[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[Chloe.a.thomson]

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

" — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."

George RR Martin.

Stannis also promised to make Renly his heir ;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

To the people saying "but it makes sense Stannis would in the books!", "but he killed Renly!", well, we got it. You didn't understand the books :dunno:

There, take a cookie.

[Dragon_Rider]

I can't see them pulling this by going off book, I'm fully expecting book Stannis to walk the same dark, despicable path. But for book Stannis it makes more sense - his views on sacrifice are emphasised more heavily, and he's nowhere near as close to Shireen.

They rushed the hell out of the character development leading up to this, making it feel out of place and unlikely. It's a shame, it should've been an incredibly powerful turning point for the characters that the audience felt as well as saw. The way it went down felt more like shock tactics

He did kill his own brother back in season 2, for no other than reason than because Mel said so and it would win him the Iron Throne. I'm pretty sure the whole kill-family-for-sheer-ambition was already well established for his character.

[Ironkiller]

LOL at the fandom right now.

1. Certain fans: "STANNIS BURNING SHIREEN IS OFF-BOOK TRASH, HOW DARE D&D, THEY HAVE FUNDAMENTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD BOOK STANNIS' CHARACTER, GRRM WOULD NEVAH"

2. D&D: "George told us this happens."

3. Certain fans:

A. D&D ARE FILTHY LIARS, GRRM WOULD NEVAH, or

B. If GRRM does it, it will be SUPER AMAZING and WILL TOTALLY MAKE SENSE and WILL BE TOTALLY CONSISTENT WITH BOOK STANNIS' CHARACTER

Yeah, right. Stannis will magically fly to the Wall with Littlefinger's teleport device and kill Shireen with his own hands, sounds fucking legit.

Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that the guy who held Storm's End would break up to a few days in a storm? IF, and only IF Stannis burns Shireen (he won't, it will be Melisandre) it will be CLEARLY for the greater good, like delaying the others for a year or something, not to take damn ruined Winterfell.

[_LongClaw_]

I expected FTW to take place this season at some point, but for next week's episode to have FTW, Walk of Shame, start of the battle of winterfell, plus Arya, Brienne, and Meereen seems unlikely.

[Newstar]

To the people saying "but it makes sense Stannis would in the books!", "but he killed Renly!", well, we got it. You didn't understand the books :dunno:

There, take a cookie.

LOL, I think if anything the takeaway from Benioff's reveal is that Stannis fans who claimed that BOOK STANNIS WOULD NEVAH "didn't understand the books." Oh, well.

[jaimereborn]

I like GRRM's latest sly dig at GOT:

For all of you who are enjoying OUTLANDER, the marvelous adaptation of Diana Gabaldon's time travel novels that just finished its first season on STARZ... well, the show is terrific, but the books are even better (as is so often the case)

[Rockroi]

It is with deep sadness that I must report of the death of a much beloved friend- the HBO Show “Game of Thrones” died earlier this evening after a long and tragic illness after it underwent unsuccessful surgery to have its author removed.

The Show was one week short of its Fifth birthday at the time of its death.

The Show enjoyed exceptional, many would say surprising, health in its first three years of life, with exceptional highs in season two and three when the show followed the books most faithfully. In fact, the closer the show followed the books, the better it was. Sadly, signs of illness began in Season One- strangely- when Drogo needlessly raped Dany Targaryen- a scene totally void in the books. Also, Shea was talking like book-Shea but was in no way the same character- she had a different back-story, seemed wiser, more worldly etc. This lead to a character TALKING like Shea but not ACTING like Shea. Also, D&D’s choice to have Shea played by a life-less mannequin was considered controversial. Season 2 also had strange scenes with unexplained issues involving several characters. Then, in season 3 the removal of Lady Stoneheart, the questionable direction of Stannis Baratheon, and a highly – and many say needless- dip into sexual perversion.

GoT took a turn for the worse in Season 4 when Jaime Lannister – inexplicably- raped Cersei Lannister leading to the show-runners admitting that they DID NOT KNOW WHAT RAPE WAS!

Season Five, though, led to the very drastic decision by the show runners to no longer follow the books- opting to surgically remove George R.R. Martin’s words from the story process, DESPITE the fact that in Season 4- there were whole story lines NOT in the books that made ZERO sense, most notably why Jon Snow went to Craster’s Keep and specifically DID NOT find Bran. Even though Bran – as a cripple being dragged by a Giant and two high-born kids with him, WOULD BE HARD TO FORGET! Turns out- NOBODY REMEMBERED HE WAS FUCKING THERE! Still when Season 4 followed the source material- ie: the Mountain and the Viper- it experienced unparalleled success.

However, Season Five started slow, its episodes long-winded, filled with filler and rarely going anywhere; plots were usually dedicated to strange- some would say convoluted – plot points and needless acrimony. Then, more rapes, especially to Sansa in what many people considered the low point of the show. Medical and Entertainment experts agreed- it was only a matter of time. This was made worse when Gilly was- again- needlessly and pointlessly almost raped. Then, the pointless and random killing of major characters like Barristan Selmy and Mance Ryder.

Then, almost heroically, D&D stopped ripping off George RR Martin and started ripping off Walking Dead and made a very good episode involving zombies attacking people and political intrigue etc. IT would prove to be a final rally for a once great show.

In Week 9, GoT had Arya follow a COMPLETELY UNIMPORTANT CHARACTER AROUND FOR ABOUT HALF A FUCKING HOUR FOR NO FUCKING REASON AT ALL!!!!! Then Mance Tyrell sang (not bad, really); and then we saw MAYBE the worst scene ever in GOT history:

… Jaime.. in Dorne… where he talks to three Dornish characters and they agree to let him and Bronn go… then a … HAND-SLAPPING SCENE!!!!!! WOW!!!!! It takes like 50 minutes of the show to DO SOMETHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EXPLAINED IN TWO SENTENCES!!!!!Then Bronn gets punched…

(RIM SHOT!... loser Theme from Price is Right "Bum-bum-ba-ba-bum... baaaaahhhhhhhhhh....)

Then Stannis…

Stannis Baratheon has- routinely- been the worst-best character the show had: sometimes brave, other times honorable, most of the time reasonable.. but the show wanted a religious zealot who burned people alive… and then they had him act like a fucking idiot most of the time… THEN a few weeks ago he had this awesome scene with Stannis declaring that he loved his daughter because she was a Bratheon!!!! HOORAY!!!!

So the only sensible thing to do after hat was, of course, have Stannis burn that same girl he declared his love for alive at the stake. That makes sense, right?

FUCK NO!!!! NOPE!!! Stannis has to kill his OWN DAUGHTER- HIS ONLY HEIR!!!! BECAUSE…. Because D&D don’t know how to make a show; they don’t understand this show’s characters, how to build story and they don’t know why GoT works. Because they are bad at this job UNLESS they are explicitly following Martin’s words. While sometimes they DID LEGITIMATELY improve the story when they went away from Martin (ie: Viserys, Robert, deep-sixing Tysha, Sansa in WF, Arya+ Tywin) THE SHOW WAS ALMOST ALWAYS WORSE WHEN THEY WENT THEIR OWN WAY (Dany-rape, Cersei rape, Sansa rape, oversimplification of major story-lines etc) and the show was at its best when they strictly followed Martin (Blackwater, Mountain v. Viper; Red Wedding, Purple Wedding)- there can be no debate on that point.

The Show finally succumbed to its own self-inflicted amputation of Martin when Stannis … … … burned his own daughter alive because arbitrary characters are arbitrary. The show breathed its last when a supposedly good and honorable man Stannis …. … … watched his own daughter burn to death by his own orders. Because this show does not know what it was ever doing without following directions.

Witnesses claimed the show seemed to be a live a few minutes later, but sources confirmed that the signs of the show appearing alive were just cheesy Special Effects and a CGI of a dragon. The show was officially declared dead shortly thereafter. Funeral arrangements will take place over the next two seasons with a final burial planed for sometime in 2017.

The Show is survived by its killers, D&D, a host of exceptionally talented actors, and the shitty ones like Shea, a bunch of people who never read the books so don't know what's going on, and only watched the show and are equal parts confused and bored (or fooled into thinking the show is still alive), and a legions of fans who will now wait in stony silence as this funeral procession of the next two seasons to end so we can get a real fucking book with real fucking characters and a real fucking plot.

Donations can be made to any book store selling the real Song of Ice and Fire.

Not … not this.

[NikkiG]

LOL at the fandom right now.

1. Certain fans: "STANNIS BURNING SHIREEN IS OFF-BOOK TRASH, HOW DARE D&D, THEY HAVE FUNDAMENTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD BOOK STANNIS' CHARACTER, GRRM WOULD NEVAH"

2. D&D: "George told us this happens."

3. Certain fans:

A. D&D ARE FILTHY LIARS, GRRM WOULD NEVAH, or

B. If GRRM does it, it will be SUPER AMAZING and WILL TOTALLY MAKE SENSE and WILL BE TOTALLY CONSISTENT WITH BOOK STANNIS' CHARACTER

:agree: I don't get how people can be so outraged about a storyline that may or may not be in an unfinished series. GRRM hasn't finished the books and doesn't have an exact road map for all his plots and many characters. At most, Stannis' decision in this episode let's you know that Stannis will never rule the 7 kingdoms because his decisions, unwavering opinions of what is right, etc. will cost him

[Lyanna Tarly of Horn Hill]

I renounce my allegiance to House Baratheon.

Tullys are where it's at.

iv always been a Tarly gal myself

[WinterPool Stark]

Some people's reactions are so funny. Stannis was never a good guy to begin with. He killed his own brother for no other reason than to win the Iron Throne. Why was that OK for his character, but this burning his own daughter was somehow morally different?

Because he saw what his brother was doing as Treason. You know the punishment for Treason?

Giving up his Heir, the Baratheon heir for what exactly? The man who fed his family leather from old books whilst under siege? Yeah ok...

[jaimereborn]

It is with deep sadness that I must report of the death of a much beloved friend- the HBO Show “Game of Thrones” died earlier this evening after a long and tragic illness after it underwent unsuccessful surgery to have its author removed.

The Show was one week short of its Fifth birthday at the time of its death.

The Show enjoyed exceptional, many would say surprising, health in its first three years of life, with exceptional highs in season two and three when the show followed the books most faithfully. In fact, the closer the show followed the books, the better it was. Sadly, signs of illness began in Season One- strangely- when Drogo needlessly raped Dany Targaryen- a scene totally void in the books. Also, Shea was talking like book-Shea but was in no way the same character- she had a different back-story, seemed wiser, more worldly etc. This lead to a character TALKING like Shea but not ACTING like Shea. Also, D&D’s choice to have Shea played by a life-less mannequin was considered controversial. Season 2 also had strange scenes with unexplained issues involving several characters. Then, in season 3 the removal of Lady Stoneheart, the questionable direction of Stannis Baratheon, and a highly – and many say needless- dip into sexual perversion.

GoT took a turn for the worse in Season 4 when Jaime Lannister – inexplicably- raped Cersei Lannister leading to the show-runners admitting that they DID NOT KNOW WHAT RAPE WAS!

Season Five, though, led to the very drastic decision by the show runners to no longer follow the books- opting to surgically remove George R.R. Martin’s words from the story process, DESPITE the fact that in Season 4- there were whole story lines NOT in the books that made ZERO sense, most notably why Jon Snow went to Craster’s Keep and specifically DID NOT find Bran. Even though Bran – as a cripple being dragged by a Giant and two high-born kids with him, WOULD BE HARD TO FORGET! Turns out- NOBODY REMEMBERED HE WAS FUCKING THERE! Still when Season 4 followed the source material- ie: the Mountain and the Viper- it experienced unparalleled success.

However, Season Five started slow, its episodes long-winded, filled with filler and rarely going anywhere; plots were usually dedicated to strange- some would say convoluted – plot points and needless acrimony. Then, more rapes, especially to Sansa in what many people considered the low point of the show. Medical and Entertainment experts agreed- it was only a matter of time. This was made worse when Gilly was- again- needlessly and pointlessly almost raped. Then, the pointless and random killing of major characters like Barristan Selmy and Mance Ryder.

Then, almost heroically, D&D stopped ripping off George RR Martin and started ripping off Walking Dead and made a very good episode involving zombies attacking people and political intrigue etc. IT would prove to be a final rally for a once great show.

In Week 9, GoT had Arya follow a COMPLETELY UNIMPORTANT CHARACTER AROUND FOR ABOUT HALF A FUCKING HOUR FOR NO FUCKING REASON AT ALL!!!!! Then Mance Tyrell sang (not bad, really); and then we saw MAYBE the worst scene ever in GOT history:

… Jaime.. in Dorne… where he talks to three Dornish characters and they agree to let him and Bronn go… then a … HAND-SLAPPING SCENE!!!!!! WOW!!!!! It takes like 50 minutes of the show to DO SOMETHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EXPLAINED IN TWO SENTENCES!!!!!Then Bronn gets punched…

(RIM SHOT!... loser Theme from Price is Right "Bum-bum-ba-ba-bum... baaaaahhhhhhhhhh....)

Then Stannis…

Stannis Baratheon has- routinely- been the worst-best character the show had: sometimes brave, other times honorable, most of the time reasonable.. but the show wanted a religious zealot who burned people alive… and then they had him act like a fucking idiot most of the time… THEN a few weeks ago he had this awesome scene with Stannis declaring that he loved his daughter because she was a Bratheon!!!! HOORAY!!!!

So the only sensible thing to do after hat was, of course, have Stannis burn that same girl he declared his love for alive at the stake. That makes sense, right?

FUCK NO!!!! NOPE!!! Stannis has to kill his OWN DAUGHTER- HIS ONLY HEIR!!!! BECAUSE…. Because D&D don’t know how to make a show; they don’t understand this show’s characters, how to build story and they don’t know why GoT works. Because they are bad at this job UNLESS they are explicitly following Martin’s words. While sometimes they DID LEGITIMATELY improve the story when they went away from Martin (ie: Viserys, Robert, deep-sixing Tysha, Sansa in WF, Arya+ Tywin) THE SHOW WAS ALMOST ALWAYS WORSE WHEN THEY WENT THEIR OWN WAY (Dany-rape, Cersei rape, Sansa rape, oversimplification of major story-lines etc) and the show was at its best when they strictly followed Martin (Blackwater, Mountain v. Viper; Red Wedding, Purple Wedding)- there can be no debate on that point.

The Show finally succumbed to its own self-inflicted amputation of Martin when Stannis … … … burned his own daughter alive because arbitrary characters are arbitrary. The show breathed its last when a supposedly good and honorable man Stannis …. … … watched his own daughter burn to death by his own orders. Because this show does not know what it was ever doing without following directions.

Witnesses claimed the show seemed to be a live a few minutes later, but sources confirmed that the signs of the show appearing alive were just cheesy Special Effects and a CGI of a dragon. The show was officially declared dead shortly thereafter. Funeral arrangements will take place over the next two seasons with a final burial planed for sometime in 2017.

The Show is survived by its killers, D&D, a host of exceptionally talented actors, and the shitty ones like Shea, a bunch of people who never read the books so don't know what's going on, and only watched the show and are equal parts confused and bored (or fooled into thinking the show is still alive), and a legions of fans who will now wait in stony silence as this funeral procession of the next two seasons to end so we can get a real fucking book with real fucking characters and a real fucking plot.

Donations can be made to any book store selling the real Song of Ice and Fire.

Not … not this.

yawn.

[The Man from Nowhere]

Whether or not the books will burn Shireen, the creators should never be directly spoiling it for fans. They should do there own thing and say nothing so that we can still wonder what will happen in the show and conversely how the book will differ. I feel cheated a little watching the behind the episode. We readers put in a lot of time and love reading and speculating on the books and for it to be casually tossed out there feels wrong.

[Dragon_Rider]

Yeah, right. Stannis will magically fly to the Wall with Littlefinger's teleport device and kill Shireen with his own hands, sounds fucking legit.

Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that the guy who held Storm's End would break up to a few days in a storm? IF, and only IF Stannis burns Shireen (he won't, it will be Melisandre) it will be CLEARLY for the greater good, like delaying the others for a year or something, not to take damn ruined Winterfell.

That makes it any better? It's still a child being burned for some cause. What people are furious is not that Shireen was burned, but that Stannis was responsible. They are crying over Stannis.

[JohnisDead]

Is Shireen really dead, is Mance? One never knows the devious minds of book/show creators!

[Jez Targaryen]

I like GRRM's latest sly dig at GOT:

For all of you who are enjoying OUTLANDER, the marvelous adaptation of Diana Gabaldon's time travel novels that just finished its first season on STARZ... well, the show is terrific, but the books are even better (as is so often the case)

Of course he thinks the books are better, he bloody wrote them!

[Winterfell is Burning]

Stannis Baratheon, the man who held Storm's End for the entire length of a war while living off of rats and horses decides to burn his daughter and heir because a few of his supplies were burnt? Yeah, bullshit. I doubt anyone can say that D&D aren't just out to destroy Stannis' as a character now...

Yep- I want to see some of D&D apologists answer that with a straight face.

D&D: we're not spoiling anything from the books this season.

D&D after tonight: oh no that's right from the books grrm told us that.

Yep.

[Ludo Kressh]

When they showed Shireen playing with the toy stag in front of the brazier I knew something was going to go down...then the conversation between her and Stannis confirmed it. But I not expecting Selyse to freak out over her burning and Stannis' dark stare as she burned sent chills. And those screams...

I shamelessly admit, I geeked out when Drogon torched those harpies and Dany got on his back...I've been waiting for that for 4 and an half seasons.

This had better pay off in a big way, either it be for Stannis or Jon or the Boltons burning in hell, I don't care.

[239JMFL34109]

I think the show made it abundantly clear that there's going to be FTW next episode. We saw how angry the Night's watch are, and well there's Olly agin looking like he's out for blood.

i think he gets a letter from sansa

[Chloe.a.thomson]

To the people saying "but it makes sense Stannis would in the books!", "but he killed Renly!", well, we got it. You didn't understand the books :dunno:

There, take a cookie.

So everyone that disagrees with you didn't understand the books?

I am a Stannis fan. Until I read the final two books I don't know what Stannis would or wouldn't do.

I don't like that ShowStannis burnt Shireen, but I am waiting to see what comes from it.

JonCons Red Beard, I have always enjoyed your posts but I feel like repeatedly telling people who disagree with you, that they didn't understand the books is extremely unfair and unproductive.