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bemused

Jon The Berserker

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I think the berserker thing is more strongly tied to his "wolf blood" though his dragon blood might well make it stronger, or accelerate it in some way. If R+L=J is to be revealed directly from Bran, I don't see that Jon would need to be in a lengthy coma for that to happen.

I agree that the Weeper challenge will surface before an attack by the Others.. but I really do think Ramsay is on his way and will need to be dealt with immediately..(Roose, later)

My problem with wolfsbane is that I don't think it's been mentioned to date. Certainly I haven't noticed much being made of it ( unlike,say, tansy ) ... I believe we have to import it ourselves into the story, which would seem a little "deus ex machina" for the way GRRM writes. Jon can't get his sword free, but goes on to find the hilt of Bowen's dagger and "wrench" it free. I don't think his fingers were actually affected.

Jon would be out for a while from anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. I think the berserker would likely be combination of the wolfblood and the dragonblood. Both families have been known to have members with

I think the Weeper will take advantage of the chaos at the Wall, and take the Shadow Tower. Jon would have to deal with the Weeper first in that scenario as if he plans to meet the Boltons, he can't leave CB exposed. Besides, Jon could add the Weeper's force to his.

He still had his other hand to wrench the dagger free. We'll find out in TWoW. I agree it does sound like something GRRM would mention first.

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We don't actually know that the knife slash to the throat wasn't serious. Jon says it grazed and cut him, but that's Jon's THOUGHTS. It's not an objective truth. Jon THINKS the wound wasn't serious... not GRRM TOLD us it wasn't serious. There's a huge difference.

For anybody doubting that this isn't a plausible scenario, read Promise of The Witch King by R.A Salvatore and more specifically Mariabronne the Rover's death. Mariabronne takes a neck wound that he thinks he got mostly out of the way of and therefore isn't serious, and continues fighting as though nothing is wrong for a bit. Then suddenly he feels weak and collapses and is killed moments later. When his companions find his body, the neck wound is revealed to far more serious than Mariabronne thought.

GRRM is most certainly aware of Salvatore's works. He's one of the biggest names in fantasy, and GRRM has let him write about ASOIAF as Salvatore is one of the featured authors in Beyond The Wall, a book of essays exploring ASOIAF. In all likelihood, he's read Mariabronne's death scene, and could very likely be almost re-enacting it with Jon. Jon takes a wound that he thinks isn't serious, but in fact was (hence why he can't draw Longclaw, despite thinking he wasn't wounded badly).

TL;DR Jon's neck wound might actually have been serious. All we know is that Jon didn't think it was. Not that it actually wasn't.

There is a whole thread on this. If it was anything but a graze, the blade would have nicked a carotid artery and his heart would be pumping blood everywhere. In short, it would be an absolute mess and jon would be grabbing for his throat.

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There is a whole thread on this. If it was anything but a graze, the blade would have nicked a carotid artery and his heart would be pumping blood everywhere. In short, it would be an absolute mess and jon would be grabbing for his throat.

Then explain why Jon can't grab Longclaw after barely getting cut, and passes out seconds later? Because the entire scene likely doesn't even last 10 seconds before Jon is face first in the snow unconscious.

I know plenty of people have "analyzed" the scene to try and support their believe that Jon wasn't seriously wounded. I just don't think it makes any sense at all, because then you're essentially saying that Jon can't draw a sword despite having trained to do so for over a decade and being one of the best swordsmen present at the Wall, and was brought low in seconds by non-serious wounds. It simply doesn't make any sense when people try and say that he wasn't seriously hurt. His very actions tell us that he was.

This isn't a scene that's spread out. It's very quick, and Jon gets brought low very quickly. Non-serious wounds aren't going to do that. What Jon thinks doesn't matter at all. Clearly Jon doesn't think the neck wound was serious as he tells us that. The fact that he's already getting clumsy seconds later without having taken any other wounds, and passes out seconds later after that tells us that Jon was probably very wrong.

What Jon thinks matters not. Jon's actions show that he was hurt very badly, if not fatally. I don't mean to sound offensive to anybody who thinks he wasn't badly hurt in the whole sequence, but I think people are simply seeing what they want to see if they think he's perfectly fine. He's got plot armour and will likely end up surviving, but I doubt it's going to be because he wasn't wounded seriously

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Then explain why Jon can't grab Longclaw after barely getting cut, and passes out seconds later? Because the entire scene likely doesn't even last 10 seconds before Jon is face first in the snow unconscious.

1. I know plenty of people have "analyzed" the scene to try and support their believe that Jon wasn't seriously wounded. I just don't think it makes any sense at all, because then you're essentially saying that Jon can't draw a sword despite having trained to do so for over a decade and being one of the best swordsmen present at the Wall, and was brought low in seconds by non-serious wounds. It simply doesn't make any sense when people try and say that he wasn't seriously hurt. His very actions tell us that he was.

This isn't a scene that's spread out. It's very quick, and Jon gets brought low very quickly. Non-serious wounds aren't going to do that. What Jon thinks doesn't matter at all. Clearly Jon doesn't think the neck wound was serious as he tells us that. 2. The fact that he's already getting clumsy seconds later without having taken any other wounds, and passes out seconds later after that tells us that Jon was probably very wrong.

What Jon thinks matters not. Jon's actions show that he was hurt very badly, if not fatally. I don't mean to sound offensive to anybody who thinks he wasn't badly hurt in the whole sequence, but I think people are simply seeing what they want to see if they think he's perfectly fine. He's got plot armour and will likely end up surviving, but I doubt it's going to be because he wasn't wounded seriously

As to your point that I've numbered 1. ... I can only speak for myself , but in my case at least, you have it entirely backwards. I only came to believe that Jon is not as seriously wounded as many might think because I was analysing the attack to try to understand what had happened. I had no particular belief or desired outcome beforehand. At a superficial level it appeared he had been killed, but that made little sense with the effort that had been put into drawing the character and there were far too many obvious mysteries in the chapter. It demanded analysis.

The signs are that Mully was up to something untoward in Jon's quarters beforehand. I think it's unwise to ignore this... The mulled wine can't have been drugged because Othell, who drank more, was still on his feet . I doubt the daggers were poisoned because although I think there was a pre-existing plan to murder Jon, the moment to strike was a spontaneous decision and there would have been no time to go elsewhere first and poison the blades. Therefore, it seems that Mully probably tampered with the scabbard to make the sword difficult to draw. As you point out Jon is a good swordsman, and normally quick, and he carries a valyrian steel sword. His four apparent attackers were 3 stewards and a builder.. not generally the best fighting men. I think they wanted even more of an advantage than 4 on 1.

2. Jon was not getting clumsy. He managed to thwart Wick's second attempt and disarm him.. But I believe Jon can be wrong now and then.. and I think he's wrong about his fingers growing stiff and clumsy. This is exactly the warning he'd recieved after his hand was burned and what he's been so careful to guard against through flexing his hand. It was a thing he always feared might happen. So when he couldn't draw his sword, this might well be what flashed through his mind.

There is no real evidence that Jon passes out. ...Bowen's strike seemed more incapacitating than Wick's. ...Jon put his hand to his neck and could feel the wound was a graze.

I know GRRM likes to give a little homage, here and there to writers he likes.. but I doubt he'd duplicate another author's character and story line..now you're talking the "P" word..

I've said it before but I think the term "plot armour" is overused and often in a very juvenile way. The story is the story and GRRM doesn't just have characters miraculously escape. If they do, he's usually laid ample groundwork to explain it. He definitely has with Jon - enough to allow for more than one outcome.

Anyway, as JonisHenryTudor points out, there are threads devoted to analysing the attack. This one is to consider Jon's berserker tendencies.. whether you think they'll feature in his next chapter or not.

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I guess the point in this thread is not that Jon is "perfectly fine", but that he can derive extraordinary strength from his "berserker mode". It is normal if in a life-threatening situation all efforts and resources are concentrated on averting the danger - even if the person is wounded and seems to be losing strength.






I know GRRM likes to give a little homage, here and there to writers he likes.. but I doubt he'd duplicate another author's character and story line..now you're talking the "P" word..





I think knowing that a particular author he is known to know has already used a particular plot twist would be a good reason for GRRM to avoid that particulat twist in his own novel.



Plot armour... Every novel needs at least one or two characters who make it until the end of the plot alive. If the plot of a novel takes place in an especially dangerous world, it means some of its characters will probably survive some very dangerous situations. Among these characters are the ones that are usually called protagonists. Even though GRRM says that this novel has no single main character, he still follows the basic rules of the genre. After all, what choice does he have with the kind of plot he is writing? He either rapidly and "realistically" kills off all the characters who actually do something in his novel (they are all in danger all the time) with the result that the last two books will be about nothing but the musings of Lord Leyton Hightower, who has not descended from the Hightower in more than a decade; or he will have some characters survive wars, attacks, disasters etc. I don't see the point in calling it "plot armour" as though it was some special device, because it is not a special device. It is how novels work, and, incidentally, it is also how life works. Even in real-life wars and disasters, there usually are survivors. Novels need survivors who make it until the end (although they may die there) in order to have a plot at all.


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Anyway, as JonisHenryTudor points out, there are threads devoted to analysing the attack. This one is to consider Jon's berserker tendencies.. whether you think they'll feature in his next chapter or not.

GRRM has definitely set Jon's Character up to at some future point, while angered, achieve a feat that requires great strength &/or fighting abilities. When/if the reader questions Jon's ability to achieve said feat, he/she can then look back on numerous in-book accounts where anger has provoked Jon to seemingly inhuman displays strength &/or fighting abilities..

I don't think anyone would argue with this point... Though Jon Snow's future is quite complicated, we can all look forward to a scene where Jon is angered to the point that he is capable of feats that he normally would not be capable of...

--

I would add that the scene will likely include a moral component... Similar to the Star Wars scene where Anakin Skywalker massacres the entire tribe of Tusken Raiders - killing the women & children without discretion...

Whereas Anakin's scene was the beginning of his transformation into Darth Vader, Jon will already be well on his way to becoming the Night's King when his scene takes place - it will play a pivotal role in Jon's transformation, nonetheless...

"One day bran you will be Rob's bannerman holding a keep of your own for your brother & your king and justice will fall to you. When that day comes you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must look away. For the ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before him.

From Bran's first chapter in AGOTs... This is the first occurrence, that I am aware of, where GRRM has foreshadowed Jon Snow's downfall.

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Excellent job, Bemused!



In general I think it is the type of plot twist Martin might use. Sandor hitting Arya in the head with an axe comes to mind as a vaguely similar cliffhanging chapter end. Jon's just hangs so much longer because it is his last chapter in the book.



That isn't to say that I think Jon is perfectly fine, but George has a history of teasing far worse outcomes at the end of chapters than actually come to fruition. I'm reminded of the Berserker character class from a number of games, many of which Martin would be familiar with. The typical Berserker personality is much closer to a Robert Baratheon, but I could see him playing with that in a more introverted and quiet character like Jon. In those gaming systems Berserkers typically get a strength and health boost where there is a penalty (frequently death) if health drops below zero after the temporary health bonus vanishes when the Berserker rage ends. So, more or less following that model, there could be a berserk rage ending in a collapse that still follows the anticipated hero's journey into the underworld. Your idea doesn't have to be incompatible with the vast majority of post stabbing speculation we've seen that doesn't focus on magical resurrection.



Jon's feats of strength are pretty blatant and unambiguous, but not necessarily obvious or the prominent aspect of the drama when they're shown. Jon rips the spear out of the ground but the details about it having taken most of the night to plant the spears is masked by Marsh's concern that there may still be Wildlings about. This also happens in Mel's POV so we don't get inside Jon's mind and the Mance reveal hangs over the whole chapter on a first read. Similar distracting details exist for the Thorne confrontations. Jon lifts him off the ground by the throat but the whole Wildling invasion largely overshadows the feat of strength. We've got enough clues to be fairly certain it is going somewhere, and you've speculated on a rather plausible destination.



I haven't gone back and reread all the sections yet. Did you take a close look at the Mance/Rattleshirt fight? He specifically doesn't go berserk in that one (and mostly gets his ass kicked) but with the if he had a dagger-- he does have a dagger exchange at the end might provide some fruitful clues.



As to the wolf/dragon discussion I think there's material to look at both. For those who've guessed Jon's parentage those feats are a rather strong allusion to Viserys "waking the dragon." The whole waking the dragon theme is also on full display with Mel at the Wall and all the talk of waking dragons while we await Jon's revelation at the end of his crypt dream. The notion of Jon being a "Targaryen" runs into the theme of fatherhood. Who is Jon's father? Ned who raised him or Rhaegar the sperm donor? Jaime has this debate with himself and Cersei over Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. For all Tywin's pride in Jaime as a son, Jaime himself looks to Arthur Dayne as a father figure. Who is Jaime's father? Is he himself a father or just a sperm donor for his children? Does it really matter if Aerys turns out to be Tyrion's father? Is he any less Tywin writ small if we discover Aerys is responsible for half his genetic material? Even Theon is torn by the fatherhood issue as was Balon. I don't think Martin intends for his fatherhood questions to have easy answers.



In Jon's case Rhaegar is likely to matter because of the whole ice and fire angle, but Jon's magical connection to beastly strength at this point is through his mother and not his biological father. Targaryens are known for prophetic magical abilities and not as wargs or skinchangers. Even if one takes Valyrian blood as a prerequisite to dragon riding (which unlike the sleeping dragons is not in stone,) Jon has yet to encounter or even learn of living dragons. A magical connection to his berserker strength at this point would have to be with Ghost regardless of potential future developments. Ghost also offers potential for fulfilling Mel's man, wolf, man vision if we assume the berserker blackouts are tied to warging and drawing strength from the direwolf.



GRRM has left himself a great deal of wiggle room with this cliffhanger. It would be perfectly reasonable for Jon to be wearing some kind of armor, but he might not be. The wounds could be anything from near superficial, to temporarily debilitating like his arrow wound, to dire or mortal. Jon is the character we've seen train more than almost every other character combined. He's got the signature hand clenching that started as thoughts of Arya and home but has become a stand in for anticipating a sword fight or conflict. He's got the sword and put in the effort to believably be one of the best fighter's in the series, or he could be totally mediocre compared to the other elites. All that training and focus on being prepared leads up to what seems to be this anti-climactic swordless passive stabbing. Jon going berserk has a great deal of potential as a plot twist that plays on a number of built up aspects throughout his story. Very well put together with some nice potential connections like his black armor dream. Again, excellent job.




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Interesting read.



I don't have a lot to add. I think reading Robbs death scene is interesting, he calls out "Grey wind..."



He was also able to take a fair bit of punishment



Then the tabletop that the Smalljon had flung over Robb shifted, and her son struggled to his knees. He had an arrow in his side, a second in his leg, a third through his chest. Lord Walder raised a hand, and the music stopped, all but one drum. Catelyn heard the crash of distant battle, and closer the wild howling of a wolf. Grey Wind, she remembered too late.



Then a bit further down



‘‘Jeyne?’’ Robb grabbed the edge of the table and forced himself to stand. ‘‘Mother,’’ he said, ‘‘Grey Wind...’’



There was quite a bit of conversation that took part after he was shot but before he was killed with a sword thrust through the heart.


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Thanks, Ragnorak, you're too kind ;) .. And "THANKS TO YOU", too! :D .. If this seems too, too much, I can't help it.. You've made me a bit giddy, and here's why :


I thought I had considered Jon's Mance/Rattleshirt bout. I certainly have, often (while discussing glamours, whether Stannis knew, Mance's motives, etc.) ..but when writing the OP, I foolishly thought I knew it very well by now, and didn't need to double check it. Heh. You prompted me to look again, and there are several interesting bits , not only when he's fighting Mance , but when taking on the three newbies, beforehand.


When Iron Emmett spied him, he raised a hand and combat ceased. “Lord Commander. How

may we serve you?”

“With your three best.”

Emmett grinned. “Arron. Emrick. Jace.”


..Jon gets armed for the bout and uses .. a blunted longsword ... ... The blade was

shorter than Longclaw but made of common steel, which made it heavier. His blows would be a little slower.


Jace opines three on one isn't fair and Jon puts him down immediately... “War is never fair,” Jon told him. “It’s two on one now, and you’re dead.


When he heard gravel crunch, he knew the twins were coming... The fight progresses with Jon instructing and mentally assessing the boys throughout , until... ... When he saw relief in Arron’s eyes, he knew Emrick was behind him. He came around and dealt him a cut to the back of the shoulders that sent him crashing into his brother. By that time Jace had found his feet, so Jon put him down again. “I hate it when dead men get up. You’ll feel the same the day you meet a wight.” Stepping back, he lowered his sword.


So, might Jon have seen relief in Bowen's eyes? (George might craftily neglect to tell us) If so, falling to his knees might, in part, be a defensive move. (or it might just convince him that another man with a dagger is about to strike from behind) I don't think this amounts to a big "Aha!", but it raises my eyebrows. Jon had been very aware and noticing all sorts of details up to this point...


Back to the 3 on 1.. Next,, Jon delivers a "cut" , which with his blunt sword, turns it into a blunt force blow to the back of Emrick's shoulders, sending him crashing into his brother.


I think this resonates with .. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. .. and only adds to my feeling that at that point ,Jon was pushed, shoved or knocked forward, rather than stabbed.


But back to Mance.. Now, he challenges Jon and a hard bout ensues. Jon is hampered by his heavy blade and confused by the glamour, but remains analytical throughout (even in defeat)... “He does have a dagger. Right there on his belt.”


And though he finds Rattleshirt despicable, remains calm and reacts with the same "cold courtesy" he earlier showed to Marsh and Thorne.


Jon struggled to one knee. His head was ringing, and his mouth was full of blood. He spat it out

and said, “Well fought.”


So what's the difference between this scene and Jon's attacks on Thorne and the Iron Emmett episode? In this scene too, his bell has been rung and there's blood in his mouth, but here, he's cool as can be.


Importantly, Mance has not offended his Stark blood. Thorne does, knowingly, in both cases (Jon's father is a traitor, Jon and Benjen were culpable in Mormont's murder.."You know these Starks, my lord")..and Emmett does, inadvertently, by bringing on the flashback..(Jon can never be Lord of Winterfell, Catelyn says so ... he's just a bastard.)


I have to take note of the blood filling his mouth. In the Emmett bout Jon could taste it. We aren't told he swallowed it, but we aren't told he spat it out.. Here we aren't told he could taste it but we're specifically told he spat it out... I don't know, guys ...I sense obfuscation.


We could digress into discussions of the distinctions between swallowing, spitting out, tasting, the location of taste buds, and so on, but I don't think it would help much(ETA-because something's being hidden from us).


Still, I feel sure something is at work.. even though the fine details aren't really clear yet.


There's much more I want to respond to, but I have other things to do first..


ETA: meant to say, Jon won't hate it when he's the "dead" man getting up, as long as he's "dead" in the same sense Jace is (which I trust will be the case).

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With Ned and LF doesn't LF make a lot of slimy comments about cat before that? i remember feeling like i would have told LF to F off way before that.


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:bowdown: Beautifully done Bemused, as usual.



A few things that came to mind...


1) When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt and wake the dragons out of stone. Jon in berserker mode after FTW and his smoking wounds could be the wakening of the stone dragon. Perhaps his previous hulking out is only a mild example of the ferocity that'll be awakened in him. They woke the dragon. ETA: Took me too long to read it and forgot some of what was already said, sorry.


2) There's a line from Jon's POV right after the initial assault on castle black. "He was chilled and feverish, and suddenly the weight of the longbow was too much. The battle with the Magnar had been nothing, he realized, and the night fight less than nothing, only a probe, a dagger in the dark to try and catch them unprepared. The real battle was only now beginning." ASoS, Chapter 64


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:bowdown: Beautifully done Bemused, as usual.

A few things that came to mind...

1) When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt and wake the dragons out of stone. Jon in berserker mode after FTW and his smoking wounds could be the wakening of the stone dragon. Perhaps his previous hulking out is only a mild example of the ferocity that'll be awakened in him. They woke the dragon.

2) There's a line from Jon's POV right after the initial assault on castle black. "He was chilled and feverish, and suddenly the weight of the longbow was too much. The battle with the Magnar had been nothing, he realized, and the night fight less than nothing, only a probe, a dagger in the dark to try and catch them unprepared. The real battle was only now beginning." ASoS, Chapter 64

That's an amazing find! :thumbsup:

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There is a whole thread on this. If it was anything but a graze, the blade would have nicked a carotid artery and his heart would be pumping blood everywhere. In short, it would be an absolute mess and jon would be grabbing for his throat.

This is very wrong... Your carotid Artery is in the center of your neck... Your jugular veins are not nearly as deep, but they are not shallow by any means... So it is very possible to get a semi-deep cut in the neck that bleeds a lot, but is not life threatening...

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I'm sold.



Some extra Stark-Berserker trait examples:



1. Brandon Stark AKA "The Wild Wolf" yelling for Rhaegar to come out challenging him to a duel is reminiscent of the Hector!! scene in Troy.


  • "He was rather hot-blooded, something their father, Lord Rickard, described as coming from "the wolf blood". Brandon shared this trait with his sister, Lyanna."[1]

2. Arya goes berserk on The Tickler, stabbing him multiple times


3. Lyanna Stark has been on multiple occasions recalled as "wilful", "wild" etc. She wasn't afraid to stand up against three squires to defend Howland Reed at Harrenhall[2].



Notice how these are the more "Starky" ones, there's no mention of Sansa or Robb (who are more Tully-like) having these traits.


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This is very wrong... Your carotid Artery is in the center of your neck... Your jugular veins are not nearly as deep, but they are not shallow by any means... So it is very possible to get a semi-deep cut in the neck that bleeds a lot, but is not life threatening...

https://www.google.com/search?q=carotid+artery&rlz=1CASMAE_enUS556US556&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIjqDY0eyIxgIVSRiSCh3b2QAa#imgrc=RHT69UfE5zgffM%253A%3BdE306s4CLFtj_M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimages.lifescript.com%252Fimages%252Febsco%252Fimages%252Fexh37748.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.lifescript.com%252Fhealth%252Fa-z%252Ftreatments_a-z%252Fprocedures%252Fc%252Fcarotid_artery_endarterectomy.aspx%3B390%3B265

There is a schematic.

And another:

https://www.google.com/search?q=carotid+artery&rlz=1CASMAE_enUS556US556&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIjqDY0eyIxgIVSRiSCh3b2QAa#imgrc=5mz7rGtahBHziM%253A%3Bmb1SdHKd9kFOFM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fclassconnection.s3.amazonaws.com%252F81%252Fflashcards%252F866081%252Fjpg%252Fcarotid_arteries_pic1328675165602.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.studyblue.com%252Fnotes%252Fnote%252Fn%252Fcardiovascular-system%252Fdeck%252F5593679%3B300%3B287

And this from UCSD Med - the carotids can be located by sliding the second and third finger of either hand along the side of the trachea at the level of the thyroid cartilage (i.e. adams apple). The carotid pulsation is palpable just lateral to the groove formed by the trachea and the surrounding soft tissue. The quantity of subcutaneous fat will dictate how firmly you need to push. The pulsations should be easily palpable. Diminution may be caused by atherosclerosis, aortic stenosis, or severely impaired ventricular performance. Do not push on both sides simultaneously as this may compromise cerebral blood flow

And there is this: I will offer a warning first before viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plvKlnguJVE

So yes. A deep cut to the neck area would certainly reach the artery. I can easily locate mine, and a very sharp blade would have no problem cutting mine. Jon is not suffering from obesity, and it is likely that he has a fairly think neck ;).

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I guess will find out through the show how the assassination goes by, but I just can't ignore all the clues pointing towards Jon being out of it for a longer period of time.





Bran - AGOT:



Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.





This does not sound like anything that has already happened to Jon.



Why Varamyr's TRUE death, cold, second life...POV?



Why show Mel's vision of man, wolf, man?



Benioff spoiling Stannis and Shireen fates...



It all adds up to Jon dying or being so seriously injured that his soul left the body and is in Ghost.




Him getting up and going into berserker mode seems like wishful thinking, sorry.


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I guess will find out through the show how the assassination goes by, but I just can't ignore all the clues pointing towards Jon being out of it for a longer period of time.

This does not sound like anything that has already happened to Jon.

Why Varamyr's TRUE death, cold, second life...POV?

Why show Mel's vision of man, wolf, man?

Benioff spoiling Stannis and Shireen fates...

It all adds up to Jon dying or being so seriously injured that his soul left the body and is in Ghost.

Him getting up and going into berserker mode seems like wishful thinking, sorry.

Well Said... We have 5 books worth of heavy foreshadowing that all point toward Jon Body being out of commission for an extended period of time.

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Further to Ragnorak's post .. I agree that Jon is unlikely to be prefectly fine. We do know of two injuries for sure and while I think Jon can be trusted to know the neck wound is a graze, that can still be nasty, and the severity of the stomach wound is unknown ..I definitely think it's not fatal , but wouldn't be surprised if it keeps him out of action for a bit (I just don't think it can or will be for a long time) ..and because of other questions I've been interested in..I don't think the healing will involve Mel.


I do think Jon has reached the point where he needs to explore his bond with Ghost more fully. I just doubt we'll see Jon spend whole chapters in Ghost, if only because of the language used in wolf passages ... and the same would be true of whole chapters of coma dreams.


I know what you mean about the character of berserkers in fantasy gaming (I've taken part in a handful of dungeons myself, way back when, and my sons were into D&D bigtime, for a while.) However, Jon is a wolf, not a bear (though interestingly, he carries a bear's weapon)... Then, if GRRM mixed in a bit of the classic werewolf hero/anti-hero figure, you might expect a more still-waters-run-deep, brooding kind of character, much more like Jon than Robert.. Maybe Jon is a cocktail ? ;) I, too, connect this to his Stark side - his mothers blood. We also see the emotional flow between warg and wolf, not to metion the lending of strength. .. But Jon's dragon blood could intensify it (like Robert's fortified wine).. This may be why the tendency seems more full-blown in Jon , as compared to the manifestation in his "siblings".


I can't see Jon ceasing to think of Ned as his father..Even if he should one day be proud to be recognized as Rhaegar's son.. Ned will always be the father he knew... and before we had scientific means of testing, the saying "It's a wise child that knows his father" carried much more resonance than it does today. i think GRRM is playing with this, simultaneously making us pay attention to matrilinial descent.


But back to Jon's impending healing (however intensive it needs to be) - A couple of years ago, I started a thread about Val and Tormund, their relationships to the old gods and positions in wildling society.. I don't quite see Val as a valkyrie figure, I see her and Dalla as linked more strongly to the Vala of Norse religious practice rather than to Norse mythology (though there are tips of the hat to Norse mythology as well). .. Anyway, the Vala = prophetesses, seers, visionaries - wise women (some, but not all of whom, have healing skills). I've speculated before that Dalla may even be the wise woman's "daughter" who healed Mance. Dalla and Val may or may not be biological sisters , but are definitely sisters by vocation.(By their decriptions, I think there's quite an age gap between them.)


Still in keeping with Norse society, healing seems more the calling of witches ( some of whom, but not all, may have some skill as seers). Morna White Mask, "the warrior witch" commands Queensgate (next door to CB) and as one of the wildling leaders, should have been among those summoned to the Shieldhall. Jon doesn't take note of her, but that doesn't mean she wasn't there**... or, she may have been with Val .When seeking a vision, a Vala might be assisted by peers or followers, or others who knew the proper rituals or songs.


Val jokes(?) that she sings to herself, but the Monster likes to listen. This is brought up just before she leaves to find Tormund, saying she knows where she must go.


I've always suspected Morna may have a lot of skill with battle wounds, being a warrior and a witch. Jon thinks Ghost belongs to the old gods, and that Val and Ghost look like they belong together.. Val wears a weirwood mask pin, Morna wears a weirwood mask...


The would-be assassination takes place outside of Val's quarters, not Mel's. Wildling healing saved Mance (who was badly wounded and losing a lot of blood) using "porridges and potions" .. Bran is fed a "paste" of weirwood seeds by the CoTF, to "wed him to the tree" (and only weirwood seeds,IMO) ...What other properties might various parts of the tree have ?.. and wouldn't wildling witches have found some uses on their own, down through the centuries ? Any medicinal use of the weirwood would seem gods-given.


If any herb, leaf, bark or seed is efficacious for wounds, I'd think a warrior witch might keep a pouch of it on her person. (This is a guess, but a reasonable guess.) ..However, there's no doubt, or guesswork about where the attack takes place.. or that the greatest number of Jon's supporters are wildlings, and would trust their own methods much more than Mel's. (The wildlings at CB outnumber all the other factions put together by quite a margin.)


So not only do I think that Mel's healing could be harmful to Jon.. I think she's unlikely to get control of him, in any case.


ETA: ** Note that when Jon emerges from his audience with Selyse, Tormund arrives as Jon is speaking to Leathers. He's late. I'm going to guess Morna wouldn't be.Toregg is with Val. .. I'm also thinking Jon is wrong about Toregg's designs on Val. Toregg may or may not be keen on the young "milkmaid" , but I think he's there as his father's representative. A go-between.

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