[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[Chebyshov]

Throw some kerosene on some medieval fabric and set a match to it. See what happens. I'm guessing they didn't have the technology to make things fire retardant yet.

But they had kerosene.

[kissdbyfire]

But they had kerosene.

Throw kerosene and light it up with your Zippo! :p

[Katjushka]

It's also a timing issue. The showrunners said that they work year round and only have time to produce ten episodes.

Yeah, this. Obviesly it is a money issue as well as the show already is really expensive to make but also time, they shoot with two crews simultaneously as it is and have told in previous seasons that not a lot of material ends up on the cutting room floor as they use pretty much almost everything they shoot. There's no way they could do 15 episodes of this quality and I'll rather take quality over quantity here.

[Cas Stark]

Throw some kerosene on some medieval fabric and set a match to it. See what happens. I'm guessing they didn't have the technology to make things fire retardant yet.

Do they have kerosene in Westeros? Did Ramsay have some stash of wildfire or something? LOL.

[Welease Woger]

I am a hardcore Stannis fan.

One of the problems I have with events on the show is that we know it didn't happen like that in the books for several reasons, including the timeline of events. I also have a problem with Stannis being the one who decided to sacrifice his daughter and heir at the drop of a hat. Part of the problem here is the show's sloppiness and inconsistency within their own story. If Davos says there are hundreds of dead horses, they cannot be starving. So it seems extremely idiotic to burn your sole heir just because of some snow - Satannis was not in straits dire enough to justify this. I'm on the camp that thinks if Shireen burns it will be without Stannis knowledge. And if he does know and approves, it will be a world end scenario, not because they missed their morning tea and couldn't be bothered to wait for the horse meat to be roasted.

As to your first post, I don't think Martin really meant to change a character just to make him/her more 'monstrous' than Walter White, my take on it was that he was just joking.

I'm with you, the show has been really sloppy and inconsistent with their writing. One example from the same episode is that Davos knew that exactly 20 men from the Boltons were involved in the attack to the camp even though it was late at night and no one saw them coming. Unfortunately, the show events will seldom resist a thorough critical analysis.

But if GRRM himself said that Stannis is going to burn Shireen, we can only speculate about how it will happen in the books. Maybe it will happen soon and in very similar circunstances to the show, for example, Melisandre, Selyse and Shireen leave the Wall because it's become a dangerous place after FTW events. Maybe it will happen much later in much different circunstances. Maybe we can understand Stannis better by then.

I think it's an interesting perspective to have Stannis as a complex, multidimensional villain; a villain that could be a great hero had he not made one really bad decision (trusting Melisandre).

And, yeah, I don't think GRRM really changed a character in order to homage Breaking Bad, he certainly already had his plans. In my opinion, that comment was not a joke, but a teaser about what was coming.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Welease Woger

[SerGuppy]

No, but Stannis has a duplicitous fire witch who loves to push him to the brink. Ramsay is probably wondering himself how that went off so smoothly.

[El Guapo]

I'm with you, the show has been really sloppy and inconsistent with their writing. One example from the same episode is that Davos knew that exactly 20 men from the Boltons were involved in the attack to the camp even though it was late at night and no one saw them coming. Unfortunately, the show events will seldom resist a thorough critical analysis.

But if GRRM himself said that Stannis is going to burn Shireen, we can only speculate about how it will happen in the books. Maybe it will happen soon and in very similar circunstances to the show, for example, Melisandre, Selyse and Shireen leave the Wall because it's become a dangerous place after FTW events. Maybe it will happen much later in much different circunstances. Maybe we can understand Stannis better by then.

I think it's an interesting perspective to have Stannis as a complex, multidimensional villain; a villain that could be a great hero had he not made one really bad decision (trusting Melisandre).

And, yeah, I don't think GRRM really changed a character in order to homage Breaking Bad, he certainly already had his plans. In my opinion, that comment was not a joke, but a teaser about what was coming.

He guesses that it was around 20 men or so, he doesn't know the exact figure. And I am guessing he came up with that figure based on the number of fires that were started.

[The Prince of Porne]

This would normally go in the now-locked (for some reason) Rant thread, but I read a review where the author derisively referred to Stannis as "a commander who relies on sorcery to win battles."

That's right:

"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

Now we know that if Stannis wins the Battle of Ice it will be due to blood magic -- he could never be a match for Ram(bo)sey otherwise.

Edited June 10, 2015 by My Prediction: Payne

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This would normally go in the now-locked (for some reason) Rant thread, but I read a review where the author derisively referred to Stannis as "a commander who relies on sorcery to win battles."

That's right:

"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

Now we know if Stannis wins the Battle of Ice that it will be due to blood magic -- he could never be a match for Ram(bo)sey otherwise.

Looks like Stannis' chances dropped down as soon as he got Mel. She must be jinxed or something.

[dannyk65]

This is SolidSnakeRamsbo and the 20 predators you're talking about. Burning the supplies was as easy as breathing for him and he probably did it with his shirt off. The reason he didn't kill Satannis is because he wants him to give Ramsbo a last good fight before he flays him alive.

Say whatever you want, but I believe Chef Ramsay:First Blood does almost everything with his shirt off

[Welease Woger]

He guesses that it was around 20 men or so, he doesn't know the exact figure. And I am guessing he came up with that figure based on the number of fires that were started.

Could be. But there are many other examples of sloppy writing in the show, anyway. In the very same episode Jon Snow arrives at the gates of Castle Black, North of the Wall, even though he had boats and it would be much more safe to march to Castle Black from the South. This show is not very concerned about logic, only doing cool and shocking stuff. It's still very fun to watch, but it's becoming dumb at times. So, we should be careful before extrapolating the events of the show to the books. I'm sure when (if) Stannis decides to burn Shireen, we will feel that he is in a much more desperate situation than it looked in the show.

[dannyk65]

It would be cool if Stannis and the Boltons kill each other, and Sansa come out and say "I am Sansa Stark! Hey, north, remember me?" :lol:

The north remembers that the Boltons remember

[Cas Stark]

I was actually surprised how many people, even show only viewers, who noted that Jon was returning on the wrong side of the wall, LOL.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Throw some kerosene on some medieval fabric and set a match to it. See what happens. I'm guessing they didn't have the technology to make things fire retardant yet.

So 10 pair of two men in ten different places, all of which are critical to the encampment and should be well guarded, have the time to douse supplies in a liquid catalyst and start a fire in sub-zero temperature with snowfall without being noticed. Do we have 10 sets of sleeping guards. Did they carry the fire with them into the camp, because they don't have lighters or matches? No one would notice ten sets of guys wandering into the camp from the outer perimeter with torches? In a camp run by supposedly one of the most experienced and disciplined commanders in Westeros?

Starting fires in cold, particularly on substances that have been seeped in snow or ice, is very hard. The physics don't support it. It is a glaring plot hole.

Edited June 10, 2015 by A_Cornered_Wolf

[hallam]

Did you even see/hear the exact quote? It in no way implies that Stannis was directly responsible. that would be like Jeoffrey swinging the sword instead of Illyn and afterwards D&D covering their asses with an ambiguous quote "when George told us about this".

The bottom line is no one is going to know the truth for another three or four years until the book comes out.

And until that time, the Stannatics can STFU about D&D getting it wrong.

If a book 6 comes out and if Stannis is not to blame then the Stannatics can complain. But ranting on for pages and pages about the 'stupidity' of D&D when they don't know the facts only proves that they are the mental midgets here, not the showrunners.

Of course it has to be Stannis who makes the decision. Otherwise Mel would have to off him and make herself queen. While it is quite possible GRRM will do something else in the books it is very very unlikely and most folk who look at the show ant the book objectively would still say D&D got it right and it was GRRM making the mistake.

Fortunately, that is a really, really remote possibility. The show runners are very good but almost nobody would say they are better than GRRM at causing characters to die in horrible ways. In fact lets make a list of shocking events in the books that the show has dropped:

1) The bestiality in Ramsay's rape of Jeyne Poole

2) The Frey Bentos pies

3) Tyrion's participation in the gang rape of Tysha.

The only thing the showrunners have done to make GoT 'worse' than the books was to have Ramsay marry a real noble girl rather than a disposable peasant and show Robb's wife getting killed.

[7th-key]

I just saw Drogon's entry. Everybody stand on their marks. Play the lovely music.Deanerys don't panic. Why didn't St. Tyrion offer Drogon a breath mint? And great idea to design the dragons' spikes arranged like that on their backs. I guess it made sense creatively, since a woman was going to ride it.

Edited June 10, 2015 by 7th-key

[kissdbyfire]

I was actually surprised how many people, even show only viewers, who noted that Jon was returning on the wrong side of the wall, LOL.

Heh, me too. But frankly, last scene from previous ep we seem them on the boats, and suddenly they're walking towards the Wall? LOL

I also looooooove the 'who blinks first' game between Jon and Thorne, it's almost as good as the slapsies game! :D

[WSmith84]

And until that time, the Stannatics can STFU about D&D getting it wrong.

If a book 6 comes out and if Stannis is not to blame then the Stannatics can complain. But ranting on for pages and pages about the 'stupidity' of D&D when they don't know the facts only proves that they are the mental midgets here, not the showrunners.

Of course it has to be Stannis who makes the decision. Otherwise Mel would have to off him and make herself queen. While it is quite possible GRRM will do something else in the books it is very very unlikely and most folk who look at the show ant the book objectively would still say D&D got it right and it was GRRM making the mistake.

If this is how Shireen is burned in the books, it will still be bad writing. Because it is bad writing, plain and simple. Melisandre offing Shireen without Stannis' permission would actually be wonderfully poetic and far superior to Stannis doing it because he's a bit cold and hungry.

[dannyk65]

Heh, me too. But frankly, last scene from previous ep we seem them on the boats, and suddenly they're walking towards the Wall? LOL

I also looooooove the 'who blinks first' game between Jon and Thorne, it's almost as good as the slapsies game! :D

Well, we didn't get coldhands, so they gave us some hothands instead

[The Prince of Porne]

And until that time, the Stannatics can STFU about D&D getting it wrong.

If a book 6 comes out and if Stannis is not to blame then the Stannatics can complain. But ranting on for pages and pages about the 'stupidity' of D&D when they don't know the facts only proves that they are the mental midgets here, not the showrunners.

If Stannis does end up burning Shireen at some point (which very well may happen), it will be under very different circumstances and I doubt it will feel as wasted and needless as last week's scene did -- because D&D can't hold a candle to GRRM as storytellers. They went out of their way to shoehorn that event into a situation where it wasn't needed and made no sense, and they do deserve criticism for that whether or not something kinda similar ish eventually happens in the books.

The only thing the showrunners have done to make GoT 'worse' than the books..

:lmao:

Edited June 10, 2015 by My Prediction: Payne