[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[Cas Stark]

To be fair, most of that Dorne storyline happened in the books, just with a few different characters. And in the books Mycella even lost an ear.

Now I agree that a lot of the execution of this story this season was weak. The fight between Jaime / Bronn and the Sand Snakes was woeful. It did not live up to its potential.

This season gave Jaime and Bronn something to do as their book material was used up. Let's face the Brotherhood Without Banners / Lady Stoneheart / Blackfish Versus Freys is end game stuff and will be best done in the last season. If Jaime goes in search of Brienne next season he is likely to run into BWB. and that is time enough for that to happen.

How is that? Jamie and Bronn never went to Dorne. So far there hasn't been any queenmaker plot in the show, nobody has attacked Myrcella. There doesn't even appear to be a rationale for Doran's fire and blood speech which I has assumed we'd see in ep. 10. The sum total of Dorne this season is that Tyrst and Myrcella are going back to KL? Jesus. It would hve been better then, maybe to just send them there next season. Or send Varys to Dorne to plot with Doran.

Not knowing exactly what happens, its' hard to say about the riverlands. It seems that they're bringing that back for next year. Me, I thought it would have helped anchor this year because it gives people some characters they're familiar with and some continuity..same reason other than my personal bias, I thought we should have gotten Stoneheart. For some fuck yeah, Stark payback to keep people interested. That would have been much more engaging than this Dorne slapping game stupidity we got.

Dorne wasn't very good in the books, I wouldn't have minded if they cut it all. But, since they didn't cut it, they are answerable for creating a totally stupid plot line, bad dialogue, cheesy fights, no forward momentum, and ending the season with the Dorne characters not any more fleshed out than they were before they didn't exist.

[Khal Boner]

No I didn't imply that. I'm sorry if that was your take away. I meant that the show completely invented the plot point of Loras being gay as the reason for the arrests of the Tyrells.

George made him gay, D&D made it the reason the High Sparrow seized him.

[Cubarey]

I'm 10000% sure that Loras isn't arrested and jailed for being gay in the books and that his sister isn't arrested for telling a little white lie about what she knows of his sex life. Thanks.

Just a bit, it was not "a little white lie". It was perjury in a court proceeding that went directly to the offense being discussed. Even today such a "white li" would get your a jail term. In Medevil times lying in a court proceeding especially a religious court could get you a death sentence.

[Tagganaro]

Agreed, but they've made a lot of questionable decisions when it comes to rewriting the adaptation to make it better for TV.

1) I actually prefer the idea of Sansa in WF but the execution was a bit off with regards to how Sansa is supposed to avenge her family by marrying into the Boltons. They could've at least come up with a better plan where Sansa has to endure it for a short time until Littlefinger helps her destroy them. Instead she's supposed to stop being a victim by becoming a victim...Not a fool proof plan.

2) I think Jaime and Bronn in Dorne could've possibly worked, or at least been more tolerable if they stuck true to Jaime's character progression in AFFC and his distancing from Cersei...Instead we get some comedy with he and Bronn and no growth at all...In fact possibly regression. The idea of kidnapping Myrcella was always going to be a bad plan but at least they could've made it thought provoking by applying Jaime's AFFC arc to Dorne instead of the Riverlands. I mean they almost set it up for Bronn to tell Jaime about Cersei's infidelity but ignored it.

3) Jon's arc has been well handled mostly -- We didn't need him and Bowen Marsh counting food stores all year and for that I'm grateful. But I wish they focused less on Olly and more on the longer-tenured leadership outside of Thorne. We already have Marsh and Yarwick casted at least give them some fucking lines. This is part of D&D's cliche tendencies and force feeding us plots.

4) Mereen has been an improvement mostly since I can't bear to re-read those chapters ever. The problem there was they chose to have Tyrion do really nothing while he's been there instead of trying to help her with the Harpy plot, and Hizdahr for some reason was treated like a punching bag for everyone despite him being one of the few logical characters and future King, then he gets randomly killed by SotH for some reason.

I'm pretty much in agreement. This was a herculean task, and all-in-all they've done a decent job. That being said, some decisions made this year have been rather mind-boggling, although Hardhome was magnificent so it kind of cancels out.

1) I thought it was a great idea to put Sansa in WF. It made perfect sense in theory. But yes, as you've said it has been an absolute mess and nothing about the execution of it makes any sense. I've said before, but this could have EASILY been fixed by including Northern Lords in WF. I will never understand how and why Manderley was cut (especially with 2 fuck yeah awesome moments of "the North remembers" and Frey Pie). If you have Manderley and a few other Nortthern Lords in WF, you can send Sansa there and at least have her "Play the game" and try to win their allegiance/support and work against Ramsay from the inside.

2) Yeah, the less said about Dorne the better. Failure on all levels and the worst thing the show has ever done. Arrianne should not have been cut, as simple as that I think.

3) and 4) I've liked what the show has done with Jon, Tyrion, and Dany's arcs. Dany's arc in particular to me has been a MASSIVE improvement over her book arc. They've simplified them in most rational ways, cut out a lot of pointless meandering material, and gotten them generally to where they need to be. I too HATE Olly though. It's really bad writing and we should have much more Thorne/Yarwyck/Marsh as opposed to constant Olly bitching and reaction shots.

[Alia of the knife]

In the books, Loras was KG, there to protect his sister and avoid marriage, thus questions about his sexuality which EVERYONE already knows about accept Sansa. He was horribly injured at the battle of Dragonstone, and as of the books, no one knows his fate.

[Cas Stark]

I agree, I'm on board with the Meereen story in the show for the most part, getting rid of the external issues and threats is fine, keep to the main themes. I still some issue with it, but on the whole, no major complaints other than the inexplicable time devoted to Missy and GW.

The wall has been generally okay, but they've not done a good job now with why Jon is going to get stabbed, since they added Hardhome, which provides ample eye witness evidence of the danger of the Others and the wisdom of bringing the wildings into the fold...stabbing him for that now makes little sense. Having him in the space of a single episode also decide to go to Winterfell to save Sansa and get stabbed will also lack the proper set up and be something that feels rushed...

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

How is that? Jamie and Bronn never went to Dorne. So far there hasn't been any queenmaker plot in the show, nobody has attacked Myrcella. There doesn't even appear to be a rationale for Doran's fire and blood speech which I has assumed we'd see in ep. 10. The sum total of Dorne this season is that Tyrst and Myrcella are going back to KL? Jesus. It would hve been better then, maybe to just send them there next season. Or send Varys to Dorne to plot with Doran.

Not knowing exactly what happens, its' hard to say about the riverlands. It seems that they're bringing that back for next year. Me, I thought it would have helped anchor this year because it gives people some characters they're familiar with and some continuity..same reason other than my personal bias, I thought we should have gotten Stoneheart. For some fuck yeah, Stark payback to keep people interested. That would have been much more engaging than this Dorne slapping game stupidity we got.

Dorne wasn't very good in the books, I wouldn't have minded if they cut it all. But, since they didn't cut it, they are answerable for creating a totally stupid plot line, bad dialogue, cheesy fights, no forward momentum, and ending the season with the Dorne characters not any more fleshed out than they were before they didn't exist.

I assume they couldn't cut it completely since it is important for later events. D&D would never balk at the opportunity to save time and money if they could so they could funnel those resources into other plot lines. It does seem like they put their D-team on Dorne though, it is markedly lower quality than anything they've previously done on the show.

[dndmn422]

People forget that there's a limit to how many characters and settings you can have in the show, meaning that D+D are forced to make a lot of changes.

For example take the Sansa/Ramsay storyline. That was absolutely necessary because the alternative was having two extra characters (Harry the Heir and fArya) and one extra setting and storyline (The Vale).

A lot of people's criticisms of the show can be put down to logistics, and the sheer difficulty of adapting such an epic series of books.

Agreed completely. The only caveat I would include is that when logic or in-show established character traits are pushed aside to accommodate the production it's frustrating.

Examples of this for season 5:

-Littlefinger not knowing Ramsey's nature and marring Sansa to him.

-Jamie/Bronn expecting to smuggle myrcella out of dorne by themselves (and actually succeeding in breaking into the palace)

-Ramsay, having little to no military experience, being able to sneak into and back out of Stannis' camp (I don't buy the whole "northerners know the land")

-Jon coming back to Castle Black, seeing all the brothers hate him, but doesn't immediately tell them what happened at Hardhome in an effort to support his case.

I understand shortcuts need to be made. I'm fine with truncating/condensing, but when logic is tossed aside it hurts what I feel is an otherwise great show.

[hallam]

I don't recall bookShireen being fleshed out as a character. Most of her scenes (in my recollection) have her being Patchface's sidekick.

ShowShireen stole my heart in a way that bookShireen never did. And because I found myself adoring every scene she was in, I knew she was going to be a sacrificial lamb of sorts. I think her story was told well enough. And the repercussions to follow will be fascinating to witness.

I'll be sad if Shireen is burned in Winds of Winter, but nowhere as heartbroken as I'll be if Ghost is sacrificed...something I've been preparing myself for for 5 years.

In other words, I would cry for Ghost much like I cried for showShireen; bookShireen not so much.

Sansa might be able to save Ghost.

In the books, Ghost might well get killed during FTW because Jon is losing his Stark identity and being revealed as AAR. In the show the same thing can happen but with one major difference - Sansa is returning to the Stark family and gets Ghost in place of Lady.

Book Sansa hasn't earned her wolf back yet.

There is too much uproar about this Stannis stuff. I was not shocked at all. I am not upset about the act, but the flimsy reason for the sacrifice. We all knew it was coming. I am confident GRRM will make it more necessary and interesting than the show runners.

I've always believed one family in the story will be the Reynes of Castamere. The Starks were on their way, and the Lannisters seem likely at times, but I believe the killing of Shireen means the Baratheons will be eliminated by the story's end.

Just one?

The Baratheons are already there. We know Tommen and Myrcella will die ahead of Cersei. And Stannis will get his comeupance sooner or later.

The Lannisters have only Martyn and Tyrion left to carry on the family name. Lancel has become a monk fanatic.

The Boltons are down to Ramsay and Fat 'Pie meat' Walder. I don't think it likely either is gong to live very long.

House Aryn? Well thats been reduced to SweetRobin and Harry the Heir.

House Whent? Already gone.

House Tyrell? All they have left is Loras and he is gay and apparently mortally wounded in the books, in the show he is gay and apparently about to be executed by the faith.

House Frey? Likely to have issue but certain to be attainted if the Starks ever get back to power in the north.

The scene with Shireen is particularly tricky because Stannis is in no position to be anywhere close to Shireen at the moment in the books. In the show, Shireen is burned because they need to improve their odds before leaving to Winterfell. But in the books, Stannis has already parted and he's enduring a blizzard by saying "no more burnings, pray harder" and "if I die, put my daughter on the throne". While many believe Stannis will die while facing the Boltons, some others are sure -me, among them- that Stannis still has a role to play. He might be able to burn Shireen, but not because of the reasons of the show, as he's past beyond that scenario at the moment. For that to happen as in the show, Stannis or one of his men would have to fly back to the Wall and give the order.

Every time book Stannis said something of the sort, I thought it was even more likely she was going to die by his hand. He protests too much.

The if I die put my daughter on the throne order was replaced by the tender moment when he discussed the greyscale.

The only problem I have, is that each episode should be 1 hr 15 mins, and each season should be 12-15 episodes,that way they wouldnt have to cut SOOOOOOOOOOOO much out.

I thought that was a good idea. But... think about it, if they could pump out 15 episodes a season they would do exactly that. It takes them a whole year to produce just the 10.

[dndmn422]

The only problem I have, is that each episode should be 1 hr 15 mins, and each season should be 12-15 episodes,that way they wouldnt have to cut SOOOOOOOOOOOO much out.

lol you are basically asking for them to double the budget of the show, or otherwise half the quality of what they currently are producing.

[Khal Boner]

l the brothers hate him, but doesn't immediately tell them what happened at Hardhome in an effort to support his case.

Did you expect him to come running through the gates yelling "lads, lads you'll never guess what I've just seen." Give him a chance. We only saw the scene of them arriving and watching the wildlings pass through CB. Sam didn't even mention Maester Aemon's death.

[Borodin]

Did you expect him to come running through the gates yelling "lads, lads you'll never guess what I've just seen." Give him a chance.

That exactly what I expected him to say. When you see the end of the world coming, it's usually the first thing you mention upon seeing someone.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Borodin

[Khal Boner]

That exactly what I expected him to say. When you see the end of the world coming, it's usually the first thing you mention upon seeing someone.

In comedies.

[Cas Stark]

Did you expect him to come running through the gates yelling "lads, lads you'll never guess what I've just seen." Give him a chance. We only saw the scene of them arriving and watching the wildlings pass through CB. Sam didn't even mention Maester Aemon's death.

Unless he's not getting stabbed, he doesn't have much time, and if he tells them all about Hardhome in ep. 10 then it makes it even more strange that they will still stab him right after he's been proven right?

This is what people mean when they criticize the show's pacing and that they fail to follow through on their own changes. If they are going to add in Hardhome, then they need to account for that knowledge and change and adapt the reasons for Jon getting stabbed.

[hallam]

How is that? Jamie and Bronn never went to Dorne. So far there hasn't been any queenmaker plot in the show, nobody has attacked Myrcella. There doesn't even appear to be a rationale for Doran's fire and blood speech which I has assumed we'd see in ep. 10. The sum total of Dorne this season is that Tyrst and Myrcella are going back to KL? Jesus. It would hve been better then, maybe to just send them there next season. Or send Varys to Dorne to plot with Doran.

..

Dorne wasn't very good in the books, I wouldn't have minded if they cut it all. But, since they didn't cut it, they are answerable for creating a totally stupid plot line, bad dialogue, cheesy fights, no forward momentum, and ending the season with the Dorne characters not any more fleshed out than they were before they didn't exist.

You have to have patience. It is clear that the Dorne plot is building up to something that becomes significant in book 6.

As with Tyrion's trip to Valyria, D&D have very different restrictions. GRRM can have a character tell us about Dorne in dialog and it is exactly the same as a visit by a POV character. D&D have to show us which means they have to have a major character go to Dorne. GRRM doesn't send one, so D&D have to.

Jamie's riverlands plot in the books is a bit pointless and so is Sansa's lemoncake plot. They made a good call on both.

[Borodin]

In comedies.

Right. If you saw a zombie army marching on your home you'd just take your time, have breakfast, look around, bring it up in casual conversation to your family a week later. Please.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Borodin

[Khal Boner]

Right. If you saw a zombie army marching on your home you'd just take your time, have breakfast, look around, bring it up in casual conversation to your family a week later. Please.

I'd expect to get the thousands of refugees under my protection through the gate first.

[JSPR_G]

I just assumed Jon told the NW what happened off-screen. Sam's reaction to Jon saying 'I went to save them. I failed.' looked like he already knows what happened. But then again, the episode was only 52 minutes. It's not like there was no time left for a decent dialogue.

Edited June 9, 2015 by JSPR_G

[RoamingRonin]

That exactly what I expected him to say. When you see the end of the world coming, it's usually the first thing you mention upon seeing someone.

When you have a zombie hand in a jar, you don't keep it a secret until it decays in a jar and is of no worth to anyone. Why didn't Ser Allister run straight to Winterfell with what he had or to any northern castle? How come no one saw the dead hand before he got to King's Landing? Let's see how many excuses you can come up with to make this make sense.

There are still survivors from the Fist of the First Men at Castle Black. The watch knows the Others exist. There's absolutely nothing wrong with how Jon acted. There's no need to rush and tell them what they already know.

I'd expect to get the thousands of refugees under my protection through the gate first.

Exactly.

I just assumed Jon told the NW what happened off-screen. Sam's reaction to Jon saying 'I went to save them. I failed.' looked like he already knows what happened. But then again, the episode was only 52 minutes. It's not like there wasn't time left for a decent dialogue.

Agreed. What else could have attacked the wildlings? More wildlings?

Edited June 9, 2015 by RoamingRonin

[Blushingfae]

But then again, the episode was only 52 minutes. It's not like there was no time left for a decent dialogue.

Nope but there was time to watch the sandsnakes play "slap me" and time to watch three whores paraded in front of a child molester. Wonder how many seconds of decent stuff we could have replaced with those scenes omitted?