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Jon The Berserker

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2) There's a line from Jon's POV right after the initial assault on castle black. "He was chilled and feverish, and suddenly the weight of the longbow was too much. The battle with the Magnar had been nothing, he realized, and the night fight less than nothing, only a probe, a dagger in the dark to try and catch them unprepared. The real battle was only now beginning." ASoS, Chapter 64

That is a terrific find. :)

Coming when it does, Jon and the NW do go on to withstand Mance's attack , and live to see another day. And the chapter ends with Maester Aemon saying, "Donal chose you, and Qhorin Halfhand before him. Lord Commander Mormont made you his steward. You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one. The Wall is yours, Jon Snow.”

I just feel that "It must be you or no one" also applies to whatever challenge comes at the wall next following the attack, whether it's Ramsay, the Weeper, or the Others themselves.

Just as there was little time between Styr's attack and Mance's, I think the next threat is coming right up, and it must be Jon or no one who answers it.

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Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

This does not sound like anything that has already happened to Jon.

I'm not so sure about that.

Firstly, the vision appears as part of a series of visions many of which feature Stark family members. All those other visions are decidedly visions of the present, not visions of the future: Robb "practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel", Catelyn travelling on a galley with Ser Rodrik, Ned "pleading with the king" and so on. It seems to imply that the vision of Jon Snow also refers to the present rather than the future. Besides, the concluding line says: "Because winter is coming", not something like "This is what you can expect when winter is here".

Secondly, the cold is mentioned very emphatically in the next Jon chapter in the description of how Jon is feeling in his new environment, and we find out that he is lonely and unhappy. His memories of warmth are his memories of Winterfell, of belonging there.

Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years, he would forget what it felt like to be warm.

...

So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man's body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder.

...

Even his uncle had abandoned him in this cold place at the end of the world. Up here, the genial Benjen Stark he had known became a different person.

...

He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.

...

Afterward he sought out Ghost in the loneliness of his cell (...)

We find out that his sleeping cell is in Hardin's Tower and well away from the others.

Jon was cold with rage.

...

"I hate it here. It's too ... it's cold."

"Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that's the Wall, and the men who walk it."

Being cold and forgetting the warmth seems to be a metaphor for becoming a man of the Night's Watch, for being lonely and perhaps for accepting the necessity to give up his family and his former life.

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I agree that all other visions are of past/present but George is a tricky one and he saves the vision of Jon for last and it is tonally different from the others, the only one that is showing the future. Wall is a magical tricky beast.



Read again:





Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed




Why is Jon SLEEPING? Alone? In a cold bed? That is oddly specific.





his skin growing pale and hard



That right here is red hot sign that this vision with Jon is off somehow from the others. Pale skin, huh...Maybe it's because of the blood he lost after he was stabbed. Hard? Well... What happens to dead people?






Anyway, in just one short day we'll know how serious Jon's injuries really are.



As I posted just recently in a thread that I made, even if Jon is barely alive, or actually dead, the way he gets to be reborn, revived, resurrected, healed, whatever, will play in the same way. Unintentionally, by a lot of different factors. Mel, Bran, Val, the WW's, it all has to click just right to get his soul back into his body. And the Wall has to be destroyed. Jon is ASoiaf's Jesus or Mithras, a genuine messiah figure. He can't just get into berserk mode and all will be fine and dandy. It's bigger than that.


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I agree that all other visions are of past/present but George is a tricky one and he saves the vision of Jon for last and it is tonally different from the others, the only one that is showing the future. Wall is a magical tricky beast.

Read again:

1. Why is Jon SLEEPING? Alone? In a cold bed? That is oddly specific.

2.That right here is red hot sign that this vision with Jon is off somehow from the others. Pale skin, huh...Maybe it's because of the blood he lost after he was stabbed. Hard? Well... What happens to dead people?

Anyway, in just one short day we'll know how serious Jon's injuries really are.

As I posted just recently in a thread that I made, even if Jon is barely alive, or actually dead, the way he gets to be reborn, revived, resurrected, healed, whatever, will play in the same way. Unintentionally, by a lot of different factors. Mel, Bran, Val, the WW's, it all has to click just right to get his soul back into his body. And the Wall has to be destroyed. Jon is ASoiaf Jesus or Mithras, a real messiah fiugre. Not Dany. He can't just get into berserk mode and all will be fine and dandy. It's bigger than that.

1. I suppose Jon is sleeping because it is night. In Winterfell he shared a room with his brothers. It is mentioned in the first Jon chapter. In Castle Black he has chosen a sleeping cell in a tower that looks like half a ruin because it is far from the other recruits. Above I mentioned the "loneliness of his cell". He also tells Tyrion: "It's better that I'm by myself" when he speaks of his sleeping cell. There is a strong contrast between this and the place he had among his brothers in Winterfell. The bed is cold because all Castle Black is cold, too cold for him, especially in contrast to Winterfell, as the quotes in my previous post illustrate.

2. It's an interesting line, true, but still: He can be pale because he is lonely and sad and because the days are probably darker up there than in the area of Winterfell. He is probably afraid of the life waiting for him, anxious about the lifelong commitment he is going to make. Hard has lots of meanings: In the quotes I gave above, the men of the Night's Watch are described as cold and hard. It does include the imagery of death (and so does the NW vow, the very name of the organization), but it is perfectly understandable even in a vision referring to the present: To become a man of the Night's Watch, Jon will have to give up his life, he will have to give up Life itself as he has known it so far.

From the same Jon chapter:

"Life," Jon repeated bitterly. The armorer could talk about life. He'd had one. (...) He'd done all the things Jon would never do (...)

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I might be mixing up the order of events, but I thought the vision of Jon in a cold bed was him being in the ice cells after he leaves the Wildlings. He's alone bc he betrayed the Wildlings and most of his NW brothers think he's a turncloak. The warmth leaving him was him realizing how truly cruel and harsh the world, and his specific situation, is.






That is a terrific find. :)



Coming when it does, Jon and the NW do go on to withstand Mance's attack , and live to see another day. And the chapter ends with Maester Aemon saying, "Donal chose you, and Qhorin Halfhand before him. Lord Commander Mormont made you his steward. You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one. The Wall is yours, Jon Snow.”



I just feel that "It must be you or no one" also applies to whatever challenge comes at the wall next following the attack, whether it's Ramsay, the Weeper, or the Others themselves.



Just as there was little time between Styr's attack and Mance's, I think the next threat is coming right up, and it must be Jon or no one who answers it.




Thanks and I agree. I like how Maester Aemon's words to Jon fit him whether or not Ned is his father. He IS a son of WF and Benjen's nephew in either event.



Backing up a little to the Oak & Iron (Tormund and Emmett) and shield discussion there is also Soren Shieldbreaker there in the Shieldhall. Jon had arranged for him to command the Stonedoor castle. Any thoughts on what role he may play in the aftermath of the attack on Jon?


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I disagree that Jon's sudden bouts of anger or strength are associated with wolfs blood. As stated in the text, Lyanna and Brandon both had touches of it and it was in reference to their personalities. The term "waking the dragon" would fit much better in this case.

We don't have any examples of any Targaryens doing anything unusual or impressive when they "wake the dragon" -- just Viserys being generally pathetic. We do see this with the wolf blood, however.

"Is there gold hidden in this village?" she shouted as she drove the blade up through his back. "Is there silver? Gems?" She stabbed twice more. "Is there food? Where is Lord Beric?" She was on top of him then, still stabbing. "Where did he go? How many men were with him? How many knights? How many bowmen? How many, how many, how many, how many, how many, how many? Is there gold in this village?"

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Julia.. nice job of searching out all those references..I don't think there's much doubt that this is what Bran's vision refers to.



Later, when Thorne puts Jon in the ice cell , he tells him he will die in there. Jon believes him. But there's no bed in there, not even room to stretch out ( and he believes he will die in there.. not that he will be placed there, dead.) I can't see why the one part of the vision featuring Jon should be of the future, when Jon's present fits with it so well.


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From Bran's first chapter in AGOTs... This is the first occurrence, that I am aware of, where GRRM has foreshadowed Jon Snow's downfall.

"One day bran you will be Rob's bannerman holding a keep of your own for your brother & your king and justice will fall to you. When that day comes you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must look away. For the ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before him.

I honestly don't understand how you can project Jon's downfall based on that quote.. The story is transitioning from the execution scene to the finding of the direwolf pups. Ned is giving Bran a lesson he has obviously given to both Robb and Jon before Bran.

We see both Robb and Jon follow through on the advice, later on ...neither uses a paid executioner. Robb's decision to execute Karstark in the first place may have been a little rash.. Jon uses the lesson more judiciously, first giving Slynt ample opportunity to comply with Jon's orders.

Jon has truly understood the lesson.

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1. I suppose Jon is sleeping because it is night. In Winterfell he shared a room with his brothers. It is mentioned in the first Jon chapter. In Castle Black he has chosen a sleeping cell in a tower that looks like half a ruin because it is far from the other recruits. Above I mentioned the "loneliness of his cell". He also tells Tyrion: "It's better that I'm by myself" when he speaks of his sleeping cell. There is a strong contrast between this and the place he had among his brothers in Winterfell. The bed is cold because all Castle Black is cold, too cold for him, especially in contrast to Winterfell, as the quotes in my previous post illustrate.

2. It's an interesting line, true, but still: He can be pale because he is lonely and sad and because the days are probably darker up there than in the area of Winterfell. He is probably afraid of the life waiting for him, anxious about the lifelong commitment he is going to make. Hard has lots of meanings: In the quotes I gave above, the men of the Night's Watch are described as cold and hard. It does include the imagery of death (and so does the NW vow, the very name of the organization), but it is perfectly understandable even in a vision referring to the present: To become a man of the Night's Watch, Jon will have to give up his life, he will have to give up Life itself as he has known it so far.

From the same Jon chapter:

"Life," Jon repeated bitterly. The armorer could talk about life. He'd had one. (...) He'd done all the things Jon would never do (...)

Jon never sleeps alone because he always sleeps with Ghost.

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Jon never sleeps alone because he always sleeps with Ghost.

Yet, he specifically tells Tyrion he is "by himself" in his sleeping cell. "Alone" / "by himself" means without his brothers, with no friends nearby, lonely.In Winterfell he was never alone or lonely. Yes, he has Ghost for comfort, but that's only comfort, Ghost cannot replace brothers, friends, family. Besides, there might be times when Ghost goes out hunting or exploring at night. He does that in ADwD, as suggested by Jon's wolf dream. In AGoT, he is very active during Jon's night rides as well (first when Jon rides out and makes the final decision to take the NW vow and secondly when Jon tries to desert). It is quite possible that Ghost is not always in Jon's sleeping cell at night, so he can be literally alone. But the main point is the loneliness. The main point is that Jon has become a "lone wolf", who has lost his old pack (just like Ghost) and has not found the new one yet.

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Just a thought. If Jon is killed, maybe catelyn will be the one to resurrect him?

I'm afraid it is neither likely nor desirable.

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I've looked deeper into the name Val - it is a short form of Valerie, which is another form of the latin, Valeria. Valeria means:





"to be healthy" or "to be strong" - Wikipedia




I truly believe that Val will have something to do with Jon's recovery.


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I'm afraid it is neither likely nor desirable.

I agree it isn't likely, but I like the idea. Catelyn has treated Jon badly his entire life. She is a twisted shell of her former self filled with hatred. If she discovers Jons real parentage, takes a deep look at how she treated him, and decides to exchange her life for his, it would be a nice symbolic act of contrition that would also release her from her own miserable existence.

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I agree it isn't likely, but I like the idea. Catelyn has treated Jon badly his entire life. She is a twisted shell of her former self filled with hatred. If she discovers Jons real parentage, takes a deep look at how she treated him, and decides to exchange her life for his, it would be a nice symbolic act of contrition that would also release her from her own miserable existence.

And make Jon's existence miserable in the process...bonus! ;)

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Last night's epi totally sold me onto this thread's idea that Jon is just mildly injured and is gonna get back up and deal with the situation accordingly with his berserker powers.


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I've looked deeper into the name Val - it is a short form of Valerie, which is another form of the latin, Valeria. Valeria means:

I truly believe that Val will have something to do with Jon's recovery.

There is a lot more to the name Val than that...

It was thoroughly foreshadowed in ADWDs that Val & Ghost/Jon would be spending a lot of time together in TWOW... They will be in route to the Heart of Winter...

---

& there is a 0% chance of Lady Stoneheart being the key to Jon's Resurrection... Though it is an idea that I had once considered... She has a role to play, but that is not it...

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Melisandre got back to the Wall just in time. Her powers are strongest at the Wall and Shireen was just sacrificed, so she will definitely have a hand I his resurrection.

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I honestly don't understand how you can project Jon's downfall based on that quote.. The story is transitioning from the execution scene to the finding of the direwolf pups. Ned is giving Bran a lesson he has obviously given to both Robb and Jon before Bran.

We see both Robb and Jon follow through on the advice, later on ...neither uses a paid executioner. Robb's decision to execute Karstark in the first place may have been a little rash.. Jon uses the lesson more judiciously, first giving Slynt ample opportunity to comply with Jon's orders.

Jon has truly understood the lesson.

Ned mentions 'forgetting what death is' & Jon just happens to reappear of over the ridge at that time as if to remind them... Foreshadowing that is only designed to be caught after the series is complete...

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I meant to come back and add this before ,but it seems I forgot ..

 

I relied somewhat on what I remembered of Norse beliefs and though I knew the term berserker (well, everyone knows it), I knew they were not only bear related, but had forgotten whether the ones associated with wolves had their own term (makes sense they would) so I looked it up.. it's "Ulfheddin" ..together, berserkers and ulfheddin were known as "Odin's men" ( I'm reminded of the Odin visuals displayed by Bloodraven - one-eyed, attached to tree, with wolf and raven minions..etc.etc.etc.) Jon is the champion of Bloodraven, Bran and the old gods.

 

I wanted to say (repeat?) that I don't think Arya's episode with the tickler is the same kind of thing.. I think it's more hysteria-fuelled (entirely understandable, after witnessing his torturing for days on end).. It's different because she is aware at all times.. and later in Braavos she remembers how it felt as she stabbed him repeatedly. Jon has no awareness of what he did during the attack on Emmett.

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