R+L=J v.144

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

Well done!

[Greymoon]

On the question of Lyanna's presence at the ToJ, I have previously presented a parallel in Celtic maiden-kidnapping myth that I believe to be an inspiration for the ToJ story, which indicates her presence. However, as there are still doubters, I've done some more digging. My researches have located* what is perhaps another more direct inspiration for GRRM in the obscure corners of Elizabethan theatre. There is a little-known manuscript fragment of an Elizabethan play, apparently performed by the same company that performed Shakespeare's plays, which borrows from Geoffrey of Monmouth's pseudo-history of pre-Roman Britain, a popular source of stories of era. This "Galfridian" Latinisation of the Celtic corpus was also the source of Shakespeare's own King Lear and Cymbeline, and this fragment elaborates on a Galfridian retelling of the same Celtic kidnapping myth previously referenced.

* By located, I mean invented, obviously.

? is that authentic then, or that statement ironic? I'm now confused....

If the first, great, great find!

I'd say GRRM was more than a little influenced by that fragment. Its a clear, direct reference, almost as if he took that fragment as a base and expanded on it - it's an appropriation of that text....

I particularly like this bit:

Gerrard: No more, Dane. I say, no more! I command here, not thou. Weynt doth your words beguile, but no fool I. Your predelictions well I know that would have name'd Reigor king. No more! The king fallen, the prince too. To Dragon's Town the younger prince hath fled, and thence must we when the Dragon's heir is bred. The Queen stands regent, not thou, not Yorke. Unto her shall we submit, no knee shall bend till then.

So Weynt followed Dane's lead and Dane wanted Reigor to be King - Gerrard considered Ares his true king though, and meant to join the younger Prince and the Queen at Dragon's Town, once Reigor's son was born.... Also, Dane did not want to fight the uncle, Edward.

[Black Crow]

Winter Cometh,

or,

The Tragedie of Frost & Fyre

Oh Bravo!

:bowdown:

[Kingmonkey]

Just to clarify, no, that fragment was "more than a little influenced" by GRRM. Confusion not intended, I do things like this sometimes when I get bored. ;^)

Glad you folks liked it, and welcome to the board and the thread, Gomagoti.

[WeaselPie]

On the question of Lyanna's presence at the ToJ, I have previously presented a parallel in Celtic maiden-kidnapping myth that I believe to be an inspiration for the ToJ story, which indicates her presence. However, as there are still doubters, I've done some more digging. My researches have located* what is perhaps another more direct inspiration for GRRM in the obscure corners of Elizabethan theatre. There is a little-known manuscript fragment of an Elizabethan play, apparently performed by the same company that performed Shakespeare's plays, which borrows from Geoffrey of Monmouth's pseudo-history of pre-Roman Britain, a popular source of stories of era. This "Galfridian" Latinisation of the Celtic corpus was also the source of Shakespeare's own King Lear and Cymbeline, and this fragment elaborates on a Galfridian retelling of the same Celtic kidnapping myth previously referenced.

Some scholars have attributed this fragment to Shakespeare himself, though most dismiss this on both stylistic and palaeographical grounds ( I concur). There are some distinctly Shakespearean turns of phrase but it's widely considered that this fragment was written by another far less talented member of the company, simply following the popular success of Shakespeare's style. Those who hold this view point out that the text borrows some phrases directly from earlier Shakespeare plays, while the author's use of iambic pentameter is both distinctly cruder and considerably lazier than those necessarily earlier texts.

The text is highly fragmentary, with just the title page and three pages of the play itself extant. While this seems like a very obscure thing to have been an influence on GRRM, I think you'll agree when you read it that there's little doubt that GRRM must have been hugely influenced by it -- and that it is strong evidence for Lyanna's presence at the Tower of Joy. I've pasted the entire surviving text below.

Winter Cometh,

or,

The Tragedie of Frost & Fyre

as perform'd by the Lord Chamberlain's Men

Dramatis Personae

Sir Gerrard de la Tour-haute; Captain of the King's guards, a stubborn man.

Sir Arthur the Dane; knight of the King's guards, fam'd through the land.

Oswald Weynt; their fool.

Reigor Pendragon; The Prince of Dragon's Town.

Ares Pendragon; The Mad King his father.

Lady Elyna; the Prince's wife, a princess of Cornwall.

Roissart; the king's chamberlain, a frenchman much fear'd yet little respected.

Leona; The maid of Yorke, fair yet fierce.

Edward; Duke of Yorke and lord of Winterfell castle, A Rebel of great honour.

Robert; Baron de Ruthin, and lord of Storm's End castle, A Rebel puissant and headstrong.

Reece; Earl of Bolton, A Rebel of dubious character.

Hywell; A welschman, loyal to the Duke of Yorke, small yet cunning.

Kekex; his frog.

Peysel; A master of the King's council, wise but lickspittle.

Tywent; Duke of Lancaster, wealthy and subtil.

James of Lancaster; his son, a knight of the King's guard.

Duston;

Glover;

Casselle; } Starck's Men, brave and loyal.

Will;

Roswell

Clegon; } Lancaster's Men, villainous and cruel.

Larch;

(Pages missing)

Hywell: I, mean of manner, lack all thy noble grace my lord. I must fein accord. Yet behold upon my saddle, my trusty Kekex. Know thou his secrets, Reece? Know thou the secret of swamp and marsh, of bog and brack? Thou know'st them not, none doth but I. If thy bitter prophecie doth pass, fear not for thy Lord of Yorke. Many a knight hath met his doom in Kekex, and meet it shall be that many more their fate be sealed in his froggy arms anon. Should the sky fall from heaven's vault and the Dane his reason flee, Kekex shall make the end o' him. Fear not whilst I by our Lord of Yorke do ride.

Eddard: Enough. The decision is made, the seven ride. Look to the south, Reece, lest the querilous Cornish from their stony pass come forth. Trust thy lord, and stay thyself.

They leave

Reece: Trust? Thou says't not in words that which mine eyes do tell is spoke upon thy countenance. Trust? I trust thee not my Lord of Yorke, as thou trusteth not myself to tell me why thou must so ride in secrecie. Yet stay I shall, for the nonce. Ware though, Yorke, ware for Bolton forgets not such slieghts. Long these secrets kep't I shall resent. Be it months hence or be it years, one day an accounting of this trust be held. I'll remember long this day, and this day one day thou shalt long regret.

Act 3

Scene 1

Upon a lonely tower; Weynt and Arthur look out over the battlements.

Arthur: Cold winds do here from the King's London blow. I like them not. They do portend ill, methinks. Our Prince is not return'd; fell rumour, come even unto this far and barren place, tells of his harp now heard now upon Elysium's green. The Mad King is slain, the usurper triumfant doth upon the pricklesome throne now sit. What then for us, brave Weynt? What, for the maid below, who's womb the Prince's son doth quicken? What of our oaths and promises? I would that I might draw my sword and fight, yet I fear this gloom that layeth upon the land is one that Dawn itself cannot pierce, nor its fell shadow sundere.

Weynt: Poor Weynt's a-cold, milord. Mark that the winds blow o'the north. My bones ache for the chill o'it, and my nose is wont to fall from my face, methinks.

Arthur: The Others take thy nose, Weynt. Thou putt'st too much up it.

Weynt: Woe! Woe! That I could, and by so doing dismiss the quaking of my heart. The prince hath nam'd this place the Tower of Joie, and yet all joie is fled, and we, poor brothers, stand lonely guard in it's stead. What oaths we swore, that tie us to this dismall place,

Outhope that the fear that grips our shivering hearts may quell,

nor Tyroshi marching powder thus to all our doubts dispell!

Arthur: All is turn'd upon its head; fire is burn'd by ice, north is south, the sky and earth exchang'd! All we knew is gone, Weynt, swept away unheeded as the sea doth scour the land. All is gone, but our honour; solid as a mountain, straight as the rays of the sun, as fix'd and constant as the Ice Dragon's eye. When all about us bends, we must stand tall.

Weynt: Mayhaps there is still a little of the Prince's secret stash of Cornish Gold, unlook'd for amongst his things. I shall search it out.

Arthur: Stay thyself, for yonder! Our commander Sir Gerrard doth hard by approach. In his hand, a scroll; words borne on raven wings, news from afar.

Enter Sir Gerrard

Gerrard: Word is come to us on night's wings, and with it hope is flown.

Long seig'd Storm's End the Usurper's dogs now hold secure.

Craven, the knights of Tyrol stood not when the throne did'st fall.

To Yorke, their knees a-bend, their banners and their honours dipp'd.

Darry, with the Queen and the Prince's brother to Dragon's Town hath fled,

There guarded by a bare score of men and one small lame'd cur.

And to the Dragon's Town soon such fate I fear will call.

Weynt: Dark wings, dark words. My nose aches from the hearing on't. There are things I must now do. I shall see to the Prince's appurtenances.

Exuent Weynt, capering

Gerrard: Dark wings, yet they paler they might be than the eye doth tell. Dark the raven, pitch as the words he bore, and yet he seemeth white as snow. For as white ravens tell of the days of summer pass'd, so told this Raven: Winter is Coming! The Lord of Winter to Cornwall is come, his battle won, this lonely tour his destination.

Arthur: Yorke! Methought I heard a wolf howling in the night, yet better the wolf's howl than the stag's bray. Fierce he is, yet fair. I know him well, this Lord of York. While the Baron of Ruthin broods upon his stolen throne, he harries us not. Edward of Yorke will not bend, but he will list. Hope yet remains.

Gerrard: What, now? Say'st thou that our knees in Yorke's stead should bend? Sword of Morning art though nam'd, yet would'st see the evening of our oaths? Oaths we swore, and thus bound we stand; fight we must, for naught is left to us but those oaths that do our lives define. Hold not your manhood half so cheap for while the blood doth in our breasts still beat. Our honour nor our swords are yet undone.

Arthur: Bend not our knees, but bend we must to the reason o' the day. Below, fair Leona with child grows large; a dragon, aye, but wolf-cub too. Think you the babe his uncle's death would not decry? And would'st the uncle his sister's son deny?

Gerrard: No more, Dane. I say, no more! I command here, not thou. Weynt doth your words beguile, but no fool I. Your predelictions well I know that would have name'd Reigor king. No more! The king fallen, the prince too. To Dragon's Town the younger prince hath fled, and thence must we when the Dragon's heir is bred. The Queen stands regent, not thou, not Yorke. Unto her shall we submit, no knee shall bend till then.

Exuent Gerrard

Arthur: For honour, then. For honour's sake, we die, or Yorke. And yet what good shall either course anoint? I see no good in't. For honour's sake, should we keep the maiden from her brother, the babe his uncle? The kingdom in pain'd wrack doth lie, burn'd and draggl'd from long months of war. What hope, to fight on, but to cause more hurt? Here upon this distant Cornish moore, long miles from the warmth of lover's arms, shall die the one or th'other. Thus is tragedy born, and the prince's babe in tragedy too be born. I like not the

(pages missing)

* By located, I mean invented, obviously.

bravo! this is awesome - I need to know more about Kekex :bowdown:

[The Great Cornholio!]

? is that authentic then, or that statement ironic? I'm now confused....

If the first, great, great find!

I'd say GRRM was more than a little influenced by that fragment. Its a clear, direct reference, almost as if he took that fragment as a base and expanded on it - it's an appropriation of that text....

I particularly like this bit:

Gerrard: No more, Dane. I say, no more! I command here, not thou. Weynt doth your words beguile, but no fool I. Your predelictions well I know that would have name'd Reigor king. No more! The king fallen, the prince too. To Dragon's Town the younger prince hath fled, and thence must we when the Dragon's heir is bred. The Queen stands regent, not thou, not Yorke. Unto her shall we submit, no knee shall bend till then.

So Weynt followed Dane's lead and Dane wanted Reigor to be King - Gerrard considered Ares his true king though, and meant to join the younger Prince and the Queen at Dragon's Town, once Reigor's son was born.... Also, Dane did not want to fight the uncle, Edward.

It was a prank.

[BearQueen87]

Whatever King Monkey wrote that is getting applause vanished....? :( I wanna read

ETA: I see that it was quoted up thread a bit. LOL. Very nice KM

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps because of the reason that Chelsted refused to be Hand? Aerys wanted someone as Hand that would support his wildfire plot. That would take a special kind of person, that is not afraid to burn, too. (BTW, the sentence that contains the appointment can be read that Chelsted was burned, and then Rossart was appointed, all within a few hours or a day. In context it looks like it might be chronological, and now refers to after the Trident, but I am not certain that Yandel would know exactly.)

Wouldn't the terms of office of the Hands be recorded somewhere?

[SFDanny]

Wouldn't the terms of office of the Hands be recorded somewhere?

Yes, the king would issue a decree appointing a new Hand. The court records and the records of the small council should have this information. We don't know just how much access Yandel has to such sources, but there is no reason to think it was done in secret. A secret Hand of the King seems highly unlikely. Even if he was Hand of the King for no more than a fortnight.

[SFDanny]

It was a prank.

It is in a great literary tradition. A prank? d'Artagnan says nay, sir, nay!

[SFDanny]

bravo! this is awesome - I need to know more about Kekex :bowdown:

A nod to Aristophanes, I believe

[Alia of the knife]

An ode to the last topic on the TOJ.

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[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Why was KingMonkey's post deleted? Anyone know?

[Alia of the knife]

Wouldn't the terms of office of the Hands be recorded somewhere?

Where was the information on Stark, or "the hour of the wolf" found? It was short, but seemed to be covered rather well.

[IceFire125]

KINGMONKEY and his researching skills is NIGHT'S KING LEVEL!!

fair Leona with child grows large; a

dragon, aye, but wolf-cub too. ^_^ ^_^

[Greymoon]

Just to clarify, no, that fragment was "more than a little influenced" by GRRM. Confusion not intended, I do things like this sometimes when I get bored. ;^)

Glad you folks liked it, and welcome to the board and the thread, Gomagoti.

oh, okay. Now I feel stupid. But anyway, cool work.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, the king would issue a decree appointing a new Hand. The court records and the records of the small council should have this information. We don't know just how much access Yandel has to such sources, but there is no reason to think it was done in secret. A secret Hand of the King seems highly unlikely. Even if he was Hand of the King for no more than a fortnight.

Agreed

Where was the information on Stark, or "the hour of the wolf" found? It was short, but seemed to be covered rather well.

You mean where we, the readers, learned the info? World Book, chapter on Aegon III.

[Lord Varys]

The problem with this idea of Chested not being immediately succeeded by Rossart is simply that Rossart and the wildfire plan were the very reason why Chelsted was executed - presumably personally by Rossart. Thus the idea that Aerys would stand around and consider candidates for the Hand if the obvious candidate for the job - the man who was implementing his mad wildfire plan - was standing right there makes little sense to me.

Chelsted was also not appointed because he way okay with the wildfire plan - he didn't know about, and possible Aerys himself had no clue about that when he named Chested after Jon Connington's dismissal in the wake of the Battle of the Bells (that is, long before the Trident and prior to Rhaegar's return to the city).

The wildfire plan seems to me like a last solution/revenge kind of thing - something that was already in Aerys' mind prior to Rhaegar marching to the Trident - and I actually like to believe vision Aerys is talking to vision Rossart about both Robert and Rhaegar when he mentions 'the king of ashes', although it is most likely Robert specifically, and the vision dates from after the Trident when Aerys had learned about Rhaegar's death - but was only fully implemented and prepared after Rhaegar had left and the news about the Trident arrived. There wouldn't have been a general shortage of wildfire during Aerys' later years, so all the pyromancers would have done in the final weeks and days before the Sack is beginning to move their 'fruits' to the chosen locations.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Rossart and the other alchemists had no intention of burning themselves. There would have been a plan to prepare everything in a way that would allow them to leave in time.

[Kingmonkey]

Why was KingMonkey's post deleted? Anyone know?

No idea, very odd. Board glitch I presume. Luckily WeaselPie quoted it in full.

A nod to Aristophanes, I believe

Indeed, though for no good reason other than it seemed like a good name for a frog at the time.

[SFDanny]

Indeed, though for no good reason other than it seemed like a good name for a frog at the time.

After hearing the frog chorus in The Frogs, what else could spring to mind? Once you hear it, you will never loose it. Some might put it a little differently, such as "how do you make it stop?" But it's all the same. Ancient ear worms.