[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[Lord Wraith]

This is 100% correct. Id suggest anyone who read stannis as a "hero" does not get his character and was reading the books wrong. He had always been at "jeoffery" level in the books too. Atleast jeoffery was his own man and not a puppet .

Yea no. Joffrey was played by many better players and is far worse than Stannis. Not sure what books you are reading. At least Stannis to trying to do the right thing, even if he is wrong.

I think it will be Stannis's wife and the red woman that do it. Stannis himself will not know about it till later.

Agreed.

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

This is just the worst. I've been a long time show defender. The writers are going to have to make changes, the show has its own merits, there's always the books, etc.

But this is just awful. I'm a big time Stannis fan, and that's not based on fanboy silliness, I genuinely like his character and arc. Stannis is a character who has grown throughout the books and swore that if he died taking Winterfell, his men would keep on fighting for his daughter.

What I saw tonight wasn't that character at all. I was telling all my friends "He won't burn Shireen, he won't That's just not Stannis." He can be gruff, he can be an asshole, but even Roose Bolton spared his crazy bastard son. Even Cersei cried when Joffrey died. This on the other hand...

This is just awful. One of my favorite characters has been ruined. And that's not melodramatic hyperbole. I cannot, and will not support a guy who burns little girls, certainly not a guy who burns his own little girl.

What is the point? I really don't get it. Why start making Stannis into a sympathetic character just to snatch it all away? So many show watchers asked what the point was of Stannis. I guess just to burn children. It's honestly pretty disgusting.

I'm curious, people keep saying that Martin is going to have Stannis burn Shireen in TWOW. Is there a link to that info? Has Martin actually said that's whats going to happen? Or have D&D confirmed somewhere that this is going to happen in the books? If that's the case, then what a waste of a character. What's the point?

How so?....Isn't this the same Stannis that murdered his own brother, that burned his brother in law, that tried to kill his nephew Edric Storn?....Remember that this very character betray his other brother, Usurper King Robert, when he flew to Dragonstone and didn't tell him about the relationship between Cersei and Jaime and their bastards kids. Is not like Stannis is above to murder children because that was his mission when he was sent to Dragonstone to kill Prince Viserys and baby Princess Daenerys. Stannis has always been evil in the books and in the shows.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

Well, i'll just let all the Stannis fans spew all the vitriol D&D deserve.

Those who don't get that book-Stannis wouldn't do this in a million years have no idea, and will never have. Not stupid enough to try to get some sense into their heads.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Triplete

[Rhoynar]

I'm done with this show. What a pile of crap.

[RenlyTheOneTrueKing]

D+D don't have all the power in the world.

If something is wrong with it GRRM would stop it.

[The Ghost of Rhaegar]

I think this is an example of the show spoiling the book. Stannous will burn Shireen?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is 100% correct. Id suggest anyone who read stannis as a "hero" does not get his character and was reading the books wrong. He had always been at "jeoffery" level in the books too. Atleast jeoffery was his own man and not a puppet .

"[...]but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI".

George R R Martin.

[Shienberg]

True. Ned would have never stood up for this "man" if he knew what he was truly like. Ned didn't even see the need to kill Dany and wanted no part of it. The Baratheons seem to just shrug that off.

Stannis is one puny man.

Wrong. Ned would have stood up for Stannis because Stannis is Robert's rightful heir. Pure and simple. No question.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

"[...]but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI".

George R R Martin.

Like i said, the apologists are clueless. F*ck this show.

[Scythe42]

...and if the Red Wedding happened in the show before the books ppl. say that D&D screwed it up and GRRM would never kill Robb.

...and if Ned start died in the show before the books ppl say that D&D screwed it up and GRRM would never kill the hero.

...and if whatever way Jon returns next season, ppl. will say that D&D scewed it up and GRRM will never do it that way.

Get over it...

GRRM decided that is what Stannis doing in is desperation being out of options and influenced by religious fanatics. In 2-3 years you can read all the details in the books how it came to be...

The books are overtaken by the show, deal with it.

He sacrified his daughter what he thought would be the greater good, manipulated by two religious fanatics at his side not listening to reason anymore because he wants what is his by right.

And it will thaw a bit, so he sees that his actions were painful but right. He did what he had to do. But in the longer run it won't pay off. Well, he will die next week or early next season anyway, as his story is basically over.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Scythe42

[The Dorne Ultimatum]

People saying "I'm done with this show". Okay. Quit bitching then.

People need to accept that both the books are going to get from the end of ADWD (Point A) to the end of ADOS (Point Z), but how they get from A to Z is going to be different between show and book. Sometimes there will be a massive degree of deviation; other times it will be a true adaptation. But what I excited about is we essentially get two different (to a slight degree) stories from this point onwards. That excites me.

I'm a book reader and some of the changes have bewildered me. Some of the changes have been brilliant and make for a better, more coherent narrative than what GRRM has produced. People are saying "George would never do this to a character" - this is the man who had a child pushed from a window inside eight chapters because he saw two twins having a go on each other; he then killed the main good guy off at the end of the first book; wiped out the rest of the "good" family three quarters of the way through book three; around about the same time as everyone's new favourite character was getting his mind blown and the supposed most powerful character in the entire series was proving he did not, in fact, shit gold. People shouldn't be surprised with what has happened and what will happen. It's amazing the leaps and bounds that fans cling to when they don't want something be true. Until the last two books come out, we'll never be able to know what GRRM would or would not do.

[Brienne the Wench]

So, Shireen definitely hasn't met this fate in the books, right?!

After the episode, David Benioff said something like "When George told us about this, we just thought 'It's so horrible!'" So is he saying that this is something we're gonna see in the future of the books sometime?!

P.S. LOVED this episode! I was kinda going crazy about all of the changes at first, but I've learned to love them. And, of course, what actually does follow along with the books is awesome, too!

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

People saying "I'm done with this show". Okay. Quit bitching then.

In my case, i never said "I would quit the show". I said "fuck it". I'll continue watching and continue bitching as much as i want to.

[Brienne the Wench]

hhhhhmmmm... Very mixed episode for me. Dorne scenes were pretty much useless, and more dumb sandsnake shit. Arya's story was pretty decent but Mace was abit much. They've paced her story horribly this season, showing the most uninteresting bits over and over and then barely focusing on the process a faceless man takes when killing someone? Or her story on the docks? Davos... fuckin' great dude and so underused, I mean he has absolutely nothing to do! Stannis the mannis, well I think I seen this coming, Yeah D&D are not fans. Then again Shireen may go similarly in the novels but damn, Stannis fans I'm sorry. Okay now Dany, I thought it was very well done. Tense and exiting, I've been waiting for her and Drogon to fly off forever! Jon stuff moving' along, looks like they've left the really big stuff for actual finale for once.

By the "really big stuff" do you mean FOR THE WATCH?! Because I don't know if I'm ready for that! Do we think it could happen in the next episode already? That would mean they would have to change the reason for it happening, but that's nothing new...

[Scythe42]

So, Shireen definitely hasn't met this fate in the books, right?!

As the next book is not published yes, no we do not know the exact cirumtances how it happened. We only know now that it will happen as D&D follow the story arc for all major characters as GRRM as told them. Deviations in how it came to be of course as the show has a limited amout of time, but the outcome will be the same...

Edited June 8, 2015 by Scythe42

[Shienberg]

It is with deep sadness that I must report of the death of a much beloved friend- the HBO Show “Game of Thrones” died earlier this evening after a long and tragic illness after it underwent unsuccessful surgery to have its author removed.

The Show was one week short of its Fifth birthday at the time of its death.

The Show enjoyed exceptional, many would say surprising, health in its first three years of life, with exceptional highs in season two and three when the show followed the books most faithfully. In fact, the closer the show followed the books, the better it was. Sadly, signs of illness began in Season One- strangely- when Drogo needlessly raped Dany Targaryen- a scene totally void in the books. Also, Shea was talking like book-Shea but was in no way the same character- she had a different back-story, seemed wiser, more worldly etc. This lead to a character TALKING like Shea but not ACTING like Shea. Also, D&D’s choice to have Shea played by a life-less mannequin was considered controversial. Season 2 also had strange scenes with unexplained issues involving several characters. Then, in season 3 the removal of Lady Stoneheart, the questionable direction of Stannis Baratheon, and a highly – and many say needless- dip into sexual perversion.

GoT took a turn for the worse in Season 4 when Jaime Lannister – inexplicably- raped Cersei Lannister leading to the show-runners admitting that they DID NOT KNOW WHAT RAPE WAS!

Season Five, though, led to the very drastic decision by the show runners to no longer follow the books- opting to surgically remove George R.R. Martin’s words from the story process, DESPITE the fact that in Season 4- there were whole story lines NOT in the books that made ZERO sense, most notably why Jon Snow went to Craster’s Keep and specifically DID NOT find Bran. Even though Bran – as a cripple being dragged by a Giant and two high-born kids with him, WOULD BE HARD TO FORGET! Turns out- NOBODY REMEMBERED HE WAS FUCKING THERE! Still when Season 4 followed the source material- ie: the Mountain and the Viper- it experienced unparalleled success.

However, Season Five started slow, its episodes long-winded, filled with filler and rarely going anywhere; plots were usually dedicated to strange- some would say convoluted – plot points and needless acrimony. Then, more rapes, especially to Sansa in what many people considered the low point of the show. Medical and Entertainment experts agreed- it was only a matter of time. This was made worse when Gilly was- again- needlessly and pointlessly almost raped. Then, the pointless and random killing of major characters like Barristan Selmy and Mance Ryder.

Then, almost heroically, D&D stopped ripping off George RR Martin and started ripping off Walking Dead and made a very good episode involving zombies attacking people and political intrigue etc. IT would prove to be a final rally for a once great show.

In Week 9, GoT had Arya follow a COMPLETELY UNIMPORTANT CHARACTER AROUND FOR ABOUT HALF A FUCKING HOUR FOR NO FUCKING REASON AT ALL!!!!! Then Mance Tyrell sang (not bad, really); and then we saw MAYBE the worst scene ever in GOT history:

… Jaime.. in Dorne… where he talks to three Dornish characters and they agree to let him and Bronn go… then a … HAND-SLAPPING SCENE!!!!!! WOW!!!!! It takes like 50 minutes of the show to DO SOMETHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EXPLAINED IN TWO SENTENCES!!!!!Then Bronn gets punched…

(RIM SHOT!... loser Theme from Price is Right "Bum-bum-ba-ba-bum... baaaaahhhhhhhhhh....)

Then Stannis…

Stannis Baratheon has- routinely- been the worst-best character the show had: sometimes brave, other times honorable, most of the time reasonable.. but the show wanted a religious zealot who burned people alive… and then they had him act like a fucking idiot most of the time… THEN a few weeks ago he had this awesome scene with Stannis declaring that he loved his daughter because she was a Bratheon!!!! HOORAY!!!!

So the only sensible thing to do after hat was, of course, have Stannis burn that same girl he declared his love for alive at the stake. That makes sense, right?

FUCK NO!!!! NOPE!!! Stannis has to kill his OWN DAUGHTER- HIS ONLY HEIR!!!! BECAUSE…. Because D&D don’t know how to make a show; they don’t understand this show’s characters, how to build story and they don’t know why GoT works. Because they are bad at this job UNLESS they are explicitly following Martin’s words. While sometimes they DID LEGITIMATELY improve the story when they went away from Martin (ie: Viserys, Robert, deep-sixing Tysha, Sansa in WF, Arya+ Tywin) THE SHOW WAS ALMOST ALWAYS WORSE WHEN THEY WENT THEIR OWN WAY (Dany-rape, Cersei rape, Sansa rape, oversimplification of major story-lines etc) and the show was at its best when they strictly followed Martin (Blackwater, Mountain v. Viper; Red Wedding, Purple Wedding)- there can be no debate on that point.

The Show finally succumbed to its own self-inflicted amputation of Martin when Stannis … … … burned his own daughter alive because arbitrary characters are arbitrary. The show breathed its last when a supposedly good and honorable man Stannis …. … … watched his own daughter burn to death by his own orders. Because this show does not know what it was ever doing without following directions.

Witnesses claimed the show seemed to be a live a few minutes later, but sources confirmed that the signs of the show appearing alive were just cheesy Special Effects and a CGI of a dragon. The show was officially declared dead shortly thereafter. Funeral arrangements will take place over the next two seasons with a final burial planed for sometime in 2017.

The Show is survived by its killers, D&D, a host of exceptionally talented actors, and the shitty ones like Shea, a bunch of people who never read the books so don't know what's going on, and only watched the show and are equal parts confused and bored (or fooled into thinking the show is still alive), and a legions of fans who will now wait in stony silence as this funeral procession of the next two seasons to end so we can get a real fucking book with real fucking characters and a real fucking plot.

Donations can be made to any book store selling the real Song of Ice and Fire.

Not … not this.

You are a joke and you have way to much time on your hands. I can't imagine having such a pointless life that I would invest so much time in showing up here every week to spew my pointless and overly dramatic assessment of something I claim to hate.

Books are different medium than television. Get over it. GOT is no more perfect than any other show and far less flawed than most. It is the third most popular thing on cable besides Walking Dead and Monday night football. It is not dying any time soon despite your childish attempt to be coy by documenting the death of your friend. If you don't like the show then stop watching. I seriously doubt you are a professional writer or producer and I am sure nobody is offering you millions of dollars to produce your perfect vision of an adaptation of such massive work. The show has streamlined some things effectively and made questionable choices in other places. But if you hate it so much, stop trying to get attention and just stop. Every week? Don't you have something better to do?

Go away with this nonsense. Seriously.

[draft0]

D&D pretty much confirmed Stannicide in TWOW.

I don't understand why people are so upset at Stannis, honestly. This is the same fanbase that thinks Jaime was justified in throwing Bran out a window. Bran! A major POV character. And Jaime was only trying to save Cersei and himself. Stannis is doing it (at least in his own mind) for the good of the realm.

[TheLeviathan73]

"[...]but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI".

George R R Martin.

George has missed that memo for awhile.

In any case, it's precisely that righteous belief in himself that has compelled him to make all sorts of morally horrifying choices. He has to make these sacrifices to fulfill his destiny as the true king and savior of Westeros. That's what he has always believed and when you couple it with a profound utilitarian approach to life saving and the pervasive influence of a religious zealot that serves as one his primary advisors....you get shit like this.

Like it or not, this is coming.

[Adeimantus]

Double post

Edited June 8, 2015 by Adeimantus

[Adeimantus]

"[...]but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI".

George R R Martin.

Yeah, Stannis isn't evil in himself. He believes it is his duty to save the realm, and he is utterly focused on that single endeavor, no matter the cost. Does anyone think Westeros stands a chance if the Boltons are still ruling the North? No, they must be displaced, or the continent is doomed. Thus, the decisions he makes aren't just for his own sake but for everyone's sake.

The key phrase, though, is "no matter the cost." I might be paraphrasing, but Ned Stark once told Jon Snow that Stannis was "just, but cold." Davos is a living example of this treatment: He was knighted for saving Stannis under siege during Robert's Rebellion but lost three fingers for his previous career smuggling. In Stannis's mind, justice still needed to be served for past crimes, with no pardon given even under the extraordinary circumstances. Stannis is a righteous man, but one who is rigid in his views on justice and duty. Any veering away from the narrow path he has set for himself would not simply be adapting to specific circumstances while maintaining an overall moral framework (like for your average righteous person). It would in fact be a gross violation of his integrity. The character arc of Stannis is meant to show what happens to a righteous man who is rigid in his thinking, with the contamination of religious fanaticism added in. Like I said, he is not an evil man, but his strict sense of duty can lead him to some evil acts in the name of the greater good, the ends justifying the means. The intention is for readers/viewers to sympathize with his sense of justice and (specific to the storyline) his appreciation for the only war that really matters, while also being disturbed by some of the choices he makes to fulfill these ends. It's consistent with Martin's message of good people being capable of horrific things. There are people like this in the real world, though most don't wield the kind of power that Stannis does in ASOIAF/GoT.

I don't think the show did enough to really establish the dire straits his army was in or his own moral quandary. They were on the verge of total defeat without even going into battle against the Boltons. The situation was desperate, and Stannis was running out of options. They showed his conflict between his love for his daughter and his devotion to his duty to save the realm, but it needed a lot more development. I don't think they really gave it enough screen time for the decision be fully believable (just as I didn't find Selyse's last-moment change of heart to be that believable). His decision to burn Shireen for the greater good fits in the long-term arc of his character, but he didn't quite feel "there" yet at this point in that arc.