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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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Well, he's more like 1/4. Anyway, I was saying that Joffrey and Sansa was such a marriage.

Well they were never married, and Joff is not a Baratheon

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Stannis is an evil man even in the books, get over it, fanboys.

I really don't get how fans of this books can be so blind when it comes to shades of grey.

Edited by Ironkiller

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I HIGHLY doubt that Stannis, if involved in the burning, will do it for sake of being the king and not for the greater good. They tried to emphacise that point in the show too (HORRIBLY done) and to make it a more morally grey act (failing hard in the process), so I believe that if does burn her in the books it will be done in a proper manner.

Also, book Stannis knows that killing your own daughter will imediatly stop any support you might recieve, so...

I'm not sure what the "greater good" would be. He burns people to gain power, kills his own brother with dark magic, worships a different god - these are all things that you don't do in this timeline. He's pretty much gone to the dark side.

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Stannis is an evil man even in the books, get over it, fanboys.

True. When we meet the guy he's burning people alive. He wanted to kill Edric Storm in the books. He burnt men who were loyal to his hopeless claim because they worshipped the wrong gods. Not too surprising he'd burn his daughter alive when things turn south.

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Stannis is an evil man even in the books, get over it, fanboys.

The fanboys are trying hard to portray Stannis as anything but. Even if in the books he isnt directly involved he will have some say or knowledge of it, and not stop it. He's like Charles Manson...not directly involved but thinks his atrocities will lead to something..Stannis as whatever the red witch tells him to think he is...and manson for his helter skelter motive where he leads a people of 144.

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Yes, but that was before Ned learned the truth, and it came out.

Ok, you're right. Joffrey technically is not.

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Well they were never married, and Joff is not a Baratheon

Until proven otherwise, he is a Baratheon by law.

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I'm not sure what the "greater good" would be. He burns people to gain power, kills his own brother with dark magic, worships a different god - these are all things that you don't do in this timeline. He's pretty much gone to the dark side.

He burned people he considered criminals and traitors. He is the king, it's in his power to do so. In his point of view, Renly deserved death.

I don't recall any moment in the books so far that he killed someone he believed was innocent.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that he is some kind of saint, but he has his sense of justice, and killing Shireen goes completely against it.

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He burned people he considered criminals and traitors. He is the king, it's in his power to do so. In his point of view, Renly deserved death.

I don't recall any moment in the books so far that he killed someone he believed was innocent.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that he is some kind of saint, but he has his sense of justice, and killing Shireen goes completely against it.

Well, in his point of view, this is his destiny. That's why I said that he's gone to the dark side. The whole thing might start with the right intention, but slowly, the madness has become him! :devil: Whahahahahaha...

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Just remembered there's that line of Stannis where he remarks about Gilly and Craster- her own father!


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Good thing they not only got ahead of the books but intentionally confirmed it's coming in the books in a half-assed attempt to avoid backlash.

Complete spoiler. No uncertainty or anything. Thanks guys! Keep it coming. Pricks.

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The point is to show how deluded Stannis is by Melisandre And what someone who follows a religious fanatic telling them not only are you rightful King but the savior of mankind. And what they are willing to do.

http://youtu.be/NfLScJVXBHQ

I can buy that as an explanation. It just feels like such a betrayal of what I thought that character was about. I assumed there was a lot more to Stannis then just an idiot duped by a psycho into burning his child alive. Yep, feels like a waste to me.

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So is Trystane gonna get ambushed on the way back to KL? I don't recall Doran mentioning a journey back by sea. Really digging that plot.

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Either Stannis gives the order or not, the point is he does go thru with it. This is who Stannis is - he would do anything to be king.

I feel that some of you do not get Stannis. He knows joffrey and his siblings are bastards,hence not the heirs to the throne. So by rights the kingship goes to Stannis. He is just doing as the laws suggest he should do. Renly had no right to declare for the crown since he was the younger brother. What I'm trying to get across is that Stannis is doing his duty, not that he just wants to be King. So no like you said that is not just who Stannis is... just killing family members because he selfishly wants to be king.

I highly doubt Stannis gives the order or just let's it happen. Like multiple people have said Stannis and Shireen are leagues apart. It makes more sense that Mel and Selyse take matters into their own hands. It had also been pointed out that Stannis explicitly states to appoint Shireen as queen should he die.

Even if Stannis is involved at least Grrm will give a better reason than the show gave. And what I gather is that D&D just knew that she got burned.

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I was so scared for a second for Arya in that brothel... I loved that scene.



So somehow Shireen will die in the books and the show did it in a way which has more impact and keeps Stannis as a stubborn character, I did want to slap Melissandre's little grin off after she burned Shireen, I accept what happened but c'mon, you just saw the little girl who you've known for who knows how long die, yeah it furthered your motivations but still. Props to Carice and the actress who played Shireen, her screams and yells for help were striking.



Again, Olly will surely stab Jon. Between him and Cersei, they'll deliver a solid finale. Maybe with Sansa too.



The Dany scene was entertaining, I guess this is what you expected to see on a fantasy show ever since the dragons were hatched. The stadium looked great considering it's a TV show, one with a huge budget but still it's impressive they pulled it off. Another time when Tyrion got off by a hair, realistically he would have been killed in such mess but he's precious Tyrion, of course he survives that attack sitting and standing at the edge of the stage. I did enjoy the dialect between Tyrion, Dario and Hizdahr (glad he's dead). Too many face shots of Danny, give her wider shots or something.


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Hey all it's me again to explain why this episode was terrible! And after a decent last episode, the show quickly returned to being utter garbage. And holy crap was this episode bad.



-WHY DID JON AND THE WILDLINGS MARCH RIGHT UP TO CASTLE BLACKS WALL. I assume Eastwatch no longer exists in the show despite being mentioned before. D&D write all these inconsistencies and logical failures, yet never seem to care.



-Oh look it's Olly again, truly the most amazing and subtle character in the series. D&D are such masters with their original content. Olly is the most important character in this series me thinks given how much he appears



-So it seems they're setting up Jon to (try to) go south to "send stannis supplies and reinforcements" instead of the pink letter. Way to go, D&D, ruining any real tension or stakes in Jon's motivation for breaking the Watch's neutrality.



-Stannis keeping his family around still makes no sense. Non-stupid book Stannis leaves them back at Castle Black because he's again, not dumb



-Doran basically explains why D&D's Dorne-Jaime plot makes NO SENSE, and he isn't the first one to have done this. And once again, Jaime's attempt to "rebuke" the logical failures here is again complete bullshit. This entire plot was completely unnecessary, Doran just gives her up and is clearly willing to maintain peace. So long character journey in the Riverlands, hello Cringe Snakes and XD BEWBS



-Mycrella and Trystane are such shit characters, not surprising since they're both basically D&D creations by this point. Tedious, cliched, irritating, and ultimately useless parodies of their archetypes. Moreover D&D in their infinite wisdom had MASTER PLANNER Doran give (in the show) his only heir over to the Lannisters for LITERALLY no goddamned reason, Trystane would be a fucking awful small council member (he's a retard) and even if he was brilliant it would still be an awful decision. Doran willingly and unnecessarily did what Balon Greyjoy did with a sword to his neck, give his son over as an essential hostage. BRAVA D&D.



-The Cringe Snakes return in all their glory. XD LEL SLAPPING GAMES AND SEX REFERENCES. And another awful and nonsensical diatribe that is supposed to sound like a brilliant metaphor but ultimately is meaningless. Reminder this is what we're getting instead of real Dorne intrigue like in the books



-Arya plot is still sex. Oysters and sexual harassment instead of going fucking blind and having some real goddamned character development. You know a plot is awful when the lackluster Arya AFFC plot is literally War and Peace compared to this crap.



-Mace Tyrell being in Braavos still makes no sense. Trant being with him makes no sense. None of this makes any sense. On top of that they're still making Mace out to be full-fledged developmentally disabled. Book Mace is no rocket scientist, but it isn't NEARLY this bad and he isn't just a complete comic relief character. why can't D&D understand not everything has to be one way or the other?



-And lel, Ser Meryn Trant. The latest victim of D&D's character assassination. Yes in the books he's an asshole and Cersei's creature, but he's still shown to be a respectable and capable knight who isn't needlessly awful instead of this foul mouthed grumpy pedophile. It's like D&D realized he was associated with Cersei and Syrio so they immediately thought of the worst shit they could to make him a "bad guy".



-Did you ever notice whenever Arya is in 1 of apparently 2 rooms in the House of the Undying, someone is ALWAYS getting assisted suicide there? Like holy crap in the books this happens to but not every instance you see the House. This place must be the Essos version of Auschwitz or something with how many people they must be killing. D&D again show how simple they ultimately are, they associated one trait with this place and just keep repeating it over and over to remind the audience what it is.



-Doran the master planner and the Great Dornish Conspiracy seems pretty much out the window now. Especially with no Aegon in the show. Instead he's just a bitch to the Lannisters and hurrrr war iz bad. D&D kept the Dorne plot for some reason, yet saw fit to cut out all of its most important characters, completely rework it into something fillerish and unnecessary, and then take away any future implications from it. Once more, Bravo D&D.



-Ellaria gives a speech on gay rights to Jaime out of nowhere. D&D probably thought this was an oh-so-subtle and brilliant hint at contemporary gay marriage debate (much like the changes to Loras/Faith plot) but it was just so stupid and illogical in its own setting. This is why contemporary politics need to stay out of the story. First off, tons of Lords have paramours (aka mistresses) in the rest of Westeros. Second, people DO bat an eye at Oberyn's relationship with Ellaria in Dorne and it's even plainly stated as much in the books. Dorne still follows the Faith of the Seven, they're predominately Rhyonar but still have heavy Andal (and First Men) influence, and they're not a completely different world from central/northern Westeros. Just like how Italy/Spain but culturally different from France, but not night and day. D&D think Dorne is some gay rights utopia when IRL they're just marginally more tolerant and believe women should have a stake in secession because of Nymeria's influence on their society. THAT'S IT. And THIRD, people DID "bat an eye" at Targaryen incest, or did you just forget the entire Faith Militant Uprising you dumb hacks.



-Stannis doesn't know what the Dance of the Dragons is. Mind you this is probably the bloodiest war in Westerosi history (and certainly the bloodiest in post-conquest Westerosi history). This is literally like General Petraeus saying he never heard of WW2. First D&D make Stannis into some dumby, then they go and make him Emperor Palptine (AND SEE NEXT)



-HO BOY. Burning Shireen at the stake. There waso so much wrong here it hurts my head to think about. First after spending the season making Stannis into a nice guy and repairing their demonization campaign against him for the last 2 seasons, they completely wreck it all. What was the point of adding in that Shireen-Stannis wuv scene if all they did was squander it? Why do D&D INSIST on making Stannis the anti-christ incarnate? We're back to RHOLLOR HUNGERS in a big way. And on top of that, while book Stannis wouldn't even consider this shit, she's his heir and he literally says she's the only one who can succeed him in the books. And the only fucking Baratheon who would consider burning Shireen (Queen Selyse, who is implied to have the desire to sacrifice Shireen in the books) is the one who is actually AGAINST it in the show. TOP FUCKING KEKS. Wtf are with D&D and their insistence to do the opposite of anything right?



-What's the point of the Fighting Pits being reopened when there is literally no war with Yunkai and they already surrendered? The Sons of the Harpy haven't stopped either, so there's no point there. These types of concessions make no goddamn sense in the show setting, but since D&D cherrypick shit from the books for their god-awful show it just creates more of these logic holes.



-We have Saint Tyrion once more in all his glory. Omg he talks down Hizdhar on his Ghiscari Privlege and violence isn't the answer. You know what was fucking good in ADWD? Tyrion was morally ambiguous, he straight up gleefully murders someone out of spite in Slaver's Bay, while gloating "a Lannister always pays his debts" like a serial killer. Yet because Peter Dinklage is a bigshot and Tyrion is beloved by the fanbase D&D make him into a mary sue here.



-Hizdhar is so awful in this adaptation. Yes he's a slimy ass in the books, but he isn't a moron who is just used as comic relief or the foil for Dany's STRNK WYMZ BLOOD OF THE DRAGONZ speeches. He actually has a sinister and cunning nature to him and isn't fucking wasted. D&D killed him off after he did literally nothing for no goddamn reason here because they apparently don't understand their own source material, much like Barristan.



-LEL, THIS FIGHT SCENE. None of this makes sense. Why do the Sons do this? Why kill Dany like this? Why not be subtle about it and work within your own network for a stealth-kill (SEE THE BOOKS ON HOW THIS IS DONE, D&D). And why are the Sons murdering random people? How did they get in here with those big goddamn masks? And most of all, WHY ARE THERE 5 MILLION OF THEM. They literally occupy this while arena and own Dany's Unsullied (again). Then if this mess isn't enough, they see to it to ruin the entire Drogon-return scene. Drogon does not appear as an unstoppable force of terror that sends Meereen into a panic and sows needless death, but as the noble rescuer. He's Han Solo at the Death Star if he was magically summoned by Luke. It's a joyous "yahhhh!" moment when Drogon arrives in the show, whereas in the books it's an "oh shit" moment. And then D&D just drop the whole not being able to control her own dragons subplot, after already introducing it.



I knew the shoe was beyond saving despite Hardholm being passable, but D&D are back in all their glory here. I'll be back next week. Reminder that the show has been shit since season 2 and the books are better!


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