[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[Facebookless Man]

They're being fed human beings, remember?

[Ghosteline]

They're being fed human beings, remember?

Good, just wondering if it's on a daily basis on regular hours. I'm worried about their wellbeing.

About Shireen. If she was sacrificed to fulfill the AA prophecy and please r'hllor, what would the reaction be when Melisandre realises Stannis is not the AA and sacrificing Shireen was useless. I don't see Melisande/Stannis bond last very long.

[Woman of War]

Is there another site where rational fans of the books and show can discuss same without devolving into a D&D hate fest and whinefest about show spoiling books that probably won't even be finished?

Seriously. I used to love this site, but it's tit-for-tat with some of the same repetitive characters calling D&D pervs, idiots, etc. etc. etc. It's gotten personal against them, too, and it's sick.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/06/07/game-of-thrones-season-5-episode-9-review-the-dance-of-dragons/

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/game-of-thrones-recap-s05e09/

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/game-thrones-experts-dance-dragons-220516

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/recaps/game-of-thrones-recap-how-to-train-your-dragon-20150607

Charlie Jane Anders, io9

http://www.ew.com/recap/game-of-thrones-recap

Sarah Hughes, The Guardian

Neil Miller, Film School Rejects

Eric Dodds, Time

Elio Garcia, Westeros.org

Scott Meslow, The Week

David Crow, Den of Geek

Edited June 9, 2015 by Woman of War

[Yela]

Shireen would've been a great Queen/Ruler. She's young but not as ignorant and naive as Sansa was(knows the world isn't all unicorns and rainbows), not as warfreak as Arya is, is nice and has potential to be a great leader like Jon/Dany. As wise as Bran. As honorable as Ned(I imagine she won't do stupid things growing up) Only thing missing is she's not a master manipulator. But she doesn't need to be one to be a great ruler.

Imagine if she's in Sansa's position and was the one who got to "learn" and "experience" all the things you need in Kings Landing(but not dying in the process of course like Sansa). She would've done great with all the things she's learned in person + all the stuff she reads.

But of course ASOIAF isn't perfect so it's only fitting that the ones who will live by the end of this all are the ones who aren't perfect either.

[JSPR_G]

Sorry if this is already discussed, but I don't have time to read all the post:

I noticed the SotH killed a lot of masters and I didn't see any former slaves getting killed. Isn't this quite the contrary of what we should expect? Or do they kill them because they don't oppose Daenerys?

I was surprised to see Hizdahr killed off, especially after his 'just making sure everything is in order'. Let's hope we get to know more about the SotH next episode or next season.

I always thought that greyscale is only contagious when directly in contact with the greyscaled area, but they really focussed on Dany taking Jorah's hand and taking Missandei's hand...

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Oops first post, sorry...

What I wanted to say, is how disenchanted I am with being spoon fed the plot "twists". This is the first season we have all had to basically watch as Unsullied, and I'd be ok with all the shock factor craziness if it were Actually shocking. The previously on segments destroy most of the possible shock value, not to mention the random name drops and referencing in episode. We all knew Shireen was dying, as much as we railed against, because of all the initial subtlety of the lead-up being referenced again, and again, and again. Same with Jorah and greyscale. Same with upcoming Stannis/Brienne face-off.

Stop watching previously on segments.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Further thought:

- Did the show ever establish that Stannis cannot give more of himself for Mel's spells without dying? If they didn't, one could easily forgive a non-book reader for wondering why he can't make another couple Shadows instead of burning his only daughter.

- My original post was written before I'd seen the "Inside the Episode." Now that I've seen it: all they said was that "George told us about this." "This" is quite a vague term. Not that I don't believe that GRRM told them that Shireen burns (though it's possible he was only telling them about something he had once considered), but simple geography will keep that death from playing out the same way in the novels. Stannis could send word back to the Wall to burn Shireen; or Mel and Selyse could do it on their own, without Stannis's approval, to try and revive the supposedly dead Stannis; or Mel could do it without either parents' blessing, to save Stannis or Jon; or the wildlings who have embraced the red god might burn Shireen, with or without Mel, to save Jon, or stop the Others, or just to get rid of the "unclean" presence.

The point is, the circumstances will certainly be different, and I'm reasonably confident the writing will be better.

- Some people don't seem to understand the criticism of the Shireen storyline, or at least not some of it, so I will try to illustrate: I am bothered - horrified - by the thought of Arya losing her identity as Arya and becoming a faceless assassin for a death cult. That remains a very real possibility for her story. But if that happens, I will be horrified and disappointed in the character, because the writing has been so good, and Arya's development so believable, that such as shift would come off as a real decision by a fully fleshed-out character. Burning Shireen is horrifying, but it isn't believable or effective as storytelling, because it was so poorly handled (IMO) almost from the b.

It was actually established in season 3 that Stannis was too weak to make anymore babies. Mel said his "fires burned too low". That was why she had to get Gendry.

[Juan_Snow]

This. Such an obvious plot hole. Doesn't make any sense.

There are lots of ways it could make sense if we just let it play out.

For example if Trystane goes to Kings Landing and assassinates Tommen, his betrothed becomes queen. He then marries her and becomes King through marriage.

[Sir Bronn]

D&D ruined Barristan storyline and made him not such a big badass as in the novels

I have a question.How the hell so many sons of harpy suddenly appeared between the crowd???People were in panic ,after we saw them on the screem,so they couldn't just sit next to them in those masks.

2 sons of harpy can take down one unsulied (not from behind) wtf????!

Edited June 9, 2015 by Sir Bronn

[Bud RR Martin]

There is too much uproar about this Stannis stuff. I was not shocked at all. I am not upset about the act, but the flimsy reason for the sacrifice. We all knew it was coming. I am confident GRRM will make it more necessary and interesting than the show runners.

I've always believed one family in the story will be the Reynes of Castamere. The Starks were on their way, and the Lannisters seem likely at times, but I believe the killing of Shireen means the Baratheons will be eliminated by the story's end.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Bud RR Martin

[Consigliere]

With 55 pages of discussion, and the search function not working, forgive me if it has already been asked, but did Mace Tyrell really talk about Maegor III? Where did the show come up with that?

Yes he did. Something about Maegor III wanting to outlaw usury. The show made that up since we know that there was no Maegor III in the published material.

And with his greyscale, why on earth was Jorah holding Dany's hand? Didn't he fear he'd make her sick? Or does the show mean to establish you need to touch the infected part to catch the illness yourself?

Perhaps, but then again, who knows? It could mean something or nothing. The show is not exactly consistent with their narrative.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Sorry if this is already discussed, but I don't have time to read all the post:

I noticed the SotH killed a lot of masters and I didn't see any former slaves getting killed. Isn't this quite the contrary of what we should expect? Or do they kill them because they don't oppose Daenerys?

I was surprised to see Hizdahr killed off, especially after his 'just making sure everything is in order'. Let's hope we get to know more about the SotH next episode or next season.

I always thought that greyscale is only contagious when directly in contact with the greyscaled area, but they really focussed on Dany taking Jorah's hand and taking Missandei's hand...

I have no idea what the SotH wanted. Presumably they stopped attacking due to Dany's engagement to Hizdahr and the fighting pits being reopened...But then they killed Hizdahr anyways. I honestly don't think we'll ever find out what their motivation was now that Dany has flown away.

[BlueDragon]

. . .

Readers aren't getting spoiled. We're having our theories confirmed. A great number of us is convinced Shireen will get burnt. The show confirmed. But Stannis won't do it. Because it's geographically impossible and unlike in the show, in the books, people need weeks or months to travel. Stannis was facing a blizzard the last time we saw him. Is he going to cross through it back to the Wall to say "please, burn my child so the blizzard I can't defeat but I just did because I got here alive can go away"?.

I'm very very sure that GRRM said something of the likes of "Shireen will die in name of Stannis' cause after they believe his chances are doomed". That is definitely not the same as "Stannis will burn his own daughter". And that would make more sense with the man who GRRM has created. Because yes, I can see how people would believe -in the book universe- that Stannis would want that to happen. And maybe it's too late for Stannis to realise how much he's losing on the way of the Throne. The guy who doesn't bend (allegedly) might eventually break when he finds out his daughter is dead in name of his own cause.

There is no reason that Stannis can't prevail in the Winterfell battle and still be in a position where he believes he must sacrifice Shireen later in the book narrative. Martin has thousands of pages in which to accomplish this.

D&D spoiled the books in their recap, but they have already spoiled the books in the show, e.g. Tyrion is already with Dany and they are setting up to end the season with Jon either killed for real and/or revived in Season 6.

D&D are forcing thousands of pages into far too few shows and not making wise decisions. That doesn't mean that they are deviating from the overall plot line. What would be the payoff for doing that? Martin chose to go forward with this project. He must have known the show would outpace his writing and he chose to travel a lot and participate in show related stuff rather than write.

There are many ways to make Stannis clearly responsible for Shireen's death whether he is right by her side or not.

[Sir Bronn]

I have no idea what the SotH wanted. Presumably they stopped attacking due to Dany's engagement to Hizdahr and the fighting pits being reopened...But then they killed Hizdahr anyways. I honestly don't think we'll ever find out what their motivation was now that Dany has flown away.

They are just a bunch of psychopats

[JonCon's Red Beard]

D&D spoiled the books in their recap, but they have already spoiled the books in the show, e.g. Tyrion is already with Dany and they are setting up to end the season with Jon either killed for real and/or revived in Season 6.

They aren't spoiling that. It was not just very obvious to all readers but GRRM himself said it would happen. He has said that even back in 2011 after Dance: "they will meet, but not yet". He has recently confirmed they will briefly meet or cross paths. Everything in Tyrion's latest chapters indicates he's on path to meet Dany ("dragons, dragons and you're in the middle"), and he's going to make the SS to turn allegiances to her favour

He has done that in tWoW already

Martin has also said that Jon is not dead. Not like that, but indirectly. "Oh, you think he's dead, right?". Considering Jon is being set up to be a big player in the books, it's very obvious he can't kill him now.

The thing is, some storylines and developments are so naturally leaded in a way, that the line between something spoiling it or simply confirming it is too thin. This is what is happening with the show. The show is confirming theories that a big percentage of the readership already believes will happen or are just hinted in books (like VS killing Others).

The scene with Shireen is particularly tricky because Stannis is in no position to be anywhere close to Shireen at the moment in the books. In the show, Shireen is burned because they need to improve their odds before leaving to Winterfell. But in the books, Stannis has already parted and he's enduring a blizzard by saying "no more burnings, pray harder" and "if I die, put my daughter on the throne". While many believe Stannis will die while facing the Boltons, some others are sure -me, among them- that Stannis still has a role to play. He might be able to burn Shireen, but not because of the reasons of the show, as he's past beyond that scenario at the moment. For that to happen as in the show, Stannis or one of his men would have to fly back to the Wall and give the order.

Shireen will be burned. I'm sure that will happen, sadly. Yet, one thing is to die for Stannis' cause and another one, by his hand. I think the first scenario is more likely. The situation at the Wall is about to get quite desperate. Not only due to the Others being about to invade, but because Jon has just been stabbed and hell is about to break. Remember that among the people in there, Val wanted the girl dead while Melisandre would do it if she believes Stannis is dead and they need to bring back Jon, who she already is starting to believe being AA and she's there to fight him, not to win a crown. I think, rather than spoil Stannis doing it, it does confirms Mel doing the deed for the sake of Jon's.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Doesn't the letter from the Bastard of Bolton indicate that Stannis is already defeated? Couldn't Selyse sacrifice Shireen out of desperation without consent from Stannis or Meilssandre? Especially if Jon Snow is incapacitated and Castle Black is in disarray?

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

I have a question.How the hell so many sons of harpy suddenly appeared between the crowd???People were in panic ,after we saw them on the screem,so they couldn't just sit next to them in those masks.

Presumably because they were seated with the crowd and had their masks hidden under their clothes? That's what I thought anyway FWIW.

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

They aren't spoiling that. It was not just very obvious to all readers but GRRM himself said it would happen. He has said that even back in 2011 after Dance: "they will meet, but not yet". He has recently confirmed they will briefly meet or cross paths. Everything in Tyrion's latest chapters indicates he's on path to meet Dany ("dragons, dragons and you're in the middle"), and he's going to make the SS to turn allegiances to her favour

He has done that in tWoW already

Martin has also said that Jon is not dead. Not like that, but indirectly. "Oh, you think he's dead, right?". Considering Jon is being set up to be a big player in the books, it's very obvious he can't kill him now.

The thing is, some storylines and developments are so naturally leaded in a way, that the line between something spoiling it or simply confirming it is too thin. This is what is happening with the show. The show is confirming theories that a big percentage of the readership already believes will happen or are just hinted in books (like VS killing Others).

The scene with Shireen is particularly tricky because Stannis is in no position to be anywhere close to Shireen at the moment in the books. In the show, Shireen is burned because they need to improve their odds before leaving to Winterfell. But in the books, Stannis has already parted and he's enduring a blizzard by saying "no more burnings, pray harder" and "if I die, put my daughter on the throne". While many believe Stannis will die while facing the Boltons, some others are sure -me, among them- that Stannis still has a role to play. He might be able to burn Shireen, but not because of the reasons of the show, as he's past beyond that scenario at the moment. For that to happen as in the show, Stannis or one of his men would have to fly back to the Wall and give the order.

Shireen will be burned. I'm sure that will happen, sadly. Yet, one thing is to die for Stannis' cause and another one, by his hand. I think the first scenario is more likely. The situation at the Wall is about to get quite desperate. Not only due to the Others being about to invade, but because Jon has just been stabbed and hell is about to break. Remember that among the people in there, Val wanted the girl dead while Melisandre would do it if she believes Stannis is dead and they need to bring back Jon, who she already is starting to believe being AA and she's there to fight him, not to win a crown. I think, rather than spoil Stannis doing it, it does confirms Mel doing the deed for the sake of Jon's.

I think that the sacrifice will come a lot later in WOW, and the stakes will be a lot higher - not just Stannis stuck in a blizzard. I think the show is obviously rushing his story through, truncating it, because he may not be around towards the end. I am upset about that from a personal point of view because I do actually like book Stannis (with all his flaws) and thought he would at least sit on the throne for a short while to bring back some order - Draconian though that order may be, it would be perhaps necessary. And even if he does do that in the books, he is clearly not going to do it on the show - well, I guess that isn't cast in stone, but it seems unlikely.

I will also be very sad to lose one of best actors on the show - although perhaps Dillane will be glad to have it over with :)

[kimim]

There are lots of ways it could make sense if we just let it play out.

For example if Trystane goes to Kings Landing and assassinates Tommen, his betrothed becomes queen. He then marries her and becomes King through marriage.

That should be the obvious Martell move: Kill Tommen, take the crown. Trystane, though, is not the type to pull something like that off. All we know of him is that he's pretty, and Myrcella loves him. Maybe he'll surprise.

[Alia of the knife]

Well, at this point, I have to stop following this because its too much to keep up with.

Being critical of D&D doesn't make anyone a hater. Getting personal with anyone is wrong. My biggest issue is that they could have pulled and examined other great material for fleshing out characters, but from the very beginning, they've been typcial Hollywood with its typcial emphasis on the sensational love affair with "shock."

D&D said from the very beginning that one of the reasons they wanted to do GOT was the Red Wedding.

Why?

Because of the nature of the scene. They wanted to be on the map for "OMG!!!!!!".

And then, as if the original materal wasn't gut wrenching enough, (as well as based upon a real historical event called the Black Dinner and the massacre of Glencoe), they had to throw in KING Robb bringing his wife, pregnant with possibly the next crown prince of the North into absolute enemy territory.

Just bringing her would have been an insult until the Frey girls were wedded well and probably at Robbs hand as a boon for the original insult.

So, while Martin drew from real history, it looks like D&D chose to pull from "Helter Skelter."

It's also telling that in the best Seasons, they needed GRRM to help write them. I would also point out that GRRM is actually a romantic, and for all the dark, he will justify it as only he can.

In regards to D&D, at this point, I just find them cliche.'

Edited June 9, 2015 by Alia of the knife