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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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GRRM said it himself "Characters will die in the show that don't die in the books". I truly think this is the case here.

The show runners needed a "2 birds [something that beats the winter and gives shock factor] with one stone" to give Stannis some advantage. They ditched the mountain clan storyline. So killing Shireen was kind of a shortcut that will give another "WTF Moment" that they build the show on.

Stannis didn't need a huge advantage until the somewhat pointless Ramsay mission which didn't really give us any new information about anybody. So far it's only been about putting Stannis in the supposedly desperate situation he was in. Relative to the books, Stannis wasn't in all that bad of a position on the show. He hadn't been in the storm too long from the looks of it on the show and he started out with more troops than Bolton.

Part of the problem is they didn't allocate nearly enough time to the situation if they were trying to sell us that Stannis was that desperate. They can't make this huge show earlier in the season of Stannis loving his daughter and apparently never giving up on her which I'm pretty sure was supposed to be genuine and then all of the sudden at the first major sign of any trouble outside of the known storm he just goes and burns her. There wasn't enough build up of desperation, so the scene earlier combined with all prior indications just come off as Stannis just being a fickle asshole or the wrong kind of manipulative by the writers just to "surprise" the audience.

Look at the different parents' reactions to the situation which seem to entirely go counter to what we've seen previously concerning their daughter, it just comes off as bad characterization. Perhaps they intended there to be a reason Selyse was so nasty to Shireen earlier such as trying to remain distant because of what she saw in fires, but they need to give more to show that her awfulness to Shireen was a facade or at least show more causation between a vision she saw and the way she acted.

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I have always considered him weak....even in the books. He is now responsible for having Melisandre murder both his brother and daughter. He certainly is not like the Starks who believe the person dictating the execution should do it himself. He is a coward and a JERK!

True. Ned would have never stood up for this "man" if he knew what he was truly like. Ned didn't even see the need to kill Dany and wanted no part of it. The Baratheons seem to just shrug that off.

Stannis is one puny man.

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Stannis Baratheon, the man who held Storm's End for the entire length of a war while living off of rats and horses decides to burn his daughter and heir because a few of his supplies were burnt? Yeah, bullshit. I doubt anyone can say that D&D aren't just out to destroy Stannis' as a character now...


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Relevant quote from David Benioff from the Inside the Episode, and I'm bolding it so that you all read it:

You all need to take a seat when talking about D&D going off-book with Shireen's sacrifice. It's coming straight from GRRM.

We'll see... Not sure I'm buying it until I read it in the books.

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Not only that. Benioff strongly implies that Stannis will be responsible in the books as well.

This will be a very long year, waiting to see WoW verify this. It's ambiguous whether "this" refers to Stannis being responsible or not. If he isn't, then it's the worst departure from the books yet.

I hope the Vale knights come soon and kill all of them.

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It's obviously it doesn't happen like that in the books.

This happened so Shireen can help them to win Winterfell. Stannis is already going there in the books and Shireen is alive.

Will she be burnt? Yes. Not by Stannis.

The D&D quote makes it seem like Stannis will in fact be at least partly responsible for burning Shireen.

However, Mel is rather ambiguous in the books whereas her smiling as shireen burns put her firmly in the asshole box.

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You internet warriors read the books and think you can write a better story then D&D is laughable. Your sense of entitlement is a reminder of how bullheaded you book readers are.

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I'm off to the rant threads until I cool down. I'm in full RealElaria mode. I can't with people who want to discuss scenes of the books when they have obviously not understood how they work or what they are about. They don't want to see. :dunno:


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Relevant quote from David Benioff from the Inside the Episode, and I'm bolding it so that you all read it:

You all need to take a seat when talking about D&D going off-book with Shireen's sacrifice. It's coming straight from GRRM.

But is it Stannis that orders it in the books? Do they specifically say this?

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They can't make this huge show earlier in the season of Stannis loving his daughter and apparently never giving up on her which I'm pretty sure was supposed to be genuine and then all of the sudden at the first major sign of any trouble outside of the known storm he just goes and burns her.

It was rushed, but Stannis himself in the books foreshadows this with his talk of the nature of sacrifice. Melisandre won't sacrifice her against the wishes of Stannis, people are just going to have to accept that this is going to happen in some form or fashion.

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FLY DANY!

FLY TO THE LAND OF MAKE SENSE! FLY TO THE BOOKS, THE BOOKS YOU SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ADAPTED FROM!

I get that you are not happy with the show but cmon can you give it a rest? You aren't contributing anything at all except taking up space with these whining rants. Its pretty obnoxious.

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I was heartbroken that Dany was 'tested' a few times with what she would do to save Jorah...and I felt like, ultimately, she wouldn't lift a finger. :bawl: There was more than once where even if she had shouted out, it would have been too late to save him(if something else hadn't intervened). I was a little worried that he was just going to quit fighting. I can't imagine how bereft he must have felt knowing she didn't care enough to save him. :crying: I know he betrayed her and hurt her, but I feel that she betrayed him tonight. He doesn't owe her anything anymore.



On the plus side, at least I think she had forgiven him at the end. We probably won't be dealing with that this season though. She has to find a way to cure the greyscale.



Everyone else has already expressed everything about Shireen. My stream was choppy - was Shireen sacrificed because otherwise the whole army would have starved there? Or was it a lesser reason than that?


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If Jon is somehow revived through Shireens sacrifice or through the red god I truly think I will be done with the show and book. The only truly good character left cannot be affiliated with the red God or Mel, evil bastards. The others look like the only reasonable characters in this whole show now. I'm now hoping the last scene is Jon awakening to reveal blue eyes.

There are no actual gods. They are all myths and legends that have been built up around magic. Look at the Old Gods, they are just Greenseers that went into the trees. Pretty much all the magic we see requires the same thing: sacrifice, be it of blood or a life.

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i never reall thought of Stannis as a good guy in the books but they started making him likeable in the show, loving father and then he did this to Shireen. I am hoping that it was a glamour with Davos but who knows? I suppose it was real. The girls in this show cannot seem to catch a break unless they are name Dany.

Nah no way it's a glamor, nothing like glamors have even been mentioned in the show. The closest thing would be the faceless men and that wouldn't make sense for a lot of reason, first and foremost they'd probably need to kill Shireen to get the face thus destroying the point.

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Gutted about Shireen. It's actually made the rest of the episode somewhat fuzzy in my mind. As for whether D&D wrote that scene, specifically with Stan there, as a result of insider knowledge from GRRM, we'll soon find out. I'm sure the media will be all over this episode, with all the uproar regarding previous episodes. If D&D ambiguously put GRRM in the hotseat during this Behind the Scenes piece, I'm sure they'll be willing to clarify further once the outcry starts.


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I might have the wrong impression about this but I always envisioned Stannis burning Shireen as the last act in his fall. If they have moved it up this much, I figure Stannis will be dying soon.



It looks like instead of Daenerys v. Aegon --> Daenerys v. Stannis --> Daenerys v. the Others, it will just be Daenerys v. Others.


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Ugh horrible episode. Sooooo pissed, after the greatness of last week they managed to make me hate almost everyone. Stannis-ruined, Unsullied-obviously not the fighters they are supposed to be, Ellaria and Sand Snakes- just get the hell off the screen, Ramsey sets shit on fire and we don't see how it could have happened. Effing weak D and D, just crap.

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Quick thought:



Hizdaah was late coming to the box seats, saying he had to make sure everything was taken care of. I assumed that meant preparing for the SoH attack. If he wasn't involved, then what was he taking care of? Maybe sending someone to check on the other two dragons? Since we now know Trystane is going to King's Landing to take Oberyn's seat (won't that be a surprise to Kevan?), who is going to release the other two?



Even if GRRM confirmed Shireen would burn, it still doesn't add up to book logic. Are D&D now correcting things GRRM wishes he had done the first time (ie - writing one's self into a corner)?



Cannot wait to see how the vote on this episode goes. It's the first 9th episode that has left me with a WTF? instead of an OMG!


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