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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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All that said: Show Stannis actually *should* have backed down. He proved he can learn from his mistakes and even admitted it to Melisandre.

This is literally my only gripe with the burning of Shireen in this episode. I can see book Stannis doing it, assuming logistical issues are sorted. But it didn't seem like something HBOStannis would agree to.

The rest of the episode was weak, especially Dorne. Daznak's pit was underwhelming - but that was likely due to still trying to decide how I felt about the burning. A rewatch is needed

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Speaking calmly before i laugh my ass off again...



Some time will have to pass after the battle of winterfell and some great writting will have to appear so that Stannis burns his daughter in the books, truly some good writting or i'm seeing Jon becoming the ultimate villain and Mace tyrell getting the IT in the end...



Search for all Stannis quotes and moments in the books and then see this episode, even if you don't like the character... it makes no sense as of now... again it's like Jon waking up of a coma in WOW and wanting to kill the living as a Night's King servant out of free will...


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- Glad that Mace wasn't killed by Ser Meryn. ShowMace is less interesting than his admittedly less visible book counterpart, but I'd be sorry to see him go at this point.

IDK, after hearing Mace sing for the banker, I was kind of hoping Trant would have ran him through.

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Does no one find it interesting that the episode title was a Dance with Dragons but there is no focus on the living Targaryens (since there is no Aegon) destroying themselves by pitting their interest against one another. The lesson of the prior Dance was that the quest for the throne out of the sense of entitlement destroyed a legacy, and that what Stannis did tonight.



Maybe the second Dance with Dragons that is promised to be in the coming books will not focus on the Targaryens after all


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I'll admit I'm a little worried about D&D's and GRRM's collaborative relationship in the future. I could see Martin getting pissed that D&D blatantly confirmed what is coming in an unreleased book unless for some reason he gave them permission. But why would he share anything else with them? I ask this as a concerned show fan.

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I have a Dragon and I am not afraid to use it!

Even though I know what was coming from the books, this was what I was waiting for the whole season. I feared they ruin it. They executed it perfectly, well a little bit on the cheesy side of course...

But I loved it. "Vla" and I was in front of the TV clapping for excitement. Had been forever that I felt like this when watching a TV show. Though it could have used more fire!

My girl friend was like "OH NO!!!! These bastards are killing Dany Off!!!! Screw them! I am not watching anymore!!!!". I tried to keep a poker face.

She had tears in her eyes of joy when Dany said "Vla". No subtitles needed to know what that meant.

The rest of the episode of course was keeping a low profile and had the expected sacrifice of Stannis' daughter. we all know was coming since they spoiled it in the season teaser with her mother on her knees, so the last scene has more impact. And they built the tension up extremely well, lulling in you a bit in Dany's arc for the big pay off.

So I am giving a 10 out of 10 here. Beats even the Hardhome battle.

I have no clue how they going to beat E08 and E09 in the season finale. Well some WoW spoiler probably in the Stannis battle (well Stannis is toast, we won't see him next year). Also I assume they are going beyond Jon's death and not making it a cliffhanger. Hope they are not bringing Lady Stoneheart in here, judging from the episodes title.

I have been waiting all season to see this as well. Loved it but at the end I was getting worried they were gonna change it and kill Drogon as the spears kept hitting.

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I was about to post a thought about this.

The way Dillane played the scene was, it seemed to me, to give his character a bit of the crazy. Even someone convinced this was his only choice would show some emotion at the loss of a daughter - but he showed none. See the mothers reaction as an example. She thought it was a good idea at first and had never shown love for her daughter but her mom DNA kicked in and she wanted to protect her child.

So my question is, is it possible Stannis is going a bit mad? I haven't read the books so this is an outsiders observation. Just curious if the learned think it's possible.

He might be getting more than retina burn from all this staring into flames.

He definitely looked in pain when watching he burning. It was the build up to it where he seemed far too calm for me.

But I agree that during the burning he had a haunted, pained look to him.

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I don't think they'll have Arya go Mercy at all. It would be too obvious of a direction.

Honestly, I think Jaqen will get in the way of Trant being killed. Trant will probably escape alive, having not interacted with Arya whatsoever.

They spent half of Arya's scenes having her oggled, groped or having Trant's preference for young girls highlighted. There is no way they would spend so much time on it if the point wasn't to give Arya an idea.

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My brother! I couldn't agree/not really know more! At least this is happening in real time. Tolkien had his son's approval ... for what happened in those movies. Martin still can conjure his own vision. I like being a spectator in 2 visions of a story that, 1: I never thought would be finished... and 2: That might be finished in disparate ways. Mead is good! Mead helps me compare HBO/Martin, to Gretzky/Lemieux! Sorry! Too much Mead, too much Pittsburgh!


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Stannis was never going to be a good guy. Readers who thought that were revealing something about themselves. It certainly isn't in the narrative. He feels he has never received his due. He will do anything to be in control. Now, the show script may not have developed his transition at the moment he sees he is about to starve outside of Winterfell, but the logic concerning his burning Shireen fits with his behavior to date. Killing his brother with a shadow baby. Come on. The worst his little brother did was challenge him: don't challenge Stannis. He doesn't react well to losing face even.

I'm not entirely surprised. The show's pacing is way off, but I doubt very much D&D would have allowed Stannis to do this if it did not fit with where the books are going.

People are going to be massively disappointed if they think the books will be fundamentally different from the show in the end. There may be many short cuts, but the whole point of the initial meeting D&D had with Martin was to make sure they understood his central themes.

No one is good or bad in these books. Everyone is a mix. The more characters contradict their earlier actions, the more Martinesque they become.

No one will hold the iron throne.

Humans may not even survive. I'd expect darn near anything. Isn't that what most readers say?

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I think this is the problem. DD simply don't respect GRRM's work.

See, this is something I see many people do about fantasy. Like, how LotR, for instance, is immediately catalogued as "for children" because there is magic and epic battles. Or how many times animation is just labeled as simple entertainment due to the medium. I've fought those stereotypes all my life as much as I've fought the idea that because I'm religious I'm a fanatic freak. All my life I've heard stuff like "so, you read HP? How immature!". Things are changing now, people is more open about adults enjoying what we can call "not traditional adult" entertaining but there will be some idiots here and there that won't give fantasy or sci-fi the respect it deserves.

Martin doesn't give his books this "solemn" aspect as other epic sagas have. The guy has no problem with also showing tits and shit. Nevertheless, he's still an author. I mean, he didn't write Jaime because he thought "you know what would be hilarious?! write about a guy who loses his hand and fuck his sister!". There is a point he wants to make with Jaime, how "honour" is a concept that you can't simply blindly obey. Idem for Jon, Dany, Stannis, Cersei and everybody else. They aren't just "characters". They are concepts. They are given an identity because you cannot simply write about and abstract idea. Just like, dunno, Othello is about jealousy but there are still characters driving the plot. Even Stefanie Meyer wants to make a point (one she fails making, but still tries), as Twilight saga is about themes of female virginity, lust, etc, etc.

And D&D themselves have said they don't mind about those themes. We mock those words but they are plainly saying "we don't mind that these characters talk about GRRM's points. We don't care about his points. We only mind his characters to make them act shocking". Characters aren't hollow. They exist because the situation they are in NEEDS TO LET THE READERS KNOW what's the author's beliefs about something. I don't make a character being a rapist because I want him to be a rapist and I think it would be cool to make him rape a character. I want him to rape another person because such action talks about something else within his mind and soul: maybe he was abused. Maybe he's crazy. Maybe he needs to represent male lust when it's not controlled, who the f knows. That's why characters need themes. Characters REPRESENT themes. That's how they go through history. Samwise isn't know because he was Frodo's gardener, but because he was LOYAL. He represented LOYALTY. That is HIS ROLE in LotR. He's not there to do stuff. He's there to fulfill an idea. He, and every other characters are full with comparisons, symbolism and figurative speech. DD have simply took everything from them and made them sock puppets to play parts in situations that are just similar to what happens in the books.

TL;dr . I thought you stopped watching the show. You've been adamant about not watching the show and trying to ruin it for the viewers. So now you are watching the show? Your trolling is tiresome. Edited by I'm_Tim

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Well, the worst thing about this is the fact that fire is HER weapon, so for a second, I thought she started the fires.

Maybe she allowed Ramsey to succeed so that Stannis would be desperate enough to burn Shireen.

I thought the same thing too at first.

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I really think that's the worst game of thrones episode ever. After last week when I said episode 8 was the best I've seen we are gifted with a giant abyss between the last two episodes.

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I really think that's the worst game of thrones episode ever. After last week when I said episode 8 was the best I've seen we are gifted with a giant abyss between the last two episodes.

Me too. It's hard to believe episode 8 was real. A lovely gem gleaming in a hot pile of moist, human feces.

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FFS, most Stannis fans like myself are mad that they did this so damn early. To get Winterfell? He burns his daughter? Please....

This is an indication that Stannis will die much sooner in the show than in the books. Heck, I have a feeling that the show will kill Stannis next week (by Brienne most likely). I myself hope they go ahead and be done with it. They already butchered the character.

i think i agree now....time for Stannis to go...i cried watching this episode which has never happened before....and Brienne being the one to do it would be fantastic

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I love the sound of Stannis lovers whining about their hero. Smells like victory...



Of course Stannis is going to burn Shireen in the books. It was obvious from the first scene where Mel burns the idols. Stannis has been an evil character since before he murdered his brother with the shadow baby. Shame on you folk for liking such a monster.



GRRM said that four characters die in this season that are alive in the books. But he didn't say anything about them surviving in the next book.



Stannis is the last of the Baratheon line and he clearly isn't fit for the throne morally. We now have a battle for winterfell between two of the worst baddies in the books.



Oh and that littlefinger chap isn't nice either and probably doesn't much care what happens to Sansa.


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That whole Stannis/Mel scene from back in season 2 after Stannis lost finally came true.



"You will betray the man serving you. You will betray your family. You will betray everything you once held dear and it will all be worth it because you are the son of fire. You are the warrior of light."



Still, I am pretty bummed that Stannis really went through with this. Ugh. Well I can't root for show Stannis anymore. Still rooting pretty hard for book Stannis though.


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