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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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Not gonna lie, I totally bawled my eyes out at the Shireen scene. That actor is just so adorable, and she's so committed to helping her dad even though she's not even highly respected in the family. I actually thought Stannis had told Shireen when he said "forgive me" and seeing her being walked to the pyre before she realised what was going on, I kind of just thought she knew. So then seeing her react and I realised she must not have been told, it just got to me so much. She was absolutely terrified and upset and just wanted her parents, god even talking about it now makes me feel upset. I've already watched the "inside episode 9" youtube video and breifly rewatching the scene I already started to tear up loll. Plus those screams of terror and pain are just spine chilling.

This scene turned my stomach more than any other on Game of Thrones. I couldn't really enjoy the Drogon scene because I was still thinking about it. After all GoT has done, I still thought that Stannis or Davos would save her.

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I find it hilarious that all of the Stannis fanboys keep saying 'never in a million years would he do this' and others who think differently 'clearly don't understand him and haven't paid attention to him while reading the books'.

LOL just stop. He killed his brother, other family members, and wanted to kill his nephew. D&D literally said GRRM told us this was going to happen in the book so we put it in. How you can still blindly make these claims is perplexing. There is so much pointing at this happening in TWOW it's silly.

Stannis killed his brother who was in open rebellion. And he wasn't really upset about not getting to kill his bastard nephew. I find it very hard to believe that Mr. Rule of Law Stannis in the books would burn his daughter who he clearly loved. In the books it is going to happen without Stannis' approval. The issue is not that Shireen was murdered, that would be bad enough, the issue is that it is her father who gave the order.

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When they talk about how George mentioned this[i/], they were referring to Stannis's decision to burn Shireen.

Lol how do you know?

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LOL at the fandom right now.

1. Certain fans: "STANNIS BURNING SHIREEN IS OFF-BOOK TRASH, HOW DARE D&D, THEY HAVE FUNDAMENTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD BOOK STANNIS' CHARACTER, GRRM WOULD NEVAH"

2. D&D: "George told us this happens."

3. Certain fans:

A. D&D ARE FILTHY LIARS, GRRM WOULD NEVAH, or

B. If GRRM does it, it will be SUPER AMAZING and WILL TOTALLY MAKE SENSE and WILL BE TOTALLY CONSISTENT WITH BOOK STANNIS' CHARACTER

Oh shatap, you Stannis haters take the word "this" for whatever you want it to mean.

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Oh shatap, you Stannis haters take the word "this" for whatever you want it to mean.

I agree that people are going ott with their responses, but D&D are clearly referring to Stannis' decision to burn Shireen when they say 'this', not just to her being burned.

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What about if you all stop worrying whether I watch or not the show and try to use better defences than "if you don't like it, don't see it!".

Again, GoT is a very popular show that has a terrible portrayal of women. It deserves criticism and hard. If I see an offensive billboard on the street, I'm suppose to simply shut my eyes? No. Believe me. I live in a place with shows that are 1000% more offensives than GoT. For years, people has been saying "if you don't like it, don't watch it, then!". And guess what? We have even more offensive shows that portray racism and homophobia in a positive light and people still says "if you don't like it, don't see it!".

A citizen of the United States of the Offended.

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Amidst all the inexplicable critical acclaim that I've been reading for this episode, here's a refreshing feminist critique by one of the top TV critics in the business:

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/08/game_of_thrones_recap_there_is_no_commodity_in_westeros_more_valuable_and_more_worthless_than_a_girl/

“Game of Thrones” is obsessed with reminding its audience that a woman’s work is never done, that her body is never her own, that her life is never safe, and each time the audience pushes back against the idea that such depictions are a foregone conclusion, they are informed that it is the way of the world they themselves live in and painting the world any other way would be disingenuous. Don’t shed tears for Shireen Baratheon. Shireen has finally slipped free of the chains that bound her to a world always doomed to betray her. Save your tears instead for all the women left in Westeros who have only the worst to come. Or, better yet, save your tears for yourself, because the men running “Game of Thrones” don’t think you’re looking into a TV screen; they think you’re looking into a mirror.

I don't entirely agree with her assessment but it's refreshing to see a professional reviewer hold D&D's feet to the fire.

Edited by Takyon

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Pretty much all of the recurring/"notable" female characters have suffered immensely by death or sexual violence or mutilation, or have been sexualized, except for Arya. Correct? I can't think of anyone else.


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Pretty much all of the recurring/"notable" female characters have suffered immensely by death or sexual violence or mutilation, or have been sexualized, except for Arya. Correct? I can't think of anyone else.

Just wait until she shows her inner-nymphet next episode.

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Just wait until she shows her inner-nymphet next episode.

There's a forcefield around the character, book and show, that prevents her from being seriously harmed or exploited. (And, yes, I've read Mercy.)

I don't think that forcefield will be breached any time soon.

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Pretty much all of the recurring/"notable" female characters have suffered immensely by death or sexual violence or mutilation, or have been sexualized, except for Arya. Correct? I can't think of anyone else.

Brienne, Sand snakes, Olenna and marg.. cant think of much more right now but yeah, still a minority.

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Do we all watch the same show and read the same books?



It's not just women who are suffering in this series.



How many men were forced to marry for the family? How many are sent off to foster with strangers for the family? How many are sent off to war as children? How many references in the series are there about so and so and his affinity for boys? There are male prostitutes, male slaves...


I seem to remember a certain Greyjoy getting flayed. Some Stark Lord getting burned to death while his son watched and strangled himself to death trying to help him.



The series kills, tortures and destroys everyone, little by little everyone pays the price.



Take your morals and use them in real life and fix injustices in real life and leave the fantasy world alone.


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Anyone else think that Arya WON'T pose as a prostitute next episode?

They made it pretty clear in the episode that the woman wanted her away from the brothel, and I don't think she'll magically change her mind.

All signs point to yes, she will be seducing Meryn Trant. In this way, the show is better than the books because I dont have to envision a 12 year old macking on an old dude.

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Wall: FTW Set-up, Olie needs to be lobbed off the Wall by WunWun. Liking WunWun's presence and beyond Olie who's staring in our faces, I'm really struggling as to whether Thorne will be one of the stabbers because every line he speaks to Jon seems to indicate either possibility.

As many others have said, I think Thorne is basically Severus Snape. Total dick, but not a "bad guy." I hate Ollie's character, not in itself like others do (though he can be obnoxious), but because book!Bowen Marsh was a better character for that role. The long-time Lord Steward of the Night's Watch, wanting to do what's right but horrified by Jon Snow's radical moves? Even though he's wrong,* continuing to focus too much on Wildlings when there are friggin' Whitewalkers and wights coming, you still sympathize with him to a degree. The image from the book when he says, "For the Watch," with tears in his eyes at the betrayal he is about to commit, is burned in my mind. Ollie instead committing the betrayal because of "me mum and dad" just doesn't have nearly the same effect. Marsh and Co. weren't just angry and vengeful; they had solid (if misguided) reasons.

With show!Marsh marginalized and show!Thorne still at Castle Black instead of on a ranging, Thorne gets a lot of book!Marsh's lines of warning. It makes me think that maybe he will take Marsh's place in FTW, but I still wouldn't predict that.

*Up until Jon's Pink Letter reaction, which is much more debatable. I'm more referring to the general attitude against Jon's preparations for the WW.

Edited by Adeimantus

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Do we all watch the same show and read the same books?

It's not just women who are suffering in this series.

How many men were forced to marry for the family? How many are sent off to foster with strangers for the family? How many are sent off to war as children? How many references in the series are there about so and so and his affinity for boys? There are male prostitutes, male slaves...

I seem to remember a certain Greyjoy getting flayed. Some Stark Lord getting burned to death while his son watched and strangled himself to death trying to help him.

The series kills, tortures and destroys everyone, little by little everyone pays the price.

Take your morals and use them in real life and fix injustices in real life and leave the fantasy world alone.

I usually would agree with you. In the books, I do. Men have it as bad as women, and that also happened in the medieval times as well. Being born with a penis meant you were thrown into a battle whose cause you did not even believe and probably die for it.

But GoT has changed EVERY SINGLE FEMALE CHARACTER into a cliché. ALL OF THEM. There is not one single female that remains unchanged from the books, all of them are either violent, dumb or rape victims. And about the men, they turned mostly of the actions from men who are a bit progressive about women into "rapists!" or whitewashed their crimes. So, no, they don't deserve a pass.

I mean, consider this. There are three Greyjoy Uncles:

Aeron, The Fanatic

Victarion, The lovable Dumb

Euron, the one who invaded the Shield Islands and got his men to rape the daughters of the Lord they defeated and also sexually abused his younger brothers.

Guess which of them they are casting for next season?

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I agree that people are going ott with their responses, but D&D are clearly referring to Stannis' decision to burn Shireen when they say 'this', not just to her being burned.

Maybe I missed something but I dont see how "this" imply that its Stannis doing, then again, I think most book reader knew shireen was to be burned (mel seems to have wanted it for a while now) but D&D were really that shocked when George told them? Is it the implication of Stannis that shocked them?

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I usually would agree with you. In the books, I do. Men have it as bad as women, and that also happened in the medieval times as well. Being born with a penis meant you were thrown into a battle whose cause you did not even believe and probably die for it.

But GoT has changed EVERY SINGLE FEMALE CHARACTER into a cliché. ALL OF THEM. There is not one single female that remains unchanged from the books, all of them are either violent, dumb or rape victims. And about the men, they turned mostly of the actions from men who are a bit progressive about women into "rapists!" or whitewashed their crimes. So, no, they don't deserve a pass.

I mean, consider this. There are three Greyjoy Uncles:

Aeron, The Fanatic

Victarion, The lovable Dumb

Euron, the one who invaded the Shield Islands and got his men to rape the daughters of the Lord they defeated and also sexually abused his younger brothers.

Guess which of them they are casting for next season?

Huh? That's what you get from Euron? They are casting him for obvious reasons, none of which involve rape. The guy is a sexy pirate wizard, of course he was gonna be in the show lol.

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I'll be really curious to see what the ratings are going forward. D&D must be REALLY confident in themselves, because they're REALLY pushing their luck this season.



-They did the Sansa thing, which has been "controversial" to say the least.


-They've done the Dorne plotline, which has just flat-out been disliked in general.


-Now they've done this.



I'm wondering if, should this continue, some people are just going to go "ok I'm done. Enough is enough."


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The Damphair's part is too small. And, really? Victarion "lovable dumb"? He beats his wife to death, keeps a tongueless woman as a whore and smacks her, on occassion. He doesnt care Kerwin gets raped (later has him killed), hates homosexuals, and he burns several young women alive.

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What about if you all stop worrying whether I watch or not the show and try to use better defences than "if you don't like it, don't see it!".

Again, GoT is a very popular show that has a terrible portrayal of women. It deserves criticism and hard. If I see an offensive billboard on the street, I'm suppose to simply shut my eyes? No. Believe me. I live in a place with shows that are 1000% more offensives than GoT. For years, people has been saying "if you don't like it, don't watch it, then!". And guess what? We have even more offensive shows that portray racism and homophobia in a positive light and people still says "if you don't like it, don't see it!".

I try not to respond to trolls because that's what they want but you make it really hard. Please stop. Nobody gives a f*ck if you watch the show or not.

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