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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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Unless he's not getting stabbed, he doesn't have much time, and if he tells them all about Hardhome in ep. 10 then it makes it even more strange that they will still stab him right after he's been proven right?

This is what people mean when they criticize the show's pacing and that they fail to follow through on their own changes. If they are going to add in Hardhome, then they need to account for that knowledge and change and adapt the reasons for Jon getting stabbed.

I was wondering the same thing.

I know Ollie is upset, understandably, but once he ( and everyone) hears what happened at Hardhome surely that would temper any idea of revenge. The recounting of the attack should scare some sense into Ollie - you'd think. To kill Jon at that point would be blindingly stupid.

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It wouldn't change that much. The men of the NW would still think White Walkers on the other side of the wall are less a threat than being outnumbered by wildlings in Castle Black.


But stabbing Jon still is a stupid thing to do when the wildlings are already in Castle Black.


Edited by JSPR_G

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It wouldn't change that much. The men of the NW would still think White Walkers on the other side of the wall are less a threat than being outnumbered by wildlings in Castle Black.

But stabbing Jon still is a stupid thing to do when the wildlings are already in Castle Black.

Interesting.

So you think their reliance on the wall keeping everyone safe would abdigate their fear? I can see that. Short-sighted but fear makes people stupid. Easier to strike bargains in ones mind than face the fact.

And I guess hate can create a bad moral compromise. It's "only" the Wildings dying and who cares if they add to the WW army because the wall keeps us safe - that sort of thing.

Gonna bite them in the ass, as so often happens.

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Interesting.

So you think their reliance on the wall keeping everyone safe would abdigate their fear? I can see that. Short-sighted but fear makes people stupid. Easier to strike bargains in ones mind than face the fact.

And I guess hate can create a bad moral compromise. It's "only" the Wildings dying and who cares if they add to the WW army because the wall keeps us safe - that sort of thing.

Gonna bite them in the ass, as so often happens.

Well in their minds they're probably thinking "How can we protect the wall from White Walkers if we have to fight a war with these savages who will try to kill us in our sleep." It makes sense from their perspective, they've been sworn enemies for as long as anyone knows. Any major change within a society no matter how small will be met with mostly opposition at first. Add onto the fact that the NW food stores are now in major jeopardy with the addition of all the Wildling mouths to feed, the majority of NWmen will feel their lives and longevity threatened.

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They aren't spoiling that. It was not just very obvious to all readers but GRRM himself said it would happen. He has said that even back in 2011 after Dance: "they will meet, but not yet". He has recently confirmed they will briefly meet or cross paths. Everything in Tyrion's latest chapters indicates he's on path to meet Dany ("dragons, dragons and you're in the middle"), and he's going to make the SS to turn allegiances to her favour

He has done that in tWoW already

Martin has also said that Jon is not dead. Not like that, but indirectly. "Oh, you think he's dead, right?". Considering Jon is being set up to be a big player in the books, it's very obvious he can't kill him now.

The thing is, some storylines and developments are so naturally leaded in a way, that the line between something spoiling it or simply confirming it is too thin. This is what is happening with the show. The show is confirming theories that a big percentage of the readership already believes will happen or are just hinted in books (like VS killing Others).

The scene with Shireen is particularly tricky because Stannis is in no position to be anywhere close to Shireen at the moment in the books. In the show, Shireen is burned because they need to improve their odds before leaving to Winterfell. But in the books, Stannis has already parted and he's enduring a blizzard by saying "no more burnings, pray harder" and "if I die, put my daughter on the throne". While many believe Stannis will die while facing the Boltons, some others are sure -me, among them- that Stannis still has a role to play. He might be able to burn Shireen, but not because of the reasons of the show, as he's past beyond that scenario at the moment. For that to happen as in the show, Stannis or one of his men would have to fly back to the Wall and give the order.

Shireen will be burned. I'm sure that will happen, sadly. Yet, one thing is to die for Stannis' cause and another one, by his hand. I think the first scenario is more likely. The situation at the Wall is about to get quite desperate. Not only due to the Others being about to invade, but because Jon has just been stabbed and hell is about to break. Remember that among the people in there, Val wanted the girl dead while Melisandre would do it if she believes Stannis is dead and they need to bring back Jon, who she already is starting to believe being AA and she's there to fight him, not to win a crown. I think, rather than spoil Stannis doing it, it does confirms Mel doing the deed for the sake of Jon's.

I couldnt agree more.

This time you are saying exactly what my enlish skills dont let me.

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One thing I keep seeing speculated is that the burning of Shireen will somehow be used to "resurrect" Jon, but I don't see it.



Thoros managed to bring Beric back six times, just by saying a prayer to the Lord of light over his body. It's insinuated that Beric ended up reviving Lady Stoneheart with "The kiss of life", giving up his own life in the process, but we're not really told how that's supposed to work. (Maybe it can only be done by someone who's been resurrected themselves?)



In any event, from what we've been told so far, burning King's blood should not be necessary to bring Jon back if he dies during FTW.


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Like others, I thought that this season had some good concepts but failed to execute properly.



Sansa in Winterfell: I loved the idea of it, but they didn't give Sansa enough power. I can see why they didn't bring in the Northern Lords, because it might have actually made Sansa too powerful, but they could have given her 100 Arryn guards or something as her personal protectors. It would have provided for plausible protection for LFs investment and would have been enough people to give her the ability to do anything to avenge her family. D&D could have had the Boltons murder her guards at the wedding or something if they felt the need to make her totally powerless.



Jaime in Dorne: The Dorne storyline was like a decent episode of Xena. It could have been a lot cooler. They should have kept the Queenmaker plot, it was the best part of Dorne in the books.



The Wall: Was good



Stannis: The burning of Shireen happened a little too soon. I don't get how Stannis is supposed to be the best commander in westeros according to LF, because he's always losing



Meereen: Better than the books



Arya: Not enough time to do the arc justice.



Cersei: They nailed it with how they developed her character

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Nope but there was time to watch the sandsnakes play "slap me" and time to watch three whores paraded in front of a child molester. Wonder how many seconds of decent stuff we could have replaced with those scenes omitted?

You folk really don't deserve this show. And I don't mean that nicely.

You no idea what the point of those scenes might turn out to be. Just as the people whining about 'showing Loras is Gaaaay' in episode 1 had no idea what the point was going to be.

In each episode there are scenes that deliver an immediate payoff and there are scenes that are world building and plot developing. Dorne is a plot development thread in this season. The payoff won't come till next season.

Its because of you folk that Shireen had to burn this season. If you folk weren't so whiny when you don't get an immediate payoff, Shireen could be alive today, playing with her dolls and reading the dance of dragons. But noooo, you folk have to get to the payoff immediately, no patience.

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People are really believing that Stannis will kill Shireen on the books?

I'll seriously chop off one of my fingers if they don't make it MELISANDRE alone the burner in the books. It really has no fucking sense if it's Stannis who does it.

Unless “Ironkiller” is a pseudonym for GRR Martin, you don’t know for sure what will happen in the books. For all the doom-and-gloom folks cursing and hating over Sunday’s episode… just as you have the right to your opinion, you also have the right to turn off the TV. The sooner you give up on the show, and this forum, the better off the rest of will be.

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I think we can all accept that the show has to operate under certain constraints, however that does not excuse the poor writing we've had this season. The show is not even internally consistent and that comes down to sloppiness. I didn't mind Sansa popping up at Winterfell but the execution of that plotline has been rather poor. Seems like the entire WF plotline is in service to Ramsay. Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, are any of their storylines better than their Feast and Dance storylines? Not in my opinion.

But that's my point. They couldn't do Tyrion, Jaime or Brienne's Feast or Dance storylines because that would mean casting a load of new characters and having a load of new settings. Logistically they had to mix Brienne's storyline in with the Winterfell one and mix Jaime's in with the Dorne one.

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I think we can all accept that the show has to operate under certain constraints, however that does not excuse the poor writing we've had this season. The show is not even internally consistent and that comes down to sloppiness. I didn't mind Sansa popping up at Winterfell but the execution of that plotline has been rather poor. Seems like the entire WF plotline is in service to Ramsay. Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, are any of their storylines better than their Feast and Dance storylines? Not in my opinion.

I am sorry but this is just ridiculous.

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I am sorry but this is just ridiculous.

It seems like he has gotten more screen time than Sansa, certainly more than Theon, who has barely had any lines. And now that his badass self has destroyed Stannis army of 5000 with 20 men, he does seem like the star of the Winterfell story.

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It seems like he has gotten more screen time than Sansa, certainly more than Theon, who has barely had any lines. And now that his badass self has destroyed Stannis army of 5000 with 20 men, he does seem like the star of the Winterfell story.

Theon can barely speak so of course he hasn't had many lines.

Edited by northernmonkey

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But that's my point. They couldn't do Tyrion, Jaime or Brienne's Feast or Dance storylines because that would mean casting a load of new characters and having a load of new settings. Logistically they had to mix Brienne's storyline in with the Winterfell one and mix Jaime's in with the Dorne one.

I got your point and agree that changes have to be made but that does not excuse the sub par writing we got this season. That was my point. The Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne arcs that we got in the show were rather poor and it had nothing to do with logistics.

I am sorry but this is just ridiculous.

No, it isn't.

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One thing I keep seeing speculated is that the burning of Shireen will somehow be used to "resurrect" Jon, but I don't see it.

Thoros managed to bring Beric back six times, just by saying a prayer to the Lord of light over his body. It's insinuated that Beric ended up reviving Lady Stoneheart with "The kiss of life", giving up his own life in the process, but we're not really told how that's supposed to work. (Maybe it can only be done by someone who's been resurrected themselves?)

In any event, from what we've been told so far, burning King's blood should not be necessary to bring Jon back if he dies during FTW.

I think people expecting that were mistaking GRRM showing that resurrection was possible in his world with people showing that Mel is going to do it.

I find the argument that Jon must be Lyanna's son on the basis of his looks to be utterly unconvincing because GRRM has shown us multiple ways of changing looks. Mel does it, the Faceless Men do it, even wilding wargs do it. Face changing is a part of GRRM's world. But the fact that he has given us three examples does not mean that he is limited to those.

Mel is the personification of evil. AAR is the personification of good. So Mel cannot raise AAR, it would be stupid.

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I thought that was a good idea. But... think about it, if they could pump out 15 episodes a season they would do exactly that. It takes them a whole year to produce just the 10.

lol you are basically asking for them to double the budget of the show, or otherwise half the quality of what they currently are producing.

Well whatever! It's worth it! Hire more people, do whatcha gotta do, they owe it to the integrity of this great story to do it right!!! Look how pissed Linda is! Has everyone seen her twitter feed?

HBO has enough money to get this right!

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