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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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A lot of people do have a problem with the scene. Doran is sending his only heir to the place where both his sister and brother got killed and trusting only the word of the guy who horned his King and killed the other one. Sending Trystane along with Myrcella will give KL back the one important hostage they had and now they won a new one. Look how that end up for Sansa Stark :dunno: If next season, somehow, Dany joins Dorne, they will be neutralized by the fact KL can kill him at any moment. It's a very stupid move specially considering when Arianne asks his father to send her, Doran tells her "no, you're my heir and the future of Dorne. I cannot". He sends her to a very different mission.

The show spent several episodes establishing that Doran was smarter than the average bear and used silent cunning to develop plans over long periods of time. You think he just went "DUY DUY" and let Trystane go for no reason?

#1 Trystane serving on Small Council gives him experience and an inside track.

#2 Trystane will need guards so they will be the Sand Snakes who have had to swear allegiance to Doran. They go to KL and can do stealthy ninja shit at night.

#3 If anyone dares harm Trystane or make threats Doran will more than likely go to war. Trystane might die, but hey, who cares if Doran can claim the Iron Throne when they sack KL....poor...impoverished....undermanned King's Landing.

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Why was she promised to the Boltons?

Sansa Stark is wanted by the Iron Throne for regicide. The Boltons have an agreement with the Lannisters, marrying Sansa to Ramsay is an open declaration of defiance.

Why is Littlefinger marrying her to the Boltons? They aren't controllable. They don't need him, they have their own army and they're in Winterfell. Once she's married, she is out of his reach.

If he thinks they will lose to Stannis, why isn't he waiting until after the battle?

And, what's he going to do after Stannis wins, when he's supposed to provide Sansa's head on a spike? Why would Stannis make a deal with LF, he hates turncloaks and always hangs them.

The entire thing makes no sense except the show wanted to do it so they will force it to work out despite it's absolutely being illogical on the part of every player involved.

This. Can't agree more.

Bolton's are treacherous, and Lannisters are weak. Securing northmen > appeasing Lannisters.

All LF has to say is, Cersei is on her way out. Done and done.

Not that big of a stretch *at all*.


How on earth did giving Sansa to the Boltons "secured northmen"???

You know, I don't think it's the best character arc on the show, but I think the groundwork was laid in Season 4 when Sansa lied for Littlefinger to the Lords of the Vale (unprompted, btw). She has an odd relationship with LF as he saved her, and she saved him, and she trusts him, as is evident with the Brienne of Tarth moment in the inn, so she obeys him when he says to go to Winterfell. She trusted him. I think that was fairly believable.

I don't buy that LF was obsessed with her *for her*. He loved Cat, and that didn't stop him from orchestrating her downfall. LF isn't the type to love someone more than himself. So, plenty believable.

He didn't have "to love her more than himself" to not give her away to the Boltons, he could have just kept her.

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Ramsay is a psychotic, evil, sociopath, who revels in being the Patrick Bateman of Westeros. But he never pretends to be anything else.

He doesn't do it in the show either. That's DD's job, who, for some reason, believe Ramsay deserves a much spotlight than better character and more development :dunno:

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A lot of people do have a problem with the scene. Doran is sending his only heir to the place where both his sister and brother got killed and trusting only the word of the guy who horned his King and killed the other one. Sending Trystane along with Myrcella will give KL back the one important hostage they had and now they won a new one. Look how that end up for Sansa Stark :dunno: If next season, somehow, Dany joins Dorne, they will be neutralized by the fact KL can kill him at any moment. It's a very stupid move specially considering when Arianne asks his father to send her, Doran tells her "no, you're my heir and the future of Dorne. I cannot". He sends her to a very different mission.

Why do people keep assuming Trystane is going to KL alone, under the Lannister's power? Can't we assume Doran has some plan? Is it too much of a stretch to think that a healthy contingent of soldiers, a few sand snakes even, plus a lot of Dornish poison, will be accompanying him? I've agreed with all the criticism of the Dorne subplot up to this point, but come on.

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Ramsay is a psychotic, evil, sociopath, who revels in being the Patrick Bateman of Westeros. But he never pretends to be anything else.

He doesn't do it in the show either. That's DD's job, who, for some reason, believe Ramsay deserves a much spotlight than better character and more development :dunno:

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I've been thinking about if what D&D say is coming in TWOW gives us any clues to some of the ambiguous endings of Dance. Is it possible that the Pink Letter was written by Stannis and is code for Melisandre to burn Shireen? The letter is read. Jon is shanked. Shireen is sacrificed. Jon is brought back to life.

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Given how this season has turned out, I can just as easily see it as them misinterpreting GRRM's comments:



GRRM: "Yeah, Shireen gets burned in TWOW."



D&D: "OH REALLY! Wow Stannis really goes that far, interesting."



GRRM (after watching the episode): "Oh for goodness sake, I didn't say that Stannis was the one who does it guys, jeez."



And again, even if he does, that doesn't then mean that the scene suddenly automatically works on the show. The SHOW still failed to properly lead up to it in a lot of people's minds (including mine) and that won't change when TWOW comes out.


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Is there another site where rational fans of the books and show can discuss same without devolving into a D&D hate fest and whinefest about show spoiling books that probably won't even be finished?

Seriously. I used to love this site, but it's tit-for-tat with some of the same repetitive characters calling D&D pervs, idiots, etc. etc. etc. It's gotten personal against them, too, and it's sick.

Watchers on The Wall: http://watchersonthewall.com/

NeoGAF: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/index.php Just click onto Off Topic Discussions. You'll find 2 threads for GoT close to the top this time of year. One is for non book readers, the other is for book readers.

Flea Bottom Forum: http://www.fleabottom.net/ A very friendly easy-going site with a nifty chat on bottom half of page. I don't get there as much as I'd like to, as I am completely addicted to drama, and there's very little of that at Flea Bottom. :lol:

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I've been thinking about if what D&D say is coming in TWOW gives us any clues to some of the ambiguous endings of Dance. Is it possible that the Pink Letter was written by Stannis and is code for Melisandre to burn Shireen? The letter is read. Jon is shanked. Shireen is sacrificed. Jon is brought back to life.

Aww. Now I going to be scouring that damned letter for clues. :(

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Oops first post, sorry...

What I wanted to say, is how disenchanted I am with being spoon fed the plot "twists". This is the first season we have all had to basically watch as Unsullied, and I'd be ok with all the shock factor craziness if it were Actually shocking. The previously on segments destroy most of the possible shock value, not to mention the random name drops and referencing in episode. We all knew Shireen was dying, as much as we railed against, because of all the initial subtlety of the lead-up being referenced again, and again, and again. Same with Jorah and greyscale. Same with upcoming Stannis/Brienne face-off.

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You know, I don't think it's the best character arc on the show, but I think the groundwork was laid in Season 4 when Sansa lied for Littlefinger to the Lords of the Vale (unprompted, btw). She has an odd relationship with LF as he saved her, and she saved him, and she trusts him, as is evident with the Brienne of Tarth moment in the inn, so she obeys him when he says to go to Winterfell. She trusted him. I think that was fairly believable.

I don't buy that LF was obsessed with her *for her*. He loved Cat, and that didn't stop him from orchestrating her downfall. LF isn't the type to love someone more than himself. So, plenty believable.

That is only if you look at it as "LF wouldn't fuck sansa over because love duh" argument. If that's how you see it, then yes. But the truth is littlefinger would never bring sansa to winterfell because she's too important a piece in his game to hand over to someone else, and he would never do that. It's fucking retarded to think he would. At the very least, he would have waited until one army destroyed the other, but bringing her there before a huge battle/prolonged siege is fucking idiotic. That is the problem; littlefinger is not an idiot, but all his actions this season are the actions of a god damned idiot.

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Further thought:



- Did the show ever establish that Stannis cannot give more of himself for Mel's spells without dying? If they didn't, one could easily forgive a non-book reader for wondering why he can't make another couple Shadows instead of burning his only daughter.



- My original post was written before I'd seen the "Inside the Episode." Now that I've seen it: all they said was that "George told us about this." "This" is quite a vague term. Not that I don't believe that GRRM told them that Shireen burns (though it's possible he was only telling them about something he had once considered), but simple geography will keep that death from playing out the same way in the novels. Stannis could send word back to the Wall to burn Shireen; or Mel and Selyse could do it on their own, without Stannis's approval, to try and revive the supposedly dead Stannis; or Mel could do it without either parents' blessing, to save Stannis or Jon; or the wildlings who have embraced the red god might burn Shireen, with or without Mel, to save Jon, or stop the Others, or just to get rid of the "unclean" presence.



The point is, the circumstances will certainly be different, and I'm reasonably confident the writing will be better.



- Some people don't seem to understand the criticism of the Shireen storyline, or at least not some of it, so I will try to illustrate: I am bothered - horrified - by the thought of Arya losing her identity as Arya and becoming a faceless assassin for a death cult. That remains a very real possibility for her story. But if that happens, I will be horrified and disappointed in the character, because the writing has been so good, and Arya's development so believable, that such as shift would come off as a real decision by a fully fleshed-out character. Burning Shireen is horrifying, but it isn't believable or effective as storytelling, because it was so poorly handled (IMO) almost from the beginning.


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Burning Shireen is horrifying, but it isn't believable or effective as storytelling, because it was so poorly handled (IMO) almost from the beginning.

I don't recall bookShireen being fleshed out as a character. Most of her scenes (in my recollection) have her being Patchface's sidekick.

ShowShireen stole my heart in a way that bookShireen never did. And because I found myself adoring every scene she was in, I knew she was going to be a sacrificial lamb of sorts. I think her story was told well enough. And the repercussions to follow will be fascinating to witness.

I'll be sad if Shireen is burned in Winds of Winter, but nowhere as heartbroken as I'll be if Ghost is sacrificed...something I've been preparing myself for for 5 years.

In other words, I would cry for Ghost much like I cried for showShireen; bookShireen not so much.

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Oops first post, sorry...

What I wanted to say, is how disenchanted I am with being spoon fed the plot "twists". This is the first season we have all had to basically watch as Unsullied, and I'd be ok with all the shock factor craziness if it were Actually shocking. The previously on segments destroy most of the possible shock value, not to mention the random name drops and referencing in episode. We all knew Shireen was dying, as much as we railed against, because of all the initial subtlety of the lead-up being referenced again, and again, and again. Same with Jorah and greyscale. Same with upcoming Stannis/Brienne face-off.

Dont Call it a plot twist if you knew it was coming.

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D&D Said. Thats fantastic, youre playing Carrier Pigeon Whispers, relying on a conveyed message from D&D from GRRM. Did GRRM say Stannis burns her or did he say she is burnt? Two very different things. Yes she will burn. But she wont burn because Stannis has ordered it. Stannis is leagues away, caught in a blizzard. Possibly dead at very least cut off from all communication. How is he going to order the burning of his daughter? If it happens this way, its slopping writing from George and I will stand by my criticism in the unlikely event it does happen this way. But she wont be burned BY Stannis.

Book readers have thought that Shireen dies so Melisandre can rectify the events of "For the Watch". Many suspect that, that will take place next episode.

I wonder how the show watchers will feel if that is the case.

For the geography argument to work, you have to make the assumption that Shireen will be sacrificed soon, which is not necessarily the case. If Mel sacrifices her to counter FTW, then yes, Stannis would be too far away to have anything to do with that. However, if that doesn't happen and if Stannis is victorious at the Battle of Winterfell (or at least survives with most of his army), then there is enough time for Stannis to reunite with Mel and Co. It doesn't matter if that involves his army traveling back to the Wall or his family joining him as he goes farther south working to unite Westeros. Either way, it's a logistical possibility for book!Stannis to still sacrifice Shireen. It just depends how that event plays itself out in the books, which we don't know yet. For all we know, Shireen could survive through a third to half of book 6, plenty of time for her to reunite with him and for a new situation to arise that leaves Stannis and his army in dire straits (e.g. another major battle in Westeros or a major battle against the WW).

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So Shireen will probably burn, at a completely different time and in completely different circumstances, therefore it's totally the same as that retarded shit from last night with Rambomsay and Stannis The Fickle, and GRRM totally "told" D&D to include the burning at a point where it makes zero sense and defies any previous characterization, because they hadn't reached their Cheap Shock quota.

Maybe I'm weird as far as "book snobs" go but I have zero emotional involvement in any fictional characters, and I don't even have a particularly high idea of George Martin either as a writer or as a person. I just wish GoT was still a good story, instead of being written by morons for morons.

Edited by Facebookless Man

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Funny how the show manages to make Ramsay look not that bad at all.



I don't get it, are the other two dragons being fed at all?


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