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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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Well, at this point, I have to stop following this because its too much at this point to keep up with.

Being critical of D&D doesn't make anyone a hater. Getting personal with anyone is wrong. My biggest issue is that they could have pulled and examined other great material for fleshing out characters, but from the very beginning, they've been typcial Hollywood with its typcial emphasis on the sensational love affair with "shock."

D&D said from the very beginning that one of the reasons they wanted to do GOT was the Red Wedding.

Why?

Because of the nature of the scene. They wanted to be on the map for "OMG!!!!!!".

And then, as if the original materal wasn't gut wrenching enough, (as well as based upon a real historical event called the Black Dinner and the massacre of Glencoe), they had to throw in KING Robb bringing his wife, pregnant with possibly the next crown prince of the North into absolute enemy territory.

Just bringing her would have been an insult until the Frey girls were wedded well and probably at Robbs hand as a boon for the original insult.

So, while Martin drew from real history, it looks like D&D chose to pull from "Helter Skelter."

It's also telling that in the best Seasons, they needed GRRM to help write them. I would also point out that GRRM is actually a romantic, and for all the dark, he will justify it as only he can.

In regards to D&D, this point, I just find them cliche.'

tbh, I'm really torn between cursing D&D and sympathizing with them. Filming the last two books was always going to be impossible without rewriting them from scratch in a way that made sense for tv, yet put everyone back on track for season 6. You need very good writers for that, and this they didn't have. otoh, given good material, they do very well--see seasons 1-3. The shows fell off track when the novels did, so limiting the criticism to D&D isn't quite fair to them.

Edited by kimim

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tbh, I'm really torn between cursing D&D and sympathizing with them. Filming the last two books was always going to be impossible without rewriting them from scratch in a way that made sense for tv, yet put everyone back on track for season 6. You need very good writers for that, and this they didn't have. otoh, given good material, they do very well--see seasons 1-3. The shows fell off track when the novels did, so limiting the criticism to D&D isn't quite fair to them.

But, the worst failures of the show have been the things that the D's invented all on their own. Dorne is 100% Dan and Dave. And it sucks completely. George is not to be blamed for any of that, not the dialogue, or the plot.

Ramsay and his 20 man team decimating an army of 5000? That's the show. Littlefinger's insane decision to marry Sansa to Ramsay prior to the battle, the show. The strange set of trial circumstances, Loras is gay, all that is the show.

I also reject the idea that between the two novels there isn't enough material for one or one and half seasons of TV. There is. Even with the cuts. Though I think it's arguable that cutting all the riverlands stuff in favor of Dorne and Sansa in Winterfell was a huge mistake.

Nobody wants to see Brienne traveling around accomplishing nothing or Tyrion on the Viking tour of Essos...but to say that there couldnt have been a better adaptation between the two books is not true.

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I prefer this season of the show to the last two books.



If D&D were to do what the books did, we would have 10 episodes of tyrion asking strangers "hey where do whores go?"



The last two ASOIAF books were mediocre at best, with more filler then substance. GRRM has written himself into a corner that he can't possibly get out of without a whole lot of giant gaping plot holes. At least on the show they have a clear path and they are following it.



I thought the shireen burning was horrible, but I understand why they did it, I kept hoping for a twist where stannis would say stop and burn his wife instead, but much like AA he killed the person he loved the most, in order to fulfill his destiny. Makes since from a story perspective.



The show and the books are two separate universes, its been 5 years, people should have already gotten with the program, so to STILL see people complaining that D&D have made changes to the book is hilarious.


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Ramsay and his 20 man team decimating an army of 5000? That's the show. Littlefinger's insane decision to marry Sansa to Ramsay prior to the battle, the show. The strange set of trial circumstances, Loras is gay, all that is the show.

You might want to reread the books.

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tbh, I'm really torn between cursing D&D and sympathizing with them. Filming the last two books was always going to be impossible without rewriting them from scratch in a way that made sense for tv, yet put everyone back on track for season 6. You need very good writers for that, and this they didn't have. otoh, given good material, they do very well--see seasons 1-3. The shows fell off track when the novels did, so limiting the criticism to D&D isn't quite fair to them.

Agreed, but they've made a lot of questionable decisions when it comes to rewriting the adaptation to make it better for TV.

1) I actually prefer the idea of Sansa in WF but the execution was a bit off with regards to how Sansa is supposed to avenge her family by marrying into the Boltons. They could've at least come up with a better plan where Sansa has to endure it for a short time until Littlefinger helps her destroy them. Instead she's supposed to stop being a victim by becoming a victim...Not a fool proof plan.

2) I think Jaime and Bronn in Dorne could've possibly worked, or at least been more tolerable if they stuck true to Jaime's character progression in AFFC and his distancing from Cersei...Instead we get some comedy with he and Bronn and no growth at all...In fact possibly regression. The idea of kidnapping Myrcella was always going to be a bad plan but at least they could've made it thought provoking by applying Jaime's AFFC arc to Dorne instead of the Riverlands. I mean they almost set it up for Bronn to tell Jaime about Cersei's infidelity but ignored it.

3) Jon's arc has been well handled mostly -- We didn't need him and Bowen Marsh counting food stores all year and for that I'm grateful. But I wish they focused less on Olly and more on the longer-tenured leadership outside of Thorne. We already have Marsh and Yarwick casted at least give them some fucking lines. This is part of D&D's cliche tendencies and force feeding us plots.

4) Mereen has been an improvement mostly since I can't bear to re-read those chapters ever. The problem there was they chose to have Tyrion do really nothing while he's been there instead of trying to help her with the Harpy plot, and Hizdahr for some reason was treated like a punching bag for everyone despite him being one of the few logical characters and future King, then he gets randomly killed by SotH for some reason.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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You might want to reread the books.

I'm 10000% sure that Loras isn't arrested and jailed for being gay in the books and that his sister isn't arrested for telling a little white lie about what she knows of his sex life. Thanks.

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People forget that there's a limit to how many characters and settings you can have in the show, meaning that D+D are forced to make a lot of changes.



For example take the Sansa/Ramsay storyline. That was absolutely necessary because the alternative was having two extra characters (Harry the Heir and fArya) and one extra setting and storyline (The Vale).



A lot of people's criticisms of the show can be put down to logistics, and the sheer difficulty of adapting such an epic series of books.


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tbh, I'm really torn between cursing D&D and sympathizing with them. Filming the last two books was always going to be impossible without rewriting them from scratch in a way that made sense for tv, yet put everyone back on track for season 6. You need very good writers for that, and this they didn't have. otoh, given good material, they do very well--see seasons 1-3. The shows fell off track when the novels did, so limiting the criticism to D&D isn't quite fair to them.

Thats true, and you make a fair point, but then perhaps they should have taken that into consideration before embarking on such a project, (not being smarmy to you).

We've seen whats happened to "Carnivale," (still not over that), "Rome," and even "Deadwood," (still waiting for the movie). Not every movie venture can be the "Sorpranos." I use to think, hey, why don't they actually do a series on the Plantaganets? They would never run out of material, but now, I hope they don't as that is probably best left in the hands of Masterpiece Theater, or the History Channel as with "Vikings."

Surprisingly, AMC has proven to be adept at fantasy, (Walking Dead), as well as the contemporary, (Mad Men).

Anyway, we'll see what happens next week.

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I'm 10000% sure that Loras isn't arrested and jailed for being gay in the books and that his sister isn't arrested for telling a little white lie about what she knows of his sex life. Thanks.

But maybe D&D know the end because GRRM told them and in TWOW there is going to be a flash back about how Loras is arrested for being gay and Marg iis jailed for covering it up. The whole adultery thing will be shown to be a ruse and the genius of D&D will be vindicated once again.

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Ramsay and his 20 man team decimating an army of 5000? That's the show.

All they did was light some fires to destroy food and resources which is completely plausible. It's not like they engaged Stannis entire army and defeated them with 20 men. That's something that would happen in an episode of Vikings.

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It's so easy to criticise D&D from the safety of the internet, isn't it?



AFFC and aDwD were filler books, with no real plot advancement. The filming of the (presumably) final seasons was always going to be a challenge. I think we'd all hoped that WoW would be on the shelf by this point in the game, only leaving the final season. Clearly, this hasn't happened.



The show and the books are separate entities and -five years in - people still seem to have trouble with this concept. Not everything can be put on screen and tbh, to still see people trotting out the exact same arguments is insane. Get with the program or change the channel.


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People forget that there's a limit to how many characters and settings you can have in the show, meaning that D+D are forced to make a lot of changes.

For example take the Sansa/Ramsay storyline. That was absolutely necessary because the alternative was having two extra characters (Harry the Heir and fArya) and one extra setting and storyline (The Vale).

A lot of people's criticisms of the show can be put down to logistics, and the sheer difficulty of adapting such an epic series of books.

The only problem I have, is that each episode should be 1 hr 15 mins, and each season should be 12-15 episodes,that way they wouldnt have to cut SOOOOOOOOOOOO much out.

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All they did was light some fires to destroy food and resources which is completely plausible. It's not like they engaged Stannis entire army and defeated them with 20 men. That's something that would happen in an episode of Vikings.

You think that scene, with the fires all being lit into huge bonfires simultaneously is completely plausible?

And I'm still quite unclear on why since they specifically say their horses are mostly killed...how they are starving? It's below freezing, they have tons of horse meat. They actually have plenty of time to send Davos back for horses and supplies without burning anybody.

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The only problem I have, is that each episode should be 1 hr 15 mins, and each season should be 12-15 episodes,that way they wouldnt have to cut SOOOOOOOOOOOO much out.

It would improve the quality massively, but I guess there's a problem with budget and getting it finished in time.

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I'm 10000% sure that Loras isn't arrested and jailed for being gay in the books and that his sister isn't arrested for telling a little white lie about what she knows of his sex life. Thanks.

Im referring to the fact that you implied that the show made loras gay.

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It's so easy to criticise D&D from the safety of the internet, isn't it?

AFFC and aDwD were filler books, with no real plot advancement. The filming of the (presumably) final seasons was always going to be a challenge. I think we'd all hoped that WoW would be on the shelf by this point in the game, only leaving the final season. Clearly, this hasn't happened.

The show and the books are separate entities and -five years in - people still seem to have trouble with this concept. Not everything can be put on screen and tbh, to still see people trotting out the exact same arguments is insane. Get with the program or change the channel.

While I agree most of the rabid fan base is so dramatic and quick to jump onto any D&D hate bandwagon they can, there are clear bad decisions made by them this season that I think is fair criticism. The Dorne plot had potential but was executed poorly. Sansa in WF would've been much better had they illustrated any semblance of a plan as to how Sansa is supposed to come out on top in that situation, instead LF abandons her and she plays along. Those are the two major issues for me...The stories had potential but their lack of attention to detail and thoroughness hurts them. There are several inconsistencies and logical pitfalls that could easily be avoided. The best material this season was Hardhome which was mostly made up, not even from the books. You can tell just how much they worked on it to make it epic, but the rest of the season falls short. Perhaps they don't have enough time or resources to accomplish what they want, but ultimately that still falls on their shoulders.

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Im referring to the fact that you implied that the show made loras gay.

No I didn't imply that. I'm sorry if that was your take away. I meant that the show completely invented the plot point of Loras being gay as the reason for the arrests of the Tyrells.

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You might want to reread the books.

I think he was referring to the fact the show brought Loras's character down to the sum total of his sexuality as opposed to the books where it was only a part of who he was. One of the most beautiful lines was his reference to Renlys death. (They also did the same thing with Oberyn- a factor, not the sum total).

They turned his engagement to Sansa as a cross between "What not to Wear" and "Bridezillas."

In the books it is his older, unmarried brother Willas, heir to House Tyrell, and I actually still speculate that a union between Sansa and Willas Tyrell is not off the table.

The reason why Marg was arrested was because of her suspected, (and probably true), infidelity to Tommen, treason for a Queen and very Anne Boleyn/Catherine Howard.

Loras was a formidable fighter though he was also a schemer and a cheat, in short, another well-written, "grey" character.

Edited by Alia of the knife

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People forget that there's a limit to how many characters and settings you can have in the show, meaning that D+D are forced to make a lot of changes.

For example take the Sansa/Ramsay storyline. That was absolutely necessary because the alternative was having two extra characters (Harry the Heir and fArya) and one extra setting and storyline (The Vale).

A lot of people's criticisms of the show can be put down to logistics, and the sheer difficulty of adapting such an epic series of books.

I think we can all accept that the show has to operate under certain constraints, however that does not excuse the poor writing we've had this season. The show is not even internally consistent and that comes down to sloppiness. I didn't mind Sansa popping up at Winterfell but the execution of that plotline has been rather poor. Seems like the entire WF plotline is in service to Ramsay. Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, are any of their storylines better than their Feast and Dance storylines? Not in my opinion.

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... Dorne is 100% Dan and Dave. And it sucks completely....

To be fair, most of that Dorne storyline happened in the books, just with a few different characters. And in the books Mycella even lost an ear.

Now I agree that a lot of the execution of this story this season was weak. The fight between Jaime / Bronn and the Sand Snakes was woeful. It did not live up to its potential.

This season gave Jaime and Bronn something to do as their book material was used up. Let's face the Brotherhood Without Banners / Lady Stoneheart / Blackfish Versus Freys is end game stuff and will be best done in the last season. If Jaime goes in search of Brienne next season he is likely to run into BWB. and that is time enough for that to happen.

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