makes perfect sense without being a gender-specific act. In any case, either scenario would work for me.

I think if you separate Furiosa's need for redemption being totally independent of crimes against women would make it a strangely empty writing choice for a movie that has displayed a good deal of context-building in all other aspects. Miller and the writers put all the clues there to link Furiosa's past to her chosen act of redemption.

I get that you're just arguing that that doesn't have to be it, but I am arguing that the evidence of such a thematic link does not square with the care and attention to detail and character-building they showed with the rest of the movie. I suppose it's how I'd feel, as an ardent R+L=J believer, if Martin ended up doing nothing with all of the clues he'd laid throughout the books.

[Dr. Pepper]

Well that doesn't make sense, since I didn't try not to see that implication. Ensler was hired because this is a movie about five women trying to escape a patriarchal society.

We can argue all we want about this, and the Furiosa film will shed further light, but there's no doubt that Furiosa's need for redemption makes perfect sense without her past crimes being gender-specific, and that her decision to rescue the wives makes perfect sense without being a gender-specific act. In any case, either scenario would work for me.

I agree, yeah, generically speaking, that Furiosa has done horrible things in service to Joe is enough to make her desire for redemption make sense. We know she hasn't been a good girl..

But one of the great things about the film is that it makes you work for the answers. I was wondering if anyone else suspected that Joe has, either currently or in the past, required his child soldiers to do something truly heinous, like murder a parent. I had immediately assumed Furiosa had been made to kill her mom in order to survive. Sure, her mom could have been killed for any reason, but what Furiosa became might have been quite different if that were the case. Something made her go forth on the path to becoming an imperator rather than becoming any other sort of slave at the Citadel, perhaps one with a short shelf life.

[DanteGabriel]

I agree, yeah, generically speaking, that Furiosa has done horrible things in service to Joe is enough to make her desire for redemption make sense. We know she hasn't been a good girl..

But one of the great things about the film is that it makes you work for the answers. I was wondering if anyone else suspected that Joe has, either currently or in the past, required his child soldiers to do something truly heinous, like murder a parent. I had immediately assumed Furiosa had been made to kill her mom in order to survive. Sure, her mom could have been killed for any reason, but what Furiosa became might have been quite different if that were the case. Something made her go forth on the path to becoming an imperator rather than becoming any other sort of slave at the Citadel, perhaps one with a short shelf life.

Ooooh. I like that. Didn't Furiosa say something like her mom was killed on the third or fourth (something early on) day?

[Fez]

I never got the sense that Furiosa specifically wanted redemption for gender-related crimes at all. She wanted redemption for the crimes she committed while in Joe's service, but there was never indication what exactly those crimes were. Yeah, its almost certain some of them were gender-related, but I never saw an indication that she felt worse about those than the other crimes.

[Relic]

We can argue all we want about this, and the Furiosa film will shed further light, but there's no doubt that Furiosa's need for redemption makes perfect sense without her past crimes being gender-specific, and that her decision to rescue the wives makes perfect sense without being a gender-specific act. In any case, either scenario would work for me.

This. My take on it is that she is looking for redemption solely for being part of Joe's regime, his fascist dominion over the wretched of the earth. This is why i can't bring myself to find as much sympathy towards the Warboys as some other people in these threads. They committed atrocities, almost certainly, and if not they were directly responsible for keeping up the status quo that was Joe's draconian reign.

[MerenthaClone]

Well that doesn't make sense, since I didn't try not to see that implication. Ensler was hired because this is a movie about five women trying to escape a patriarchal society.

Ensler's actual job is working with the sex trade in the Congo, and she was hired on in that capacity, iirc.

[SerBert]

Interesting... A Mad Max movie thread with no mention of Max, the titular character.

I really enjoyed the movie.

[Relic]

im thinking about seeing it a third time. yikes.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Given her physical attractiveness, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Furiosa was a breeder at one point, or at the very least a victim of rape. She stated that she had been abducted from her home (The Green Place) when she was very young. I have to imagine that she was kidnapped with that purpose in mind, at least initially.

[Kalbear]

If you buy that joe picked breeders for their lack of defects furiosa might've been picked up and then deemed not worthy.

[Dr. Pepper]

im thinking about seeing it a third time. yikes.

Me too. One of my goals for the third viewing is to confirm that the fat mayor of GasTown has nipple piercings that he plays with given the easy access he has to his nipples from a nipple cutout suit. It was like something I saw out of the corner of my eye the first time, the second time I had a 'wait, wut' moment, this third time I want to fully enjoy it. I have never ever watched a movie twice while still in theaters (not even illegally/unethically). Hard to believe I'm itching to see this one a third time.

On a different note, are there any sound experts or enthusiasts here? I don't know that I've ever consciously considered sound when watching something before, unless it was some sort of musical where I wanted to singalong. Both times I've watched this I've felt mesmerized by the sound. I have no idea how to describe it other than that so many sound effects felt like they were punching or pushing through me. And I really loved the feeling.

I've already decided that the sound stuff for this film is amazing because it was amazing for me and that's what matters. But I'm pretty ignorant about this stuff in general. So for those experts or enthusiasts, was this good sound editing? How does it rate?

[Veltigar]

the fat mayor of GasTown

On the subject of him and the bulletfarmer, I read somewhere they were Immortan Joe's brothers. Was that implied in the movie because I think I missed that connection?

If you buy that joe picked breeders for their lack of defects furiosa might've been picked up and then deemed not worthy.

I wonder why she wasn't deemed worthy. Was she infertile or was it the arm that disqualified her? Related to that, how did she lose her arm exactly. I saw someone brought up that she might have lost the arm because of a genetic deffect, but isn't it more likely that it was lobbed of at some point? I mean, that's what I assumed. Especially when I heard about the plan for a prequel, seems like a no-brainer to adress the lost limb there.

[The Mance]

This. My take on it is that she is looking for redemption solely for being part of Joe's regime, his fascist dominion over the wretched of the earth.

Yeah, think being a part of Joe's regime is more than enough bad mojo for any one person, regardless of gender, to want to atone for.

And, really, we don't actually know enough about Furiosa's day-to-day functions to know what sort of gender specific crimes she might even have had a chance to participate in personally. Some have presumed that she's been involved with the abduction of women, but that seems more like something that would happen on raiding excursions by the sort of roving war band that captured Max. Furiosa seems tied to the War Rig which, from what we've seen, is primarily an armored cargo hauler running dangerous but familiar routes.

So, maybe in the process of working her way up the ranks to Imperator she spent some time on raiding parties or whatever and had a hand in kidnappings or killing. Though I think its more likely she started on the war rig crew as a scout or mech, and rose from there. But I don't think its unreasonable that her guilt goes much beyond just being an integral part of the infrastructure in a society that abducts and enslaves women among a host of other atrocities.

i do like Kal's point, though, about her ticket back into the matriarchal fold being a gender specific atonement. I think, whatever her particular crimes she feels she needs to redeem are, it makes sense that she would identify with, and want to help other young, kidnapped women as her parting shot at the society that kidnapped her as a young woman.