R+L=J v.144

[Eira Seren]

The family tree in the world book was designed by becker&mayer. It is not George's handiwork. Becker&Mayer had the brief of providing a consistent, clear depiction of the family tree, and it was felt by all parties involved that it'd be easiest to leave out things like birth dates, death dates, causes of death, locations of birth, locations of death (all of these are fields in his 2008 tree, which uses the MyHeritage program) in part because those would just be more details to make sure we had correct... and in part because not all entries necessarily had all of these fields filled, while others did. The most consistent thing would be to boil it down to the basics of names, marriages, offspring (and even there, we opted to elide some of them because they led to cadet branches).

WeaselPie's query, as I recall, is a bit confused because they seem to feel that if the details came from GRRM, it's canon. Whereas my view is that even if the detail came from GRRM, it is only semi-canon until it is published in a publication that GRRM had a direct hand in (ASoIaF, D&E, TWoIaF, Fire and Blood eventually maybe). The app, as I've already said, contains semi-canon information -- we don't feel George is bound by the answers he gave to all those queries we sent him (we sent him a LOT) if he comes up with a better idea in the course of writing.

So in the fumes at the bottom of this glass, what I see you saying is that any detail that is published in ASOIAF, D&E, TWOIAF, an maybe Fire and Blood is canon. Anything else is semi-canon. Got it.

I know so little about publishing and think it's interesting that something like the family tree was so difficult to fact check that it was better (certainly see why!) for consistency to leave stuff out. Makes me wonder how that process worked for all of TWOIAF, I I know GRRM provided notes and everything for a lot of parts, but that's such a huge project, it must have taken ages!!

[Moondancer]

RumHam, thanks for that :thumbsup: That settles the issue of Lyanna's whereabouts, for me at least.

[WeaselPie]

Since WeaselPie probably won't come back to tell us all he was wrong:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/?p=7060431

Did you miss me or something? Ran only just explained it fully around three hours ago.

The App is semi-canon, not canon, as confirmed by Ran. So I wasn't "wrong" if you wanna be technical about it, but then again all those people claiming it was canon were wrong not wrong too. It was a clarification, not a competition.

As long as wiki editors make it clear in their entries that the App is semi-canon from now on, that's fine. We can just continue on faith with this new information.

You're welcome.

[BearQueen87]

The app being only considered semi-canon (which I think most of us already acknowledged given that we can't know specifically--without Ran--which questions GRRM personally answered) doesn't change that the "Lyanna at the TOJ" information from said app is in line with the evidence--however shaky people want to believe it is--found in A Game of Thrones, particularly in Ned Stark's fever dream where he directly associates Lyanna, the 3KG, and the TOJ together.

Thanks to Ran for answering certain questions.

[Ran]

Even questions GRRM personally answered are still semi-canon, at least for purposes of the wiki. It's not canon until it's found between the covers of a book, is George's position. :)

[Lord Varys]

Well, considering that the App gives actually only sparse information on stuff that isn't found between two book covers the semi-canon window should be relatively narrow - on the other hand, one should reasonably only cite the App when there is no other primary source, so the whole canon issue should only be raised when there is no other source but the App on something - which is was raised the issue in the first place.

However, there is a rather good chance that all the stuff related to important plot points is eventually going to be resolved/addressed in forthcoming books - like the place of Lyanna's death and the whole tower episode. Fringe stuff, like Viserys III's coronation on Dragonstone, may never be mentioned in the books - or not, after all, it could be play some role in any Dany vs. Aegon 'Who has the better claim' pissing contest.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah, I know, I've been skimming it here and there, but thanks for filling me in.

I didn't find what I was looking for, but that mead was sure delightful.

Hmm. This is something the mead was supposed to clarify.

Ah. So you're saying if the document establishes the family tree (even though it's older than the World Book, then it also establishes the other stuff it says on the family tree, including Ned+Wylla=Jon? Yeah, it would be pretty hard to pick and choose parts since the whole map came from GRRM.

Or maybe the map is based more on what other characters/stories in ASOIAF have to tell about the official version of the Stark family history. Which actually makes a lot of sense. Most official versions of the story tend to gloss over the details not interested in being heard.

So in other words, even though the fevered dream of Ned is in the text, it's ambiguous. What's really establishing the canon of Lyanna at the toj is a map that we don't even get to see in the World Book. And is over 7 years old. And the app, which is semi-canon (based on the ambiguous map in question)?

Hi Eira!!!! :)

[Sly Wren]

Did you miss me or something? Ran only just explained it fully around three hours ago.

The App is semi-canon, not canon, as confirmed by Ran. So I wasn't "wrong" if you wanna be technical about it, but then again all those people claiming it was canon were wrong not wrong too. It was a clarification, not a competition.

As long as wiki editors make it clear in their entries that the App is semi-canon from now on, that's fine. We can just continue on faith with this new information.

You're welcome.

Well said. And thank you.

[RumHam]

Did you miss me or something? Ran only just explained it fully around three hours ago.

The App is semi-canon, not canon, as confirmed by Ran. So I wasn't "wrong" if you wanna be technical about it, but then again all those people claiming it was canon were wrong not wrong too. It was a clarification, not a competition.

As long as wiki editors make it clear in their entries that the App is semi-canon from now on, that's fine. We can just continue on faith with this new information.

You're welcome.

No I just wasn't sure you'd come back here, and thought people would like the silly debate about where Lyanna died settled. I know that nothing is truly canon until it appears in the books, and even then it's not 100% locked down. You seemed to think the App was on the level of the wiki in terms of authority, which it's not. You even called it fan fiction a few times. It's up there with the SSMs in semi-canon land, in other words true until superseded by something else.

[Ygrain]

Even questions GRRM personally answered are still semi-canon, at least for purposes of the wiki. It's not canon until it's found between the covers of a book, is George's position. :)

And is it canon even if it is not spelled out black on white? Because I'm not gonna pretend that I do not know who killed Robb, or that Ned's subconsciousness has a weird habit of repeatedly connecting Lyanna's death with the place where he fought the three KG if she died elsewhere.

Also, thanks for stopping by to answer :-)

[WeaselPie]

No I just wasn't sure you'd come back here, and thought people would like the silly debate about where Lyanna died settled. I know that nothing is truly canon until it appears in the books, and even then it's not 100% locked down. You seemed to think the App was on the level of the wiki in terms of authority, which it's not. You even called it fan fiction a few times. It's up there with the SSMs in semi-canon land, in other words true until superseded by something else.

I never said nor thought the App was on the level of the wiki in terms of authority, I questioned first the "canon" of Lyanna being at the toj as stated on the wiki page, then I questioned the "canon" level of the App when it was used to support the "canon" level of the wiki. It was a mess.

Now we have the answers. The App is semi-canon. The correlating information on the wiki page is semi-canon.

The greater concern was the accuracy and transparency of references on the wiki. There is plenty in the wiki that's questionable. I'd be the last person to say it's an authority. I chose one major statement that would have the most meaning to discussions as an example.

My initial concern was the wiki, and will continue to be the wiki, since that's the source most fans will use. But there really should be a disclaimer on the app itself, if there isn't already, that it's semi-canon. Maybe some people only use the App and take it as gospel truth. Shrug.

So now instead of the App being used as a canon reference for the wiki, it should be responsibly stated that the App is a semi-canon reference for the wiki.

I'm sure Ran will update the References and Canon page to make it clear, and I'm sure RT will updated the Lyanna page to make that clear. Because it's not just us reading those wiki pages.

Kind of strange for people to seem so up in arms about reasonably expecting accuracy on the wiki, and expecting anyone who edits the wiki to be familiar with Ran's levels of canon. It's actually kind of strange too that no one actually asked if the App was canon before. It's been out for years.

So now we know :)

[RumHam]

I never said nor thought the App was on the level of the wiki in terms of authority, I questioned first the "canon" of Lyanna being at the toj as stated on the wiki page, then I questioned the "canon" level of the App when it was used to support the "canon" level of the wiki. It was a mess.

Now we have the answers. The App is semi-canon. The correlating information on the wiki page is semi-canon.

The greater concern was the accuracy and transparency of references on the wiki. There is plenty in the wiki that's questionable. I'd be the last person to say it's an authority. I chose one major statement that would have the most meaning to discussions as an example.

My initial concern was the wiki, and will continue to be the wiki, since that's the source most fans will use. But there really should be a disclaimer on the app itself, if there isn't already, that it's semi-canon. Maybe some people only use the App and take it as gospel truth. Shrug.

So now instead of the App being used as a canon reference for the wiki, it should be responsibly stated that the App is a semi-canon reference for the wiki.

I'm sure Ran will update the References and Canon page to make it clear, and I'm sure RT will updated the Lyanna page to make that clear. Because it's not just us reading those wiki pages.

Kind of strange for people to seem so up in arms about reasonably expecting accuracy on the wiki, and expecting anyone who edits the wiki to be familiar with Ran's levels of canon. It's actually kind of strange too that no one actually asked if the App was canon before. It's been out for years.

So now we know :)

I may have been confusing you with that other guy, if so I apologize. I'm all for accuracy on the wiki. Nothing Ran said about the app's canon status is news to me, and I think most people understood it's status. In truth there are many instances on the wiki where things that are technically semi-canon are not identified as such. Mostly things that reference SSMs. I don't think anything needs to be changed on Lyanna's page. Her presence at the Tower of Joy is made fairly clear in the books. We're using semi-canon info to confirm our interpretations of the text.

[BearQueen87]

And is it canon even if it is not spelled out black on white? Because I'm not gonna pretend that I do not know who killed Robb, or that Ned's subconsciousness has a weird habit of repeatedly connecting Lyanna's death with the place where he fought the three KG if she died elsewhere.

Also, thanks for stopping by to answer :-)

Basically that.

[enoofu]

Someone or something is shaping the events of Robert Rebeliion, ToJ, and current events

Most likely caused by R'hllor Priest

--------------------------------

Tourney at Lannisport in which Maggy meets Cersi and tell her, her future

----------------------------------

King Aerys II became Mad, some people blame Lady Serala of Myr of causing her husband Lord of Duskendale to go mad, somewhat similar to the Night King style

----------------------------------

Thoros of Myr failed to convert Aerys II

-----------------------------------

Varys was cut by a blood mage before coming to Westroes

-----------------------------------

Mance Rayder would of left the Nightwatch around this time since Benjen hasn't seen Mance

The Others, are probably reappearing now, since Castor and other wildings have been worshiping them for awhile.

-----------

No other sources of anything close to Others till Hardhome 600 years ago, with reports of evil monsters in the ruins

----------------

Tragedy at Summerhall,Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, who was born at Summerhall on the same day

while a witch tells Jaehaerys of a prince that was promised before Rhaegar was conceived and applied his brother death

----------------------------

[WeaselPie]

I may have been confusing you with that other guy, if so I apologize. I'm all for accuracy on the wiki. Nothing Ran said about the app's canon status is news to me, and I think most people understood it's status. In truth there are many instances on the wiki where things that are technically semi-canon are not identified as such. Mostly things that reference SSMs. I don't think anything needs to be changed on Lyanna's page. Her presence at the Tower of Joy is made fairly clear in the books. We're using semi-canon info to confirm our interpretations of the text.

cheers then :)

:cheers:

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor

[Eira Seren]

RumHam, thanks for that :thumbsup: That settles the issue of Lyanna's whereabouts, for me at least.

Just as it settles for me that Ned had a fever dream that combined several different elements of his personal history, maybe even based on real memories. But others will read it another way, which is why there's more than one take on any story. Even among characters in Martin's world. :)

The app being only considered semi-canon (which I think most of us already acknowledged given that we can't know specifically--without Ran--which questions GRRM personally answered) doesn't change that the "Lyanna at the TOJ" information from said app is in line with the evidence--however shaky people want to believe it is--found in A Game of Thrones, particularly in Ned Stark's fever dream where he directly associates Lyanna, the 3KG, and the TOJ together.

Thanks to Ran for answering certain questions.

I think it's good that we're understanding what's semi-canon and how we're using the info. Also, good that we're acknowledging that "the 'Lyanna at the TOJ' information from said app" is in line with evidence for one viewpoint, and that some people will read that evidence from another perspective. Being clear on the positions and frameworks we take up always seem helpful to good conversation. But I don't have any mead in hand at the moment, so I could be way off base. ;)

Hi Eira!!!! :)

Alia!!!! B) Well met!

[Sly Wren]

Just as it settles for me that Ned had a fever dream that combined several different elements of his personal history, maybe even based on real memories. But others will read it another way, which is why there's more than one take on any story. Even among characters in Martin's world. :)

I think it's good that we're understanding what's semi-canon and how we're using the info. Also, good that we're acknowledging that "the 'Lyanna at the TOJ' information from said app" is in line with evidence for one viewpoint, and that some people will read that evidence from another perspective. Being clear on the positions and frameworks we take up always seem helpful to good conversation. But I don't have any mead in hand at the moment, so I could be way off base. ;)

Amen--mead or no mead.

[Gomagoti]

âll hail King Monkey's "location' skills :bowdown:

[SFDanny]

:read: :cheers: :bowdown: wonderful, just wonderful, Kingmonkey.