[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

[kissdbyfire]

And until that time, the Stannatics can STFU about D&D getting it wrong.

If a book 6 comes out and if Stannis is not to blame then the Stannatics can complain. But ranting on for pages and pages about the 'stupidity' of D&D when they don't know the facts only proves that they are the mental midgets here, not the showrunners.

Of course it has to be Stannis who makes the decision. Otherwise Mel would have to off him and make herself queen. While it is quite possible GRRM will do something else in the books it is very very unlikely and most folk who look at the show ant the book objectively would still say D&D got it right and it was GRRM making the mistake.

Fortunately, that is a really, really remote possibility. The show runners are very good but almost nobody would say they are better than GRRM at causing characters to die in horrible ways. In fact lets make a list of shocking events in the books that the show has dropped:

1) The bestiality in Ramsay's rape of Jeyne Poole

2) The Frey Bentos pies

3) Tyrion's participation in the gang rape of Tysha.

The only thing the showrunners have done to make GoT 'worse' than the books was to have Ramsay marry a real noble girl rather than a disposable peasant and show Robb's wife getting killed.

If Stannis does it in the books, it will have some context. He won't burn his daughter and sole heir because of some snow and *no food*, which is a stupid ass argument, as many have stated already. I'll eat my diplomas if Martin simply makes any character do a 180° turn, that's D&D's speciality.

Edited June 10, 2015 by kissdbyfire

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I'd like to say one thing about the show spoiling the books. I'm sure it's been said already, but I think it bears reiterating.

Everybody understands that the show is going beyond published material. Everybody. That is not the issue.

The issue is: D&D confirming that a particular thing will happen in a yet-unpublished book. It doesn't matter what the thing is, they should not spoil it.

If questioned, they should say, "To know if {an event} happens in the next book, you'll have to read the next book. Until you do read the next book, we will not confirm or deny anything." We should not know for certain what is going to happen in unpublished material. We should be left guessing (and theorizing).

Discretion is the better part of valor. I guess D&D don't have any valor.

[7th-key]

^ absolutely great point

[WSmith84]

I'd like to say one thing about the show spoiling the books. I'm sure it's been said already, but I think it bears reiterating.

Everybody understands that the show is going beyond published material. Everybody. That is not the issue.

The issue is: D&D confirming that a particular thing will happen in a yet-unpublished book. It doesn't matter what the thing is, they should not spoil it.

If questioned, they should say, "To know if {an event} happens in the next book, you'll have to read the next book. Until you do read the next book, we will not confirm or deny anything." We should not know for certain what is going to happen in unpublished material. We should be left guessing (and theorizing).

Discretion is the better part of valor. I guess D&D don't have any valor.

Thank you. It's been difficult to put how I felt about their decision to confirm this into words. I've taken Talisa's death in the show to mean that Jeyne Westerling isn't pregnant in the books, but it's not 100% and I like the small uncertainty. I don't know about other book-readers, but I've been extremely good at not spoiling anything for my Unsullied friends. I'd hoped that D&D would extend that courtesy to book readers.

Edit: Woohoo! Just remembered Talisa's no longer in the show!

Edited June 10, 2015 by WSmith84

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I just saw Drogon's entry. Everybody stand on their marks. Play the lovely music.Deanerys don't panic. Why didn't St. Tyrion offer Drogon a breath mint? And great idea to design the dragons' spikes arranged like that on their backs. I guess it made sense creatively, since a woman was going to ride it.

:lmao:

[Dracarys Stormborn]

I'd like to say one thing about the show spoiling the books. I'm sure it's been said already, but I think it bears reiterating.

Everybody understands that the show is going beyond published material. Everybody. That is not the issue.

The issue is: D&D confirming that a particular thing will happen in a yet-unpublished book. It doesn't matter what the thing is, they should not spoil it.

If questioned, they should say, "To know if {an event} happens in the next book, you'll have to read the next book. Until you do read the next book, we will not confirm or deny anything." We should not know for certain what is going to happen in unpublished material. We should be left guessing (and theorizing).

Discretion is the better part of valor. I guess D&D don't have any valor.

They said it was GRRM's idea to get the target off their backs. Shireen probably will be burned, but since GRRM is a good writer I'm sure it'll be done in a way that makes sense (like Mel doing it behind Stan's back ... cause he wouldn't burn his only heir unless there was literally no hope and they tried everything else first). D&D were vauge enough when they revealed it would be in the books. They said that GRRM told them about it, but they didn't say that it would happen exactly like they wrote it. They didn't care if they spoiled anything. They knew they would face criticism for burning her and they said anything to push the fault onto someone else.

Basically? They threw GRRM under the bus.

Edited June 10, 2015 by SeventhReign

[Ser Quork]

I'd like to say one thing about the show spoiling the books. I'm sure it's been said already, but I think it bears reiterating.

Everybody understands that the show is going beyond published material. Everybody. That is not the issue.

The issue is: D&D confirming that a particular thing will happen in a yet-unpublished book. It doesn't matter what the thing is, they should not spoil it.

If questioned, they should say, "To know if {an event} happens in the next book, you'll have to read the next book. Until you do read the next book, we will not confirm or deny anything." We should not know for certain what is going to happen in unpublished material. We should be left guessing (and theorizing).

Discretion is the better part of valor. I guess D&D don't have any valor.

Very well said.

Especially as what D&D said isn't actually the case as GRRM confirmed on his blog - he hasn't written that yet.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/428790.html?thread=21734390

[Mo_Snow]

I just saw Drogon's entry. Everybody stand on their marks. Play the lovely music.Deanerys don't panic. Why didn't St. Tyrion offer Drogon a breath mint? And great idea to design the dragons' spikes arranged like that on their backs. I guess it made sense creatively, since a woman was going to ride it.

That's exactly what I thought, as she's climbing up him and I see a row of sharp ass spikes trailing straight down his back! I was like, "How is she gonna sit there? OUCH!"

[Rovex]

If this is how Shireen is burned in the books, it will still be bad writing. Because it is bad writing, plain and simple. Melisandre offing Shireen without Stannis' permission would actually be wonderfully poetic and far superior to Stannis doing it because he's a bit cold and hungry.

I dont really get this 'a bit cold and hungry' thing that seems to be repeated a lot. They are feezing to death and have no food at all. They don't have the resources to go forward to Winterfell or back to the wall. Its a depserate situation where they have to do something drastic or die in a matter of days. This was made quite clear in the show.

[WSmith84]

I dont really get this 'a bit cold and hungry' thing that seems to be repeated a lot. They are feezing to death and have no food at all. They don't have the resources to go forward to Winterfell or back to the wall. Its a depserate situation where they have to do something drastic or die in a matter of days. This was made quite clear in the show.

Even if I accepted that Ramsey and his 20 men managed to burn the stores of a ?6000 man army, they literally said in the episode that they had 100 horses to eat (at the least).Why not actually send Davos to CB with a request for food and wait? Why not wait and see if the snows clear? Why not butcher some more horses now and eat them, saving on having to feed them as well? All of this could have been done by Stannis, but wasn't. The whole situation surrounding the burning was stupid.

[Rovex]

Show Stannis doesnt go back and If they were able to go back they may have tried, they couldnt go back. He is well under Mels thumb and clearly isnt able to make completely rational decisons any more. Besides, he knows the situation at the wall isnt much better anyway. The wall isnt equipped to feed 6000 men and a hundred plus horses, he also knows thousands of wildlings are about to arrive as well. How many men are left at the wall? Enough to maintain a defence and transport food for 6000 through arctic conditions? No.

Kill all the horses and you eat, for a while, but it rules out the chance of you taking Winterfell for good. Winter is here, the weather wont get better, only worse.

Sneek attacks in the real world have done just as much damage, its not that much oif a stretch to think 20 men could damage the stores of an army.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Rovex

[WSmith84]

Sneek attacks in the real world have done just as much damage, its not that much oif a stretch to think 20 men could damage the stores of an army.

I'm just going to quote A_Cornered_Wolf's post as to why Ramsey's raid was ridiculous.

For posterity, why Ramsay's raid was ridiculous:

So 10 pair of two men in ten different places, all of which are critical to the encampment and should be well guarded, have the time to douse supplies in a liquid catalyst and start a fire in sub-zero temperature with snowfall without being noticed. Do we have 10 sets of sleeping guards. Did they carry the fire with them into the camp, because we know they don't have lighters or matches to light anything quickly. No one would notice random soldiers wandering into the camp from the outer perimeter with torches at night? In a camp run by supposedly one of the most experienced and disciplined commanders in Westeros?

Starting fires in the cold, particularly on substances that have been seeped in snow or ice, is very hard. Jack London wrote an entire depressing short story about it. The physics don't support it. It is a glaring plot hole

[#teamNightking]

I thought that was strange at first too, and then they killed Hizdahr, and I realized that it was an expression of their rejection of Hizdahr's Peace and their willingness to kill anyone who tries to assimilate to the new order.

I agree with this. It made no sense to me at first but on a rewatch it did. Anyone without a mask is basically fair game as they are a supporter of Dany and peace. It was a way to wipe out and terrorize the opposition. Also I can even justify the hesitation to rush the circle of unsullied as the Sons of the Harpy are not trained fighters nor soldiers nor even likely have anyone giving orders in battle. Was it perfect? No. But I did bump my rating from a 5 to a 7 after a rewatch. I think being pissed off about Shireen burning made me more hyper critical of everything that came after.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Wsc44

[Cas Stark]

I dont really get this 'a bit cold and hungry' thing that seems to be repeated a lot. They are feezing to death and have no food at all. They don't have the resources to go forward to Winterfell or back to the wall. Its a depserate situation where they have to do something drastic or die in a matter of days. This was made quite clear in the show.

Have no food at all? WTF are you talking about.

The show specifically says that hundreds of horses were killed and are to be butchered. They have tons of food.

[Rovex]

Its a fantasy TV show, yes its difficult to do that, but not impossilble (you might want to research the history of finnish/russian skirmishes), but you know what, there is also magic, zombies and dragons. To dwell on this minor point seems rather silly.

Besides, they could have picked up the fire on site, oil will burn, phosphorus will burn in the snow and even under water as will a number of other readily available chemicals, even in 'medieval' times. Clearly such things exist in this universe, ref. blackwater..

[Rovex]

Have no food at all? WTF are you talking about.

The show specifically says that hundreds of horses were killed and are to be butchered. They have tons of food.

They are dead now, doesnt mean it was desirable to kill them deliberatly. Sure they might have survived (might) if they had, but clearly under the conditions they were in doing so would seriously compromise their ability to wage war.

If they had killed them for food what then? Cant go back to the wall and cant go forward to Winterfell, all it would have done is both delay death and ensured it.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Its a fantasy TV show, yes its difficult to do that, but not impossilble (you might want to research the history of finnish/russian skirmishes), but you know what, there is also magic, zombies and dragons. To dwell on this minor point seems rather silly.

Besides, they could have picked up the fire on site, oil will burn, phosphorus will burn in the snow and even under water as will a number of other readily available chemicals, even in 'medieval' times. Clearly such things exist in this universe, ref. blackwater..

It is not a minor point as it is the catalyst for Stannis's decision. Picking up fire on site, as you put it, requires time and interacting with Stannis's troops, who are likely to raise an alarm. Unless we think fires are going to be left unattended, in a snowstorm.... where people are going to be freezing. Any source of fire would probably be used to warm people and any decently disciplined force (which hasn't picked up new recruits for months now) isn't going to welcome new faces cause Ramsey.

Edited June 10, 2015 by A_Cornered_Wolf

[sb.69]

I'd like to say one thing about the show spoiling the books. I'm sure it's been said already, but I think it bears reiterating.

Everybody understands that the show is going beyond published material. Everybody. That is not the issue.

The issue is: D&D confirming that a particular thing will happen in a yet-unpublished book. It doesn't matter what the thing is, they should not spoil it.

If questioned, they should say, "To know if {an event} happens in the next book, you'll have to read the next book. Until you do read the next book, we will not confirm or deny anything." We should not know for certain what is going to happen in unpublished material. We should be left guessing (and theorizing).

Discretion is the better part of valor. I guess D&D don't have any valor.

The thing is either the book is the spoiler or the show is. If you believe the show is true to the book, then you don't need confirmation. If you don't, then you shouldn't care. And there are people who still don't even when it's confirmed.

If you don't want spoilers at all, stay out of the spoiler threads.

[Rovex]

It is not a minor point as it is the catalyst for Stannis's decision. Picking up fire on site, as you put it, requires time and interacting with Stannis's troops, who are likely to raise an alarm. Unless we think fires are going to be left unattended, in a snowstorm.... where people are going to be freezing. Any source of fire would probably be used to warm people and any decently disciplined force (which hasn't picked up new recruits for months now) isn't going to welcome new faces cause Ramsey.

I didn't mean the plot point was minor, i meant the slight stretch needed to beleive it was minor. I feel like people need spoon feeding every single detail, which in itself might be the difference between avid book readers and TV viewers. Maybe they snuck in to a tent and killed the occupants, taking the fire they had, who knows? Its a minor point that really doesnt need a drawn out explanation to my mind.

[Et tu Olly?]

you need a colossal suspension of disbelief if you are to accept that 20 men destroyed the siege engines, burned all the supplies of an army of 6000 and killed at least 100 hundred horses without any of them being spotted.