Heresy 169

[Black Crow]

Agreed--that could work well--and fit with the psychological aspects of the novel. Could take place in part in the godswood--maintaining the "climactic battle in Winterfell" aspect of the blurb. Could even bring Sansa in as a player vs. just Jon as warrior. Sansa as mother figure. . . . but Jon could work, too.

But I am prejudiced against the "magical mixed-blood messiah" idea that Jon is supposed to be--so that could be skewing my judgment. And I am sleep-deprived. Still, I prefer this sort of angle--human, tied to psychology and emotion--vs. a fiery wolf-dragon magical transformation to save the world.

Whilst broadly agreeing, I'd see it exactly per the synopsis. This isn't about the return of the King, whether its King Jon Targaryen, Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised, the Last Hero or any or all of them rolled into one. Rather, and perhaps a little surprisingly [to myself at least], I'm inclined to interpret the synopsis in terms of the Seven. The battle will be won not by a hero but by the Starks and others uniting against the threat. It will take Jon and Sansa and Bran and Arya and so on.

[Balerion06]

I have my doubts that very much of the synopsis is still really in-play, I totally agree that the defining moment in the Song will probably be personal rather than due to conventional battle.

Per my theory that Bran will become the key fighter/leader/weapon on behalf of Cold/CotF/Popcicles/Anti-men, I think that the "winning" moment for mankind-- assuming it comes-- will be someone who knows and loves him convincing him that humanity should be allowed to live.

If anyone on here has read Stephen King's It, one way that I imagine the scene(s) as something akin to the climactic fight "in the void." Purely spiritual/emotional/mental rather than physical. A conversation, really.

I'm actually rather partial to the idea of Bran leading the forces of Ice myself.

However, if that happens, I suspect it won't come down to simply a fight between men and Others where humanity's survival is at stake. Given Martin's comments on how he sees Bran as a "hero" of the story and the importance of the first chapter being from Bran's POV, I suspect Bran (or the Starks by extension) would rather use the Others for their own personal reasons, whether it be vengeance or politics.

I don't think the Song will be separate from the Game. Rather, the former will simply be an extension of the latter.

[Black Crow]

There's a popular and entirely understandable belief that this business will eventually be settled by Jon Snow. This might, as I've argued, be because the Starks are central to the story and he's a son of Winterfell, or, as they'll tell you in another place because R+L=Jon Targaryen; a union of Ice and Fire and therefore a balancing of the two as the Prince that was Promised. Yet that's not what the synopsis tells us at all.

Its perfectly true that a synopsis and particularly that part of it cast as a blurb isn't going to reveal such a spoiler but what it does do is tell us that it doesn't involve a hero will arise/return of the King scenario at all, but rather explicitly tells us that it requires a coming together of different elements and a union not of Ice and Fire, but of old rivals and enemies.

And thus I wonder about a re-interpretation of the Seven. I think its fair to say that thus far they haven't had a good press. We meed them as a complacent and corrupt church. We learn that they began as ruthless fanatics and now we see them descending into fanatacism once again. Yet at the same time their gods appear in spiritual terms to be weak and ineffectual by comparison with those of the old Powers whether of Ice or Fire.

Is this intentionally deceptive? The point about the Seven is that they themselves represent a union of otherwise disparate forces. In applying them to the climactic battle of Winterfell there is of course a problem of arithmetic in that GRRM proposed to tell the story through five main protaginists not Seven. Does this matter or has the artithmetic been adjusted? The five were to be three children of Winterfell, Jon, Arya and Bran, Danaerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister. Sansa's importance in the synopsis was ambiguous and I think it fair to add her to the five, both in her own right and ultimately in Jon's bed in substitution for Arya. So that gives us six. Rickon was never mentioned in the synopsis but nevertheless appears right at the beginning. Does that mean he is of no importance or is to be a surprise twist? I'm not convinced though and think that if there is to be a Seven then the last will be Jaime Lannister.

As to roles, that might help identify the seventh, but again I'd be wary of going for the obvious. Jon, I suspect is too obvious as the warrior and I think that as a younger incarnation of Eddard Stark he is more likely the father. Might Jaime then be the warrior - and doomed accordingly?

[Black Crow]

I'm actually rather partial to the idea of Bran leading the forces of Ice myself.

However, if that happens, I suspect it won't come down to simply a fight between men and Others where humanity's survival is at stake. Given Martin's comments on how he sees Bran as a "hero" of the story and the importance of the first chapter being from Bran's POV, I suspect Bran (or the Starks by extension) would rather use the Others for their own personal reasons, whether it be vengeance or politics.

I don't think the Song will be separate from the Game. Rather, the former will simply be an extension of the latter.

I think that Bran's role is initially going to be shaped by his grooming, drawn into the darkness and led to help the children to "survive" without at first realising that their survival may mean Man's destruction.

[Sly Wren]

Whilst broadly agreeing, I'd see it exactly per the synopsis. This isn't about the return of the King, whether its King Jon Targaryen, Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised, the Last Hero or any or all of them rolled into one. Rather, and perhaps a little surprisingly [to myself at least], I'm inclined to interpret the synopsis in terms of the Seven. The battle will be won not by a hero but by the Starks and others uniting against the threat. It will take Jon and Sansa and Bran and Arya and so on.

That's actually close to what I was getting at with the "Sansa" comment--a scenario that opens up roles for multiple players--and I've been trying to figure out where Sansa will fit in all this. Her "mothering" abilities could fit in working to maybe pull Bran out from the "dark side." But agree on no one hero. The realization that Martin seems to be working against the "one true hero" trope is actually what kept me reading the books.

And on the Seven--they are more focused on human morality and, obviously, stages of life compared to the old gods and fire gods which focus on transcending human ability and power. ETA: Where the Faith of the 7 goes wrong, via the High Sparrow and fanaticism, is in focusing on one group being more righteous than the other. NOT on unity and working together. But the basic premise of the 7 seems to go against the individualized "one true hero" mindset of the ice and fire lot so far.

The unity of the Seven is a different, more human (and perhaps even more humane) kind of transcendence. Transcendence via group project--which sounds trite, but given what they are up against, it won't be trite at all.

So, perhaps not working towards a destruction of magics but a human break from them--focusing on the psychology, morality, and life cycle of humans vs. working to subvert and transcend humanity via ice or fire. Not working alone in magics but together as humans. May be very kumbaya. But it would work with Martin's repeated pattern of "relying on magic, blood, and prophesy brings badness." Though if Arya takes over the role of the Stranger, badness is still clearly an option.

[Sly Wren]

And, to your point on the 7: I would assume something like this:

Father: Jon (too much patriarchy via being Mormont's steward and LC to be just warrior--also: if he gets Oathkeeper, takes on a very different significance than Lightbringer--he takes on his father's role in multiple ways)

Mother: Sansa (too much imagery on that to be anything else--and this world's gonna need some decent mothering)

Crone: Bran (Crone lets in crow--dangerousness of wisdom)

Stranger: Arya

Warrior: Probably Jaime--though I could also see Brienne, if she somehow gets through this. Hound may be an outlier, but if he is on that island, thinking he may stay there.

Maid: Dany?

Smith: Tyrion--he makes peace, is very crafty (too cute)

Not perfect--but sets up working together with their different skill sets . . . maybe. Human and cooperative vs. magical and dominant.

[Black Crow]

Yes those were the lines I was working on although I think that Jaime is an infinitely stronger candidate for the warrior than Brienne.

[Prince of Ghost]

I personally would just swap Dany and Sansa in the list as Sansa is still a Maid and to me at least is a parallel to Queen Elizabeth the First of England. To me Dany fits the Mother better given her POV and all the Mysha imagery and caring for "her children" just my two cents on the matter.

[Black Crow]

The Queen Elizabeth parallel is interesting and may be worth exploring further, but I'd agree with the Danaerys/Mother link with the minor caveat that it may be too obvious - or not, if the Seven parallel is itself not so obvious.

[Sly Wren]

I personally would just swap Dany and Sansa in the list as Sansa is still a Maid and to me at least is a parallel to Queen Elizabeth the First of England. To me Dany fits the Mother better given her POV and all the Mysha imagery and caring for "her children" just my two cents on the matter.

Yeah--that works. I was just thinking that given her growing skills, Sansa moves from Maid to Mother. While Dany who sees herself as Mother, struggles to deal with her dragons and may not be able to have children. Sort of moving from Mother to Maid, minus the chastity. Sort of like Elizabeth I. Either way, the parallel won't be perfect.

Either way, the ideal model of the 7 seems potentially more humane than the actual "humans plugged into trees and giving sacrifices" model of the Children. How it might work to undermine the ice-terror . . .

[Varamyra Stark]

Brienne is already known as The Maid

[Black Crow]

Yeah--that works. I was just thinking that given her growing skills, Sansa moves from Maid to Mother. While Dany who sees herself as Mother, struggles to deal with her dragons and may not be able to have children. Sort of moving from Mother to Maid, minus the chastity. Sort of like Elizabeth I. Either way, the parallel won't be perfect.

Either way, the ideal model of the 7 seems potentially more humane than the actual "humans plugged into trees and giving sacrifices" model of the Children. How it might work to undermine the ice-terror . . .

I don't think that drawing parallels with the Seven is necessarily an exact science, or even a conscious one on the part of GRRM but its certainly a lot closer to his original vision as sketched out in the synopsis than a single hero drawing the sword from the stone, and so worth discussing this a lot further

[Prince of Ghost]

I think one of the many reasons why I enjoy the ASOIAF series is that there are many characters that could fit into those Seven roles such as Maid, Mother, Father etc. I prefer that over only having one viable candidate for each role.

[Black Crow]

Or for that matter having it revolve around "Jon Targaryen" the Prince that was Promised :cool4:

[Black Crow]

Brienne is already known as The Maid

True, but I fear at once too obvious and at the same time not sufficiently central to the story

[wolfmaid7]

I'm still figuring out where I stand on who's doing what--but either way, you're right. The greenseers do have vulnerability. And if the Children need them or if they need the Children to work all this ice magic--they are human. And thus more knowable to work with (or against) than the Children.

I'm also assuming the blurb statement about maester and greenseer working together may bolster your point--the greenseers will be playing one way or the other. And this makes me more worried about Bran--he's in the position to eventually defy or undermine the greenseers--as some have mentioned earlier--but I could see the Children taking that very badly. Now, where would the maester come in? Sam? He seems interested in out-of-the-box thinking . . . maybe.

And fully agree on Mel. Matin's already given us hints of child sacrifice via Craster and the Night's King. Thinking he'll make us witness one with Shireen. And will be very hard to read. But will hopefully undo her power and influence. Still, AAAAAARGH!!!! Not happy.

I think Sam will definitely come into play as a Maester and possibly Marwin but on the other end :dunno: There is some crucial information i think missing with regards to the relationship with the Wall and the other realm or possibly some info about the Starks hidden away at the Citadel.With those and what's at the Wall Sam could probably help.He knows about Bran and that's he's North of the Wall looking for a 3eyed Raven and that a dead man was guiding them.He is also close to Jon and wouldn't you know Aemon told him the need of Dany getting a Maester to guide her.Not that he will help her directly or even indirectly but he's dead center somehow of these people.

I have my doubts that very much of the synopsis is still really in-play, I totally agree that the defining moment in the Song will probably be personal rather than due to conventional battle.

Per my theory that Bran will become the key fighter/leader/weapon on behalf of Cold/CotF/Popcicles/Anti-men, I think that the "winning" moment for mankind-- assuming it comes-- will be someone who knows and loves him convincing him that humanity should be allowed to live.

If anyone on here has read Stephen King's It, one way that I imagine the scene(s) as something akin to the climactic fight "in the void." Purely spiritual/emotional/mental rather than physical. A conversation, really.

The synopsis has grown a lot very true but we can see looking at it what's stayed what's not if we can find in in the current story.I think Bran could very well be used as a tool and not in a good way andit would be heart breaking utterly heart breaking if Jon has to kil him.Bran is very vulnerable and he has no boundaries being given to him he is "flying to high" and what will be worse is if he is led to believe he's doing the right thing.It could go either way but i think we are going to get hit in the feels.

I'm actually rather partial to the idea of Bran leading the forces of Ice myself.

However, if that happens, I suspect it won't come down to simply a fight between men and Others where humanity's survival is at stake. Given Martin's comments on how he sees Bran as a "hero" of the story and the importance of the first chapter being from Bran's POV, I suspect Bran (or the Starks by extension) would rather use the Others for their own personal reasons, whether it be vengeance or politics.

I don't think the Song will be separate from the Game. Rather, the former will simply be an extension of the latter.

I like parts of this.We are already seeing the mixing of magic an politics taking place so magic being used to bolster the game or the game being used to manipulate forces of magic is in there.

[Sly Wren]

I don't think that drawing parallels with the Seven is necessarily an exact science, or even a conscious one on the part of GRRM but its certainly a lot closer to his original vision as sketched out in the synopsis than a single hero drawing the sword from the stone, and so worth discussing this a lot further

Given this, I've been mulling over what you said upthread re: the Children trying to re-establish the dominance of Magic per se. They could see it as their chance, now there is a resurgence of magic (going off the assumption that they really do derive their magic from the earth, etc. and therefore have to deal with what appears to be a natural waxing or waning of magic. ) And given that they seem rather diminished, could definitely make them want to go for the nuclear winter option. If so, a new Pact is just out of the question (back to your pilgrim metaphor in Conrad--push comes to shove, they shoot anybody).

Which would mean that either they are running the greenseers (sorry, Wolfmaid) or are working with them. I'm thinking it would have to be the first. Can't see what human greenseers get out of nuclear winter. But the Children get their world back. Need Bran (as has been mentioned many times before)--puts him back in the position of maybe stopping this ONLY if he figures it out--potentially puts the need for his siblings back in play.

Assuming all that could work, I'd really like the idea that a cooperative human model (based on the 7) overcomes the magical, inhuman action of the Children and/or fire gods. Nice irony, too--Bran's magic/Stark/warg blood gets him to the Children. Then gives him what he needs to overcome. The warg blood of the Starks connects them to each other--which sets them all up to (hopefully) work with Bran. You've said before that the wolves are a gift and a trap for the humans--this would make the wolves both a gift and a trap for the Children (who presumably gave them). Which you may also have said before . . .

[Sly Wren]

Brienne is already known as The Maid

I'm not sure she's central enough for the whole "Song," but I definitely think she's replacing Cersei as Jaime's Maid. Putting him in a better position to become a "better" Warrior. Maybe not central, but transformational?

@Prince of Ghost: "I think one of the many reasons why I enjoy the ASOIAF series is that there are many characters that could fit into those Seven roles such as Maid, Mother, Father etc. I prefer that over only having one viable candidate for each role."

Amen! and allows for development, etc.

[Sly Wren]

I think Sam will definitely come into play as a Maester and possibly Marwin but on the other end :dunno: There is some crucial information i think missing with regards to the relationship with the Wall and the other realm or possibly some info about the Starks hidden away at the Citadel.With those and what's at the Wall Sam could probably help.He knows about Bran and that's he's North of the Wall looking for a 3eyed Raven and that a dead man was guiding them.He is also close to Jon and wouldn't you know Aemon told him the need of Dany getting a Maester to guide her.Not that he will help her directly or even indirectly but he's dead center somehow of these people.

Yes--fully agree on his centrality. I was thinking about his tendency to look for middle ground, but you're right--he is also already on middle ground. I didn't even think of Dany. But I also like Sam--could be clouding my judgment--the hopes that a central role might let him survive. . .

[Black Crow]

Yes--fully agree on his centrality. I was thinking about his tendency to look for middle ground, but you're right--he is also already on middle ground. I didn't even think of Dany. But I also like Sam--could be clouding my judgment--the hopes that a central role might let him survive. . .

In terms of filling slots for the parallel Seven I don't see Sam as being one of GRRM's hard core of characters, but as I've just said I think it would be a mistake to cleave too closely to the numbers when what is actually important is that they all come together rather than rally behind a single leader/hero. That said I do think that if we are to see the maester and greenseer working together it will be in terms of individuals rather than institutions, ie; Bran and Sam rather than the Citadel and whatever the equivalent.