R+L=J v.144

[SFDanny]

SFDanny,

the story about the fisherman's daughter comes from the Three Sisters, not the Fingers, but Stannis could still have it there as Lord Borrell confirms that Stannis was in Sisterton during his time as Master of Ships. But the fisherman's daughter story doesn't sound like something that was made up to hide the truth. I rather imagine the fisherman's daughter liked Ned, wished they had had an affair, and the tale grew in the telling after Ned Stark had had a bastard whose mother was effectively unknown.

And if Lord Borrell can bore Stannis with this tale about Jon Snow's origin so could some other Sisterman have told the same story about Jon to Stannis.

I'm also not sure Varys would have had a motive to tell Robert anything about Jon's heritage had he had evidence or hints. After all, this would only have endangered the life of the boy, and we know that Varys is strangely kind to royal bastards (Gendry and Edric Storm). More importantly, he could use this story to his advantage to eventually recruit Ned Stark to Aegon's cause. Varys is trying to sneak up to Ned in AGoT, and I imagine he was quite impressed by Ned's resistance to Robert's plans to murder Viserys and Daenerys. In that regard it is also strange/noteworthy that we never get a chapter of Varys' second visit in the black cells. Ned's last chapter in the series has him undecided what to do - that he is confessing we see later only in Arya's chapter. Perhaps the threat to Sansa's life wasn't enough, perhaps Varys and Ned had another conversation about other things. We don't know that yet.

Thanks, LV, for the correction. In the midst of a long bout with a nasty cold and I should know better than to post so late without checking for errors. Three Sisters it is, and not the Fingers. My point still stands. I think I read the section differently than you, however. I don't put Stannis himself going to the Three Sisters. "As for your King Stannis, when he was Robert's master of ships he sent a fleet into my port without my leave and made me hang a dozen fine friends. Men like you. He went so far as to threaten to hang me if it should happen that some ship went aground because the Night Lamp had gone black. I had to eat his arrogance." (ADwD 131) I read this, especially the first part to mean Stannis had a fleet of royal ships sent into Sweetsister to lay down the law about the Night Lamp. Not that he, himself was there. But you could be right. Stannis could have lead this effort himself. Perhaps Lord Godric tells Stannis the same tale he tells Davos. We don't know that, and Lord Godric certainly doesn't say so, but it is possible. I'll think that over a bit and get back to you.

As to your namesake, I should say the only thing he has ever said in the series that I trust is his hatred of magic. I believe if he knew anything about Jon he could prove or use for his own benefit he would do it is split second. The man has his own agenda that views what is best for him as what is best for the realm. So, Jon, as an obstacle to his plans for Young Griff would be all the incentive he would need to place him in Robert's tender loving care for the short time it would take for the king to find some one to kill a young boy guilty of nothing but being his father's son. His actions towards Daenerys before the birth of her dragons is proof enough of that for me.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I've no doubt Ned's story was investigated. Stannis's remarks about Jon being the son of a Fisherman's daughter, and Cersei's remarks about Jon being born of some dornish peasant Ned rapes or Ashara Dayne all falls too close to some kind of organized search for the truth. The question becomes why Varys couldn't find out enough to risk putting before Robert the question of Ned's faithfulness. The only answer, I think, is Ned has help in covering his tracks and that help almost certainly comes from Starfall. It comes in at least two ways. First, in Wylla claiming to be Jon's mother, and in harboring of Wylla in Starfall for almost two decades. It may also come in the form of Ashara leaving Westeros, and in the story of the Fisherman's daughter that Ser Davos hears in the Fingers.

There is a difference between rumors about who is Jon's mother and investigating what happened to the 3 KG. In fact, the entire point of the "cover-up" by Ned is to distance those two issues so that people do NOT connect Jon to the 3 KG. Of course, someone like Ned comes back from war with a bastard and rumors will spread about how it happened -- especially when he refuses to discuss the identity of the mother.

But the story of the 3 KG is simply another in a long line of lost lives on the battle field. Why would people investigate that information more than other deaths in the aftermath of war -- the so-called "fog of war."

[enoofu]

I doubt people would care that three King Guards were at the Tower of Joy, and just like the Trojan War, the lady is a prize with honor is at stake

Lady Stark also has value even if she isn't preg , since both the Starks and Robert want her back

[SFDanny]

There is a difference between rumors about who is Jon's mother and investigating what happened to the 3 KG. In fact, the entire point of the "cover-up" by Ned is to distance those two issues so that people do NOT connect Jon to the 3 KG. Of course, someone like Ned comes back from war with a bastard and rumors will spread about how it happened -- especially when he refuses to discuss the identity of the mother.

But the story of the 3 KG is simply another in a long line of lost lives on the battle field. Why would people investigate that information more than other deaths in the aftermath of war -- the so-called "fog of war."

While I don't disagree that there isn't a difference between Ned's story about Lyanna and especially about Jon, which is mostly what I was talking about, and the events concerning the deaths of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent, I don't think the whereabouts of those three men would not be of interest to Robert's government. Confirming their deaths would be of interest to any opponents of the old regime.Wouldn't be surprised to find out that spies would have been checking out the ruins of the Tower and the cairns left there. Certainly, Lord Varys, would want to confirm to Robert so much of what his good friend said.

[enoofu]

Doubt Lord Varys would care about the three King Guards, since they aren't much of a threat if they were alive.

Robert wouldn't care, since they aren't his King Guards, and has no reason to doubt Ned.

[Masha]

What you guys think on this questions IF R+L=J is true

1) Will Jon ever find out (and believes it beyond doubt that he is R+L son? By this I mean someone reliable and physical like Howard Reed tells him and not thru out-of-body experience/dreams/visions)

2) Will Dany actually find out if R+L=J and believe it (same caveats as Jon)

3) Will anyone outside of Jon, Dany, Reeds, and magical (Melly, fire priests, Bran and etc) found out that R+L=J and believe it - with proof?

[Alia of the knife]

144!!?

[RumHam]

Since WeaselPie probably won't come back to tell us all he was wrong:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/?p=7060431

Back in May 2008, we (that's Linda and I, and George's editor Anne Groell) received from George's assistant family tree files concerning the Targaryens and Starks, for use in the course of working on the world book (remember, at the time the world book contained a Who's Who, which was the basis for the app). Some of the details in those trees changed once George worked on the World of Ice and Fire (the Stark tree expanded, mainly, and the Targaryen tree got some substantial changes as he sorted out things like the Dance of the Dragons). The program used contains stuff like date of death, location of death, etc.

In the case of Lyanna Stark, she's on that Stark tree, and there her death location is given as the tower of joy.

Again, things are always mutable until directly published in the books (and sometimes even after that point, depending). But in mid-2008, that's what George had in place.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Did I miss anything earth shattering during the last two pages of the last thread? No?

I don't know why Rhaegar would feel inclined to take the Handship. If he really did think he was coming back from the Trident (and Jaime's rememberance points to that...) and if the plan post-Trident victory was dethroning Aerys, then is taking the Handship really necessary?

Perhaps Rhaegar asked to become Hand and was refused.. Or, he simply never asked at all, because of his plans for after the Trident, and figured that it would not be worth it to fight over the Handship so shortly before such an important battle.

Rhaenys,

well, the fact that Aerys actually named the very guy Hand whose plan Chelsted was arguing against strongly suggests that Aerys named Rossart at once after the burning of Chelsted (or rather before that - in the very moment he dismissed Chelsted - Hand Rossart may actually have been the one who personally burned the former Hand Chelsted). The whole wildfire plan wasn't fully prepared yet, and Rossart could easily do it and have complete authority over everybody in the city while he was serving as Hand.

Yandel's description makes it very likely that Chelsted was the one who was burned right in time to cause Dany's conception. The time line fits as well with that as Rossart supposedly only was Hand for a fortnight.

Rhaegar would be totally stupid to not claim the Handship. He could use it to install a Regency due to the king's madness. Nothing suggests that Rhaegar actually wanted to depose or kill his father. If he had wanted to do that he could have done so before Robert was defeated as he was actually in command of the army. Trying to do it later would give Aerys time to prepare for Rhaegar's return - wildfire plan, orders to murder Elia and her children should Rhaegar act against his father, and so on. If Rhaegar wanted to go the legal way to take power away from Aerys being Hand would be a perfect way to do that.

I disagree.

This passage shows clearly that Rossart became Hand after the Trident

BIRDS FLEW AND couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart—a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.

And it mentions Chelsted as having already been burned. So yeah, it does seem that Aerys was without a Hand for a little while... Not so strange, imo. Wouldn't Aerys need to think hard about that decision, of whom to give such power?

We do know that Barristan and Lewyn were out gathering up the dispersed remnants of Connington's army. I would imagine that there many skirmishes between the forces to make things miserable for both sides, since we don't have any other noteworthy battles until the Trident.

Now, Jaime may be misremembering, but we have no evidence of that, so we must treat his memory as being accurate. Darry is present the night of Chelsted's roasting, but dies at the Trident. There is the fact that the bruises, scratches, and bite marks are still visible when Rhaella leaves that limits the time between Chelsted's roasting and the Trident, not just Darry and Rossart's appointment. Sure Aerys may have delayed in appointing Rossart, but it is wartime, and delaying is costly. Aerys is eager to see all of his wildfire caches in place. Chelsted had discovered the wilfire plot and reasoned, pleaded, begged with Aerys to not go through with it, in the end throwing his badge of office on the floor, leading to his roasting. So, the wildfire plot had been going on for considerable time, not spur of the moment, after the Trident.

I recall a mentioning from the books of Hoster burning holdfasts in the Riverlands during the war, it seems to me that that happened between the Bells and the Trident. So there definitly was some fighting going on.

I agree that we have no evidence yet that Jaime misremembers.. But still think that Aerys delayed in naming another Hand.. Even though it was war. Look at Robert, he was without a Hand for a few months after Jon Arryn's death. And I doubt that Aerys decided within a single minute that Merryweather was unworthy as Hand, but Jon Connington was the perfect candidate.. I can see him taking some time to think about that one as well..So then why not between Chelsted and Rossart?

In fact, why pick Rossart, over the higher born on the Small Council (like Lucerys Velaryon)?

[SFDanny]

I'm with you on this one Rhaenys_Targaryen. It is the only sensible way to square the circle.

[SFDanny]

Since WeaselPie probably won't come back to tell us all he was wrong:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/?p=7060431

Thank you RumHam!

[MtnLion]

In fact, why pick Rossart, over the higher born on the Small Council (like Lucerys Velaryon)?

Perhaps because of the reason that Chelsted refused to be Hand? Aerys wanted someone as Hand that would support his wildfire plot. That would take a special kind of person, that is not afraid to burn, too. (BTW, the sentence that contains the appointment can be read that Chelsted was burned, and then Rossart was appointed, all within a few hours or a day. In context it looks like it might be chronological, and now refers to after the Trident, but I am not certain that Yandel would know exactly.)

[BearQueen87]

What you guys think on this questions IF R+L=J is true

1) Will Jon ever find out (and believes it beyond doubt that he is R+L son? By this I mean someone reliable and physical like Howard Reed tells him and not thru out-of-body experience/dreams/visions)

2) Will Dany actually find out if R+L=J and believe it (same caveats as Jon)

3) Will anyone outside of Jon, Dany, Reeds, and magical (Melly, fire priests, Bran and etc) found out that R+L=J and believe it - with proof?

1. Yes Jon will find out--I tend to believe that there will be physical proof for him, but nothing that would probably mean much for anyone else (I like the idea of Lyanna's body being wrapped in a Targ wedding cloak, for instance)

2. Yes Dany will find out. Proof? Nothing that will mean overly much to her or anyone else.

3. Sam. I think Sam will learn either by Jon or he'll put the pieces together himself as he continues to learn about prophecy at the Cidatel.

[Eira Seren]

[snip]

Can you please confirm that GRRM personally confirmed that Ned found Lyanna inside the tower of joy? Or not? As absolute book-level canon?

[snip]

Thanks :)

. . .

Ah, forgot to answer the other question.

Back in May 2008, we (that's Linda and I, and George's editor Anne Groell) received from George's assistant family tree files concerning the Targaryens and Starks, for use in the course of working on the world book (remember, at the time the world book contained a Who's Who, which was the basis for the app). Some of the details in those trees changed once George worked on the World of Ice and Fire (the Stark tree expanded, mainly, and the Targaryen tree got some substantial changes as he sorted out things like the Dance of the Dragons). The program used contains stuff like date of death, location of death, etc.

In the case of Lyanna Stark, she's on that Stark tree, and there her death location is given as the tower of joy.

Again, things are always mutable until directly published in the books (and sometimes even after that point, depending). But in mid-2008, that's what George had in place.

Since WeaselPie probably won't come back to tell us all he was wrong:. . .

Sounds like Ran is addressing what WeaselPie asked him to confirm.

How this makes WeaselPie wrong is beyond me. (Perhaps I will find the answer at the bottom of a glass of Viking Blod).

[SFDanny]

Weasel Pie did nothing wrong. A few days ago he/she was asked to find out some information concerning the app's entry on Lyanna. He did what people asked him/her to do. The response from Ran showed Weasel Pie to be wrong on the facts of the entry and the origins of the information in it. No shame in that. We have all been wrong on such things in the past. At least if you've been bold enough to share your thoughts in the forums we all have. Not as good as the bottom of a glass of Viking Blod, but that's my answer anyways.

[RumHam]

Sounds like Ran is addressing what WeaselPie asked him to confirm.

How this makes WeaselPie wrong is beyond me. (Perhaps I will find the answer at the bottom of a glass of Viking Blod).

I'm not saying he was wrong in the post I linked to. I was saying the post I linked to and Ran's replies prove he was wrong both in the last version of this thread, and in his "Lyanna at the tower of joy is not canon" thread.

[JNR]

The response from Ran showed Weasel Pie to be wrong on the facts of the entry and the origins of the information in it.

As I understand it, Ran provided a 2008 Stark family tree as evidence.

If indeed Weasel is wrong -- because Lyanna's place of death is demonstrated by that document to be canonically the TOJ -- then the rest of the same document is also canonical truth.

This in turn means that Jon is canonically established, by the same family tree, as the bastard son of Ned Stark by an unknown woman. Glad that's settled.

Or, if that conclusion seems problematic to us, we can accept Ran's characterization of the information in the document as "semi-canon" instead. This would imply the Stark family tree reflects not some objective reality, but merely what Westeros collectively believes to be true in a general sense concerning both Lyanna's place of death and Jon's parentage.

[Iron Stag]

We do know that Barristan and Lewyn were out gathering up the dispersed remnants of Connington's army. I would imagine that there many skirmishes between the forces to make things miserable for both sides, since we don't have any other noteworthy battles until the Trident.

Barristan and Darry you mean? They're the ones who were sent to get Connington's army

What you guys think on this questions IF R+L=J is true

1) Will Jon ever find out (and believes it beyond doubt that he is R+L son? By this I mean someone reliable and physical like Howard Reed tells him and not thru out-of-body experience/dreams/visions)

2) Will Dany actually find out if R+L=J and believe it (same caveats as Jon)

3) Will anyone outside of Jon, Dany, Reeds, and magical (Melly, fire priests, Bran and etc) found out that R+L=J and believe it - with proof?

1. Martin has said in an SSM (link anyone?) that Jon will find out who his parents are. So yes he will find out that he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. It seems likely that Howland will be the one to tell him seeing as he's one of the last person alive who was there when Lyanna died. Bran's a good option though to tell him about their marriage as well seeing as he can see through weirwoods.

2. Dany will probably find out, but I doubt she'll ever believe it. As far as she's concerned, she's the only Targaryen.

3. Some people will find out, but I doubt anyone will believe it. For everybody it will probably just seem too convenient that this guy who looks nothing like Rhaegar is Rhaegar's son. They'll think it's a ploy I believe.

I'm not saying he was wrong in the post I linked to. I was saying the post I linked to and Ran's replies prove he was wrong both in the last version of this thread, and in his "Lyanna at the tower of joy is not canon" thread.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but where was he proven wrong? Ran said that the app's entry is not canon, only semi-canon. WeaselPie was asking for confirmation that the app's entry was canon, and Ran told him that it was not. So WeaselPie was right in that it's not canon information.

Also, Ran said that back in 2008 there was a Stark family tree that he'd received that said that Lyanna had died at the tower of joy. Ran says though that that family tree was what was going to be used in the World Book, but that George made changes to it. Looking at my copy of the World Book's Stark family tree, there is no death location for any Stark, so one of the changes that George made was to throw out all the information regarding people's deaths. So the Lyanna died at the tower of joy entry from 2008 was therefore discarded and is out of date.

So WeaselPie doesn't seem to have been wrong on anything. The app's entry is not canon, and the family tree that Ran got in 2008 is proven to be outdated as we have the published version of it that does not have that information.

[Ran]

The family tree in the world book was designed by becker&mayer. It is not George's handiwork. Becker&Mayer had the brief of providing a consistent, clear depiction of the family tree, and it was felt by all parties involved that it'd be easiest to leave out things like birth dates, death dates, causes of death, locations of birth, locations of death (all of these are fields in his 2008 tree, which uses the MyHeritage program) in part because those would just be more details to make sure we had correct... and in part because not all entries necessarily had all of these fields filled, while others did. The most consistent thing would be to boil it down to the basics of names, marriages, offspring (and even there, we opted to elide some of them because they led to cadet branches).

WeaselPie's query, as I recall, is a bit confused because they seem to feel that if the details came from GRRM, it's canon. Whereas my view is that even if the detail came from GRRM, it is only semi-canon until it is published in a publication that GRRM had a direct hand in (ASoIaF, D&E, TWoIaF, Fire and Blood eventually maybe). The app, as I've already said, contains semi-canon information -- we don't feel George is bound by the answers he gave to all those queries we sent him (we sent him a LOT) if he comes up with a better idea in the course of writing.

[Eira Seren]

Weasel Pie did nothing wrong. A few days ago he/she was asked to find out some information concerning the app's entry on Lyanna. He did what people asked him/her to do. The response from Ran showed Weasel Pie to be wrong on the facts of the entry and the origins of the information in it. No shame in that. We have all been wrong on such things in the past. At least if you've been bold enough to share your thoughts in the forums we all have. Not as good as the bottom of a glass of Viking Blod, but that's my answer anyways.

Yeah, I know, I've been skimming it here and there, but thanks for filling me in.

I didn't find what I was looking for, but that mead was sure delightful.

I'm not saying he was wrong in the post I linked to. I was saying the post I linked to and Ran's replies prove he was wrong both in the last version of this thread, and in his "Lyanna at the tower of joy is not canon" thread.

Hmm. This is something the mead was supposed to clarify.

As I understand it, Ran provided a 2008 Stark family tree as evidence.

If indeed Weasel is wrong -- because Lyanna's place of death is demonstrated by that document to be canonically the TOJ -- then the rest of the same document is also canonical truth.

This in turn means that Jon is canonically established, by the same family tree, as the bastard son of Ned Stark by an unknown woman. Glad that's settled.

Or, if that conclusion seems problematic to us, we can accept Ran's characterization of the information in the document as "semi-canon" instead. This would imply the Stark family tree reflects not some objective reality, but merely what Westeros collectively believes to be true in a general sense concerning both Lyanna's place of death and Jon's parentage.

Ah. So you're saying if the document establishes the family tree (even though it's older than the World Book, then it also establishes the other stuff it says on the family tree, including Ned+Wylla=Jon? Yeah, it would be pretty hard to pick and choose parts since the whole map came from GRRM.

Or maybe the map is based more on what other characters/stories in ASOIAF have to tell about the official version of the Stark family history. Which actually makes a lot of sense. Most official versions of the story tend to gloss over the details not interested in being heard.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but where was he proven wrong? Ran said that the app's entry is not canon, only semi-canon. WeaselPie was asking for confirmation that the app's entry was canon, and Ran told him that it was not. So WeaselPie was right in that it's not canon information.

Also, Ran said that back in 2008 there was a Stark family tree that he'd received that said that Lyanna had died at the tower of joy. Ran says though that that family tree was what was going to be used in the World Book, but that George made changes to it. Looking at my copy of the World Book's Stark family tree, there is no death location for any Stark, so one of the changes that George made was to throw out all the information regarding people's deaths. So the Lyanna died at the tower of joy entry from 2008 was therefore discarded and is out of date.

So WeaselPie doesn't seem to have been wrong on anything. The app's entry is not canon, and the family tree that Ran got in 2008 is proven to be outdated as we have the published version of it that does not have that information.

So in other words, even though the fevered dream of Ned is in the text, it's ambiguous. What's really establishing the canon of Lyanna at the toj is a map that we don't even get to see in the World Book. And is over 7 years old. And the app, which is semi-canon (based on the ambiguous map in question)?