[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[NanNymeria]

Don't you think there is some kind of magic behind killing Shireen? Maybe this is them showing the magic Mel did with Mance? Or maybe I just try to find some answers, because it was sudden as hell.. Actually, I think it was a good episode. Yes, I liked the book version better (the whole dragon scene gave me the strangest goosebumps I have ever had, this beast so wild, it felt real, but in the show it was like "good guy Drogon saving the day"), but considering it all, it is hard to put something like this on TV, and they certainly get so much attention with it. It all makes it good.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'm another one who is now officially cheering for Ramsay against TV!Stannis.

Leaving aside questions of character assassination, and the sheer lack of logic involved, how the hell does TV!Stannis expect anyone to fight for him after that? Were I in Stannis' army, I'd grab some horse meat and do a runner for Castle Black (taking the black if necessary).

[RedShirt47]

I just hope we get a worthy pay-off from this sacrifice. There needs to be some awesomeness in the finale to come of this.

[ColdhandsIsEinhorn]

Pretty much all of the recurring/"notable" female characters have suffered immensely by death or sexual violence or mutilation, or have been sexualized, except for Arya. Correct? I can't think of anyone else.

Is there a character that hasn't suffered immensely by death or sexual violence or mutilation, male or female? Seriously, why don't people understand that GRRM has presented us with a world that is rotten to the core, and a group of characters who may succeed in changing it?

It's not a mirror to our world, its a mirror to the WORST of our world. Never mind that it's also peppered with elements of the best and some hope for a measure of progress, which is what we have read 5 books and are eagerly awaiting a 6th to root for. Fucking idiots and their addiction to self righteousness,

[Fonsito0205]

I think it's fair to say there has been enough discusion about Stanis/Danny scenes and the lack of substance in all of the other scenes.... My question is where did GRRM say that 4 characters die in the show that do not die in the books (specifically the number)? Are those 4 Hizdar, Selmy, Shireen, and Mance? Is Hizdar definitely going to be dead? Is he too minor a character to count? Does anyone think that anyone else can be included on this list or taken off?

[ColdhandsIsEinhorn]

I'm another one who is now officially cheering for Ramsay against TV!Stannis.

Leaving aside questions of character assassination, and the sheer lack of logic involved, how the hell does TV!Stannis expect anyone to fight for him after that? Were I in Stannis' army, I'd grab some horse meat and do a runner for Castle Black (taking the black if necessary).

You're now rooting for a guy who flays and castrates people for fun, hunts women for sport before RAPING THEIR CORPSES, and is as prolific a psychological torturer as a physical one, over a guy who made a difficult decision to sacrifice a loved one to save the realm from an existential threat?

I see that you have 10k+ posts. Were they all knee-jerk reactions?

[hallam]

I just hope we get a worthy pay-off from this sacrifice. There needs to be some awesomeness in the finale to come of this.

Payoff, what could be better than the sweet nectar of the tears of Stannis-lovers?

Stannis has failed Chris Rock parenting 101: He didn't keep his daughter off the pole.

[Arya442]

No, I'm not rooting for Ramsay. That's another problem with the Stannis thing, it completely kills ANY interest that I had in this conflict. Now, it's just two sides led by despicable people fight each other, and I don't care who wins. Heck the best thing would probably be for Jon and Davos to kill them ALL, that'd at least be cathartic.

[Greg B]

No, I'm not rooting for Ramsay. That's another problem with the Stannis thing, it completely kills ANY interest that I had in this conflict. Now, it's just two sides led by despicable people fight each other, and I don't care who wins. Heck the best thing would probably be for Jon and Davos to kill them ALL, that'd at least be cathartic.

So it makes no difference whether Sansa reclaims Winterfell or continues to be Bolton's rape-toy? It's all the same to you?

[Cas Stark]

So it makes no difference whether Sansa reclaims Winterfell or continues to be Bolton's rape-toy? It's all the same to you?

At least the Boltons aren't going to burn her alive, LOL, at this point, Stannis is just as dangerous as the Boltons. Flaying or burning, you're dead either way.

There is nobody to root for in the Battle of Winterfell, both sides are now black hats.

[Ser Osis]

Soooooo, Aryas arc.

Does Trant know who Arya is? Or, does she have her first stalker?

I couldn't tell from his look.

And yeah, I also think Jaqen will creep on her eventually.

I think she looks familiar to him, but he can't figure out why.

When people see someone they recognize outside of where they would expect to, they are confused and not sure where they recognize the person from. Since Trant is across the narrow sea and looking at someone he didn't really know all that well, (for all we know, the time when he came to capture Arya from her "dancing lesson" may have been the only time he really saw her in KL) it makes sense that he would look at her and wonder why she looks familiar.

As far as he knows, Arya Stark died with the rest of the Starks after Ned's arrest. He certainly would never expect to see her in Braavos.

[RhaenysBee]

At least the Boltons aren't going to burn her alive, LOL, at this point, Stannis is just as dangerous as the Boltons. Flaying or burning, you're dead either way.

There is nobody to root for in the Battle of Winterfell, both sides are now black hats.

Was there a point where Stannis wasn't as dangerous as the Boltons?

[Ross2013]

That is a good point about Stannis that people are definitely missing. Also the fact that he is the only contender whose goal is to unite the realm in order to deal with an existential threat, as opposed to greed, ego, ambition, etc.

But I also think people are forgetting how little they liked Stannis before he showed up at the Wall. He wasn't a good guy, and the only good will generated on his behalf was by virtue of Davos. Then he saves the day at the Wall, treats Jon Snow with respect, pulls a rabbit out of his hat with the mountain clans, and, with Robb gone and Dany doing God-knows-what, there being no one else to really root for, he sort of won people over.

The sacrifice of Shireen is totally consistent with his character. They did his character a disservice when they called it ambition, but he explained his reasoning to Davos when talking about Edric, and he explained it in the show to Shireen when he said there was no choice to be made, he's been charged with a duty whether he likes it or not and if he doesn't fulfill that duty the entire realm suffers.

That said, I think criticisms of how the show presented it and how it presents Stannis in general are totally valid. Especially the fact that, as an earlier post mentioned, Mel was promising him a DRAGON for burning Edric, and all he gets from his own daughter is a thaw? Maybe there's a plot purpose to that, that no dragon waking is what will cause Mel to doubt herself and start wondering about Jon, so I'll bear with them on that one.

But I still see no way that Stannis actually burns Shireen in the book. People are forgetting about Patchface.

....

What I like about Book Stannis is that he can be different things to different people. He might be like you describe, or he could just as easily be bloodthirsty, evil and power hungry willing to stop at absolutely nothing to obtain the throne. There is ample evidence of both characterizations (I really put no stock in what Stannis tells other people about his motivations...as we know, most people lie in ASOIF). So its hard for me to draw a conclusion on whether Book Stannis would burn Shireen. He certainly has burned a lot of people in the books, and doesn't let "family" get in the way.

As for TV Stannis, D&D have portrayed him as pretty evil from day 1.

[Arya442]

Yeah, in the books where's he and actual interesting character. Flawed but fair. But this is far too subtle, better to make him a religious nutcase.

[Fragile Bird]

You're now rooting for a guy who flays and castrates people for fun, hunts women for sport before RAPING THEIR CORPSES, and is as prolific a psychological torturer as a physical one, over a guy who made a difficult decision to sacrifice a loved one to save the realm from an existential threat?

I see that you have 10k+ posts. Were they all knee-jerk reactions?

Hey hey hey - that's a silly thing to say. People have been invested in Stannis, have seen the rightness of his claim. The death of Renly was more of a holy sh*t moment, showing the evil that is out there in the world, and not IMO as bad as, say, the Red Wedding, where thousands were betrayed and killed.

But showing him first as a loving father and then as someone who can commit filicide like this surely takes it to another level. Not a 'knee-jerk' reaction.

Ramsay is psychotic. He has an excuse. Stannis surely is what we call a sane man, isn't he?

[Arya442]

Yeah, in the books where's he and actual interesting character. Flawed but fair. But this is far too subtle, better to make him a religious nutcase.

So it makes no difference whether Sansa reclaims Winterfell or continues to be Bolton's rape-toy? It's all the same to you?

The writer's already lost me on that one with no nonsensical her even being there in the first place continues to be. And if the Bolton's are dead, and Stannis is dead, then she can reclaim what is rightfully hers.

[Grail King]

I'm another one who is now officially cheering for Ramsay against TV!Stannis.

Leaving aside questions of character assassination, and the sheer lack of logic involved, how the hell does TV!Stannis expect anyone to fight for him after that? Were I in Stannis' army, I'd grab some horse meat and do a runner for Castle Black (taking the black if necessary).

Not me, hell as bad as he is, LF be better than Ramsey, and I want Sansa to kill his ass ( both actually).

[Cas Stark]

Was there a point where Stannis wasn't as dangerous as the Boltons?

Up until he randomly burned his daughter alive because he was stuck in the snow for an hour? LOL.

[Khal Boner]

Yeah, in the books where's he and actual interesting character. Flawed but fair. But this is far too subtle, better to make him a religious nutcase.

He burns people in the books as well.

[Hol Horse]

Ramsay's 20-man stealth squad was pretty hilarious. I wonder how many fans Stannis lost after this episode. The Trant-Arya thing was a bit too convenient for my taste, but it's hardly surprising. Uhhh... What else... The SotH stabbing random people was just wonky. Actually kind of impressed they made TV-Mereen an even bigger shithole than book-Mereen. Can't wait to see how her advisers survive without her and her dragon, let alone rule.