[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[Brienne the Wench]

I think Shireen is likely to burn in the books. However, the circumstances are going to be much different and they situation has been set up a lot more desperately in the books.

I dont hate Stannis for doing it. End of day, his made the greatest sacrifice in order to save his army. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He showed that he is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the realm.

I hated the way the show handled it.

Firstly, the circumstances werent dire enough. Just two episodes ago we saw how much Stannis cares for his daughter. How much he went through to save her and what he is willing to do for her.

I find it hard to believe, a man as stern as Stannis would burn his daughter for Lord of Light just like that. Stannis, the ultimate stubborn ass, burnt his daughter just cause.

Why was Selsye crying? Why did she need to be restrained? She has been saying she needs to be burned since Season 2, theyve shown how heartless she is and how she thinks her daughter is a heathen. She has no compassion, she is a lot worse than Stannis. Dont make her out to be the poor mother.

They didnt show Mel's manipulation at all this episode which is a HUGE part of why Selsye wants to burn her.

They made this Stannis' decision. They made Stannis the criminal. They made Stannis into the most hated man in Westeros. When in reality, he is a desperate man with an army dieing like ice cubes around him with his evil wife and mistress shaking their fists yelling BURN THE GIRL! All this, exactly 10 episodes after he was the greatest man in the realm.

Well it was good while it lasted. Heres a shot of Dany riding off like the conquering hero. The conqueror of jack and shit whilst Aegon Targaryen is battering down the doors to Storm's End.

But hey, JORAHS BACK IN THE FRIENDZONE BABY!

I actually think it was really important for us to be focused on Stannis in this whole situation. It's obvious that Selyse and Melisandre were influencing him, but they were not the important factors here - this could never have gone down without Stannis' approval and acceptance, so the ladies essentially didn't matter in the whole thing. Focusing on Stannis was what was significant, because it was his decision, and we had to feel that.

Drogon's flight was really emotional but the whole Shireen affair... I don't know what to think. I really liked Stannis so far but that was horrible.

However, my main complaint with the episode is Jon's return. He could have mentioned to Sam or Thorne that he had just looked Death right in the eyes or something. I half expected the episode to begin with Jon giving a speech about what he had seen at Hardhome, instead... nothing. There was no follow up for awesomeness that was episode 8. Right now it looks like the battle of Hardhome was just there to fill up the "big fighting scenes" quota for season 5.

Oh, I think it's gonna play a big part! It's gonna be his whole defense about why they need to work together, and why the wildlings need to be involved. He's been talking and talking about a common enemy, and now he has seen and fought and lost many to them! This isn't just gonna be background or filler, I think it's gonna be the basis for his arguments.

From "The Americans" season 3: “That’s what evil people tell themselves, when they do evil things.”

PERFECTION! His act was still evil, and the fact that he did it "for the realm" does not take away from the fact that he was willing to watch (and listen to) his daughter burning to death before his eyes without even blinking an eye. There is some evil inside of him, whatever his cause is.

[robasp2]

I just had to share this awesome comment from GoT facebook page

Bill Clark

So reading through some comments this morning, I have to say Im laughing at the number of people pissed that the show would kill (burn to death) a child. I mean PISSED. Really upset. A number of comments saying "I'm cancelling HBO tomorrow."(Sure you are) "HBO crossed the line with this episode." etc...

What I dont get is that you can watch the news and hear about children getting killed. You see the mystery shows on Dateline or whatever in which children die, but apparently, when children die in the context of fiction, that's what sets you off? Its a shame that the inspired and strong emotion that these stories and scenes generate are what makes it a great show, and yet some people have to see past that and just have to find something to be offended about.

Like · 2,999

Edited June 8, 2015 by robasp2

[Katjushka]

I understand the outrage and was thoroughly disappointed for killing off sweet Shireen, but that only makes Stannis more likely to emerge as a winner of the iron throne eventually (if he doesn't die next Sunday). Regardless of how the sacrifice will proceed in the books, the plan is to portray Shireen as Nissa Nissa in a very warped, fucked up way. She has to die for AA to be reborn (somehow linked to Jon's resurrection)

Interesting, I see this in the exact opposite way. I see this as a strong indication that Stannis will fall relatively soon, sure there's some magic in Mel and she can do certain things but I don't think Stannis is AA so Shireen was burned only so that Stannis can sometime farely soon realize that Mel was wrong and he was superstupid to believe in her and to make the sacrifices he made.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

I don't understand why everyone is raging about Stannis allowing Shireen to burn. Most book readers knew it was going to happen in book 6. The question is, will his men desert him now that he showed them he's a monster?

[Katjushka]

I just had to share this awesome comment from GoT facebook page

Bill Clark

So reading through some comments this morning, I have to say Im laughing at the number of people pissed that the show would kill (burn to death) a child. I mean PISSED. Really upset. A number of comments saying "I'm cancelling HBO tomorrow."(Sure you are) "HBO crossed the line with this episode." etc...

What I dont get is that you can watch the news and hear about children getting killed. You see the mystery shows on Dateline or whatever in which children die, but apparently, when children die in the context of fiction, that's what sets you off? Its a shame that the inspired and strong emotion that these stories and scenes generate are what makes it a great show, and yet some people have to see past that and just have to find something to be offended about.

Like · 2,999

Wow, that's spot on. Also, she is not the first child to be burned in this show so I'm really not getting the rage. Same goes for Trants brothelscene, sure it's horrible but it's fiction, it's not really happening and no little girls were really harmed.. There are many shows and movies that illustrate horrific crimes and that's fine, that's what fiction is there for really - to tell stories that could or could not happen in real life.

[ColdhandsIsEinhorn]

And that's the point. It's one think that have dark/horrible crap happen to people. It's another thing to have nothing but unrelenting misery all the time. NOTHING good EVER happens to ANYONE who isn't evil or vile. Especially since the show apparently has forgotten how to execute said scenes in believable/convincing manners. They failed with Sansa, they've repeatedly failed with the Dorne, and they failed with this as well. So they cannot even execute their horrible crap WELL, which is even worse.

The show's failures I'll grant you, but are you not following Dany's plot? Did you miss that whole "break the wheel" thing? Assuming you read the book, you also have that septon's speech, and in the show we have the High Sparrow explicitly talking about overthrowing the established order. Do you see what's going on here? Add in book Ellaria's speech about the endless cycle of revenge, Tyrion's thoughts on the same subject, and are we beginning to sense a theme? It's a stagnant, hyper-corrupt, hyper-violent world when we are introduced to it, and the whole series is about how it can either change or die.

[Cas Stark]

I don't understand why everyone is raging about Stannis allowing Shireen to burn. Most book readers knew it was going to happen in book 6. The question is, will his men desert him now that he showed them he's a monster?

Did they? I didn't. I don't. Shireen being killed as a sacrifice and Stannis doing it are two different things. I can't imagine how or why the author would logistically work Stannis burning Shireen in the books, since he's somewhere else and already has two people with King's blood, Asha and Theon...

Mel and Seylse burning Shireen at the wall, that's a different thing.

[Tony Inchpractice]

Following Series 5 Episode 9 of Game of Thrones, HBO now face multiple lawsuits from House Baratheon and House Trant for 'character defamation'.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Tony Inchpractice

[Eddard the Builder]

Never thought I'd root for littlefinger, but yeah I am so ready for the Knights of the Vale to slice and dice whoever wins winterfell. Stannis, Roose, Ramsay, they can all rot in the Seven Hells together.

[Adam with one D]

Did they? I didn't. I don't. Shireen being killed as a sacrifice and Stannis doing it are two different things. I can't imagine how or why the author would logistically work Stannis burning Shireen in the books, since he's somewhere else and already has two people with King's blood, Asha and Theon...

Mel and Seylse burning Shireen at the wall, that's a different thing.

I've been going back and forth on whether Stannis would burn her...and it's not a stretch in extreme circumstances, but I also think'Stan the Man would never kill his daughter'

Bottom line-I'm very confused and I don't like it.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Adam with one D

[Visceral Varys]

I'm going to disagree with you here. The show has a limited casting budget, so they couldn't afford to hire many actors for Meereenese characters. [/qoute]

I just wanted to give you a shout-out for your well thought and interesting post about your impressions of Hizdhor. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

[Wench of Aggamato]

LOL at the fandom right now.

1. Certain fans: "STANNIS BURNING SHIREEN IS OFF-BOOK TRASH, HOW DARE D&D, THEY HAVE FUNDAMENTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD BOOK STANNIS' CHARACTER, GRRM WOULD NEVAH"

2. D&D: "George told us this happens."

3. Certain fans:

A. D&D ARE FILTHY LIARS, GRRM WOULD NEVAH, or

B. If GRRM does it, it will be SUPER AMAZING and WILL TOTALLY MAKE SENSE and WILL BE TOTALLY CONSISTENT WITH BOOK STANNIS' CHARACTER

[dbunting]

All of this outrage, and if Stannis sacrifices Shireen in the next book...Oh, well GRRM did it properly and now it makes sense, if DD had just done this it would be ok. blah blah blah

[Wench of Aggamato]

I just had to share this awesome comment from GoT facebook pageBill Clark

So reading through some comments this morning, I have to say Im laughing at the number of people pissed that the show would kill (burn to death) a child. I mean PISSED. Really upset. A number of comments saying "I'm cancelling HBO tomorrow."(Sure you are) "HBO crossed the line with this episode." etc...

What I dont get is that you can watch the news and hear about children getting killed. You see the mystery shows on Dateline or whatever in which children die, but apparently, when children die in the context of fiction, that's what sets you off? Its a shame that the inspired and strong emotion that these stories and scenes generate are what makes it a great show, and yet some people have to see past that and just have to find something to be offended about.Like · 2,999

[ColdhandsIsEinhorn]

Oh, I think it's gonna play a big part! It's gonna be his whole defense about why they need to work together, and why the wildlings need to be involved. He's been talking and talking about a common enemy, and now he has seen and fought and lost many to them! This isn't just gonna be background or filler, I think it's gonna be the basis for his arguments.

And this is why I think if we get the obvious Olly scene it will only be a false alarm for the FTW moment, and that the big one will come next season.

I'm getting all worked up with predictions, like Stannis losing at Winterfell and Mel lives her vision but "walks the walls of Winterfell" as a prisoner, and is caught up in Sansa's escape, maybe returning to the Wall with Sansa and that provides the background for Jon vs Ramsay and the Watch turning on him. But I also think It's no coincidence that Brienne is finding herself in roughly the same place as Stannis, so maybe he wins but Brienne kills him... I don't know, I'n getting carried away.

But I think we're set up for next season being:

Jon's struggle to assimilate the Wildlings and keep his brothers on board, with the Bolton threat hanging over their heads - and the more I think about that the more I think Stannis has to lose at Winterfell

Dany not returning and the Yunkish getting ready to move in while Tyrion - in the role of Selmy - tries to hold her throne. I can see someone in this context playing the role of Quentin by releasing the dragons, but doing it thinking they're helping Tyrion. Maybe the Iron Born come back into it for this too.

More filler in KL as Cersei seethes and Kevin tries to deal with the faith and the Dornish.

[Ellfoy]

Well I'm not even going to address the "Stannis ordered Shireen to be burned" because if so, I think I'm going to burn something aswell... Except, what are they going to use the Shireen sacrifice for at this point of the story???

I actually laughed at the Dorne scenes. I don't really know if this is a positive or negative reaction.

On the positive note, I liked the fighting pit scene, even if the flying scene was disappointing (laked passion). I'm happy that they showed that Hizdar may be not likeable but was still innocent.

But what I really come to say is that The widlings passing through the Wall was my favorite scene in the books and I've been waiting for years to see that scene on TV...and they completly butchered it (it lasted what ? 1 minute ? A highly symbolic and very important scene !).

First: Being on the wrong side of the Wall, do they think that the tv-watchers are that stupid to not notice?

Second: Hostages ? No, let's pretend that Jon Snow is just a noble guy with a "good heart that will get us all killed", right ?

Third: Widlings passed with absolutly no comment to Jon. Where the hell is Ghost ? (Again !)

Last but not least: another Olly shot ? WE GET IT ! He's going to stab him ! Are they going to ruin every scene with a shot of this kid ??

I'm completly depressed.

#FuckHBO

[-Ghost-]

So is the Sons of th Harpy the slaves or what? Cause they were killing all the people wearing tokars.

[GeorgeIAF]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWFpo37qAU

The comments here are absolute gold :))))

"The Whitewalkers should win at this point, fuck the North (maybe save Jon, okay)."

I fear for this poor soul =))

Edited June 8, 2015 by GeorgeIAF

[ColdhandsIsEinhorn]

So is the Sons of th Harpy the slaves or what? Cause they were killing all the people wearing tokars.

I thought that was strange at first too, and then they killed Hizdahr, and I realized that it was an expression of their rejection of Hizdahr's Peace and their willingness to kill anyone who tries to assimilate to the new order.

I don't think that demonstrates Hizdahr's innocence regarding the Harpies, though. The show left out the part about Hizdahr Peace, but I think it's clear that he had some affiliation with the Harpies, and perhaps underestimated his influence with them. The poisoned locusts may well have been intended for him. If they got Dany, too, great, but otherwise they'd have poisoned Hizdahr to show her that they will never make peace with her. I think she realizes this in the book when she wonders if Hizdahr will be able to hold the throne in her absence, and she seemed to have come to terms with her Mad King side and found a new sense of purpose and direction. I think the show managed to present this without all the confusing intrigue, the 90 days or whatever it was, the Green Grace, and all the things that people bitched about from the book.

[hallam]

That's because he's touchy about his status. It humiliates him. I doubt that he cares how Jon or any other bastard feels. In fact, I think it's likely he would try to rub Jon's face in his bastardy, now when Ramsay himself is a Bolton and the Lord of Winterfell.

I really don't think Thorne has anything to do with it. How would he know about the wildling women and Mance, how would he know about Reek? If anybody other than Ramsay wrote it, it was Mance.

I think it was most likely Stannis. He is the only person who really gains by having the NW and Wilding host descend on Winterfell. But Thorne is a possibility.