[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[Jay92]

That whole Stannis/Mel scene from back in season 2 after Stannis lost finally came true.

"You will betray the man serving you. You will betray your family. You will betray everything you once held dear and it will all be worth it because you are the son of fire. You are the warrior of light."

Still, I am pretty bummed that Stannis really went through with this. Ugh. Well I can't root for show Stannis anymore. Still rooting pretty hard for book Stannis though.

[Alia of the knife]

It's surprising that Stannis didn't berate or blame her for not seeing it. It would have been a good opportunity to expose her 'not so all-powerful' at all and for Stannis to snap out of her influence.

I think the reality is that he likes her bed as much as her visions, but is too rigid to recognize it for what it is. And his vanity in believing her claims about his destiny makes brother Bob look humble.

Robert said he never loved his brothers, could be he was smarter than I gave him credit for.

[The Man from Nowhere]

D and D should take a long hard look at how this season has got a lot wrong and little right. They've proved that without following GRRMs existing literature they are incapable of adding value to the show. Dorne has been destroyed completely this season and the fact that they will be going in mostly blind for the final few seasons worries me.

I think they went into this season feeling invincible and probably over confident. They should try to rediscover the story and realise that it not all about the shocks but about complex and realistic plot developments. Leave the shocks to shows that don't have relevant material and need to generate a viewer base. The end game is about the convergence of all these separately entwined characters and plots and I'm losing faith in their ability to adequately achieve this. Unfortunately with the fact that the books will not be complete before the show is done I'm going to be stuck to watching the show. My worry is that the show will do such a poor job that by the time (sometime around 2030) the final book comes out I will no longer care and will be reading the next best thing.

[Stonehearted Snake]

GRRM said that four characters die in this season that are alive in the books. But he didn't say anything about them surviving in the next book.

Where did he say that? I heard him say characters but not a specific number.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Is there any doubt that the Baratheons are the main human antagonists now? Even the Lannisters are more morally ambiguous.

[hallam]

I'll admit I'm a little worried about D&D's and GRRM's collaborative relationship in the future. I could see Martin getting pissed that D&D blatantly confirmed what is coming in an unreleased book unless for some reason he gave them permission. But why would he share anything else with them? I ask this as a concerned show fan.

You do know that GRRM got his start writing screenplays adapting other people's work?

He knows the score here. He also knows that Season 7 is going to come out long before book 7.

Whoever monitors these boards for D&D (and they will have several people on it) knew that there was going to be a whhhaaaaaaaaaaaa from the Stanissphiles when the burning of Shireen came up. So they made sure to have them confirm that yes, this is how it happens in the books.

If you don't want the books to be spoiled, don't watch the show.

But really, anyone who didn't get that Stannis and Mel are as bad as the White walkers evil hasn't been paying attention. He is utterly unscrupulous and power mad, she is a fanatic of an evil cult.

[The One And Only]

D and D should take a long hard look at how this season has got a lot wrong and little right. They've proved that without following GRRMs existing literature they are incapable of adding value to the show. Dorne has been destroyed completely this season and the fact that they will be going in mostly blind for the final few seasons worries me.

I think they went into this season feeling invincible and probably over confident. They should try to rediscover the story and realise that it not all about the shocks but about complex and realistic plot developments. Leave the shocks to shows that don't have relevant material and need to generate a viewer base. The end game is about the convergence of all these separately entwined characters and plots and I'm losing faith in their ability to adequately achieve this. Unfortunately with the fact that the books will not be complete before the show is done I'm going to be stuck to watching the show. My worry is that the show will do such a poor job that by the time (sometime around 2030) the final book comes out I will no longer care and will be reading the next best thing.

Nah, just butt hurt fans of the books mad that the show is telling the story first.

If D&D didn't say that GRRM will burn Shireen, then all we would be hearing about right now is how the show diverged from the books. Since D&D confirmed that it was GRRM's idea, some fans are now finding a secondary reason to complain about the scene.

I am a firm believer that if the Red Wedding happened on the show before the books, the same people would be complaining about how the show got "a lot wrong".

[Ironkiller]

Is there any doubt that the Baratheons are the main human antagonists now? Even the Lannisters are more morally ambiguous.

In the show? Yes.

In the books? IF Stannis is even involved in Shireen's burning, it would be clearly for the greater good, not "hmm, let me makes things easier for me". So even if that happen there, nope.

[Chloe.a.thomson]

Is it fair to assume Brienne is going to kill Stannis? At this point I am just wondering whether it will be in the next episode or next season.

I suspect that this may happen in 510 and in the latter half of TWOW/ the beginning of ADOS

Dany-I hate that we have people fighting to the death in fighting pits while simultaneously getting hot for daario describing fighting in fighting pits

:lmao: :rofl:

[Cas Stark]

You do know that GRRM got his start writing screenplays adapting other people's work?

He knows the score here. He also knows that Season 7 is going to come out long before book 7.

Whoever monitors these boards for D&D (and they will have several people on it) knew that there was going to be a whhhaaaaaaaaaaaa from the Stanissphiles when the burning of Shireen came up. So they made sure to have them confirm that yes, this is how it happens in the books.

If you don't want the books to be spoiled, don't watch the show.

But really, anyone who didn't get that Stannis and Mel are as bad as the White walkers evil hasn't been paying attention. He is utterly unscrupulous and power mad, she is a fanatic of an evil cult.

Nut much for nuance are you?

[TheReal_Rebel]

I don't think Davos will be supporting Stannis after Shireen's death. There is no way he'll accept it.

I hope he goes to get Rickon.

[The One And Only]

In the show? Yes.

In the books? IF Stannis is even involved in Shireen's burning, it would be clearly for the greater good, not "hmm, let me makes things easier for me". So even if that happen there, nope.

It is for the greater good in the show. They have hammered that point home over and over again. Shireen had to die so Stannis can defeat the White Walkers....

[Ironkiller]

Nah, just butt hurt fans of the books mad that the show is telling the story first.

If D&D didn't say that GRRM will burn Shireen, then all we would be hearing about right now is how the show diverged from the books. Since D&D confirmed that it was GRRM's idea, some fans are now finding a secondary reason to complain about the scene.

I am a firm believer that if the Red Wedding happened on the show before the books, the same people would be complaining about how the show got "a lot wrong".

I never even once complained about changes from the books. I personally enjoyed things like Dany's season 2 and current Sansa's arc in WF, which I think is better than the fake Arya plot in the books.

Please, do not say that when people complain about something they are obviously haters. You are all reading WAY TOO MUCH into D&D statement. They never said that Stannis would be involved in the burning.

[Jay92]

So uhhh Stannis vs Boltons vs Littlefinger? Who do you choose?

[The One And Only]

I don't think Davos will be supporting Stannis after Shireen's death. There is no way he'll accept it.

I hope he goes to get Rickon.

Davos is going to be the Hand of the King.... for King Snow....

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

In the show? Yes.

In the books? IF Stannis is even involved in Shireen's burning, it would be clearly for the greater good, not "hmm, let me makes things easier for me". So even if that happen there, nope.

Doesn't make it any less monstrous, although I do agree that his reasons here are pretty weak.

Fact is, two of the main three characters are Targs, who are in complete opposition to the Baratheons. The other main character(Tyrion) fought the man at the Blackwater, and is now under the service of the Targs. Most Baratheons themselves have been portrayed negatively throughout the history of asoiaf, and to make it worse, they descend from a line of belligerent warmongers.

[PhoenixfromAshes]

I think the reality is that he likes her bed as much as her visions, but is too rigid to recognize it for what it is. And his vanity in believing her claims about his destiny makes brother Bob look humble.

Robert said he never loved his brothers, could be he was smarter than I gave him credit for.

In this case, I have no words to describe Stannis now. If Brienne kills him, I doubt anyone is going to miss him.

[Ironkiller]

It is for the greater good in the show. They have hammered that point home over and over again. Shireen had to die so Stannis can defeat the White Walkers....

Nope. It was clearly stated in the show that Stannis could have retreated back to the Wall. By sacrificing Shireen he is only making things easier for himself. This is not how his character is at all.

[Vee Stark]

It probably does something. In next weeks promo it looks like snow is melting and Stannis army looks ready to fight! To the death!

[Ser Osis of Liver]

This sickened me to the very core, which obviously was D&D's intent. There are certain acts that no character can ever come back from and this is the furthest one I could imagine. I don't want Brienne to be the one who kills him, however. I want it to be Ser Davos. This is the ultimate betrayal to our Onion K'nigg-it, and I would pay money to see him shorten his soon-to-be-ex boss by a head...or maybe something a little more, ahhh, long-lasting.

But in addition to all that's come before on 35 pages of comments, this makes no sense on another front. Stannis is an acknowledged tactician on the battlefield who thinks things out a dozen moves ahead (as does any good field commander). If he is using his brain, he would have to realize that no matter how dire his predicament, once he crosses the line, and if he survives, that he will lose every ounce of support from the North, to start with, and then the rest of Westeros. A Kinslayer is reviled, and I could see the major and minor houses ally against him on those grounds alone.

Would that sacrafice have been as bad if the stakes had been higher? Maybe. But not to get out of the snow and take Winterfell. So let's say he lives and takes Winterfell. Then what? There are no supplies laid in for more than six months (per Roose's monologue last episode), and certainly not enough for all of Stannis' army if they're successful. So then what. March south into the Riverlands, where there are no crops or stores left after the autumnal War of the Five Kings. And again, with news of kinslaying, he would find doors closed to him everywhere.

I'm all for great deaths in furtherance of the story. Ned had to die, Robb, Catelyn and even Talisa had to die. There's no story if they lived. Why this? Why now, when the stakes were so low in the overall scheme of things. A great sacarafice toward what end? GRRM has always said every death must further the story. I simply cannot see how this furthers the story. Not here. Not now.