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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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Not true, one man can move faster than having to move a entire army.

What's the rush? They're not starving, they have tons of fresh frozen horse meat. Why can't they at least wait for Davos and see if he comes back with any fresh horses or supplies from CB?

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I think you mean Stannis. We're rooting for the White Walkers now.

Ok, fine! But they have to be nice to Sansa and give her lemon cakes, and leave Sam alone with lots of books, and buy Ser Alliser a puppy. Deal?

...that's a fine post to make hedge knight with, if I do say so myself.

Edited by Perfidious Algernon

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Seriously, Ramsey needs to be named Supreme Commander of the army of the living. He managed, with 20 men, to burn the supplies and siege weapons of a 6000? man army without a single man getting killed or captured. That's a piece of military genius. It's also, frankly, ridiculous.



Stannis burning Shireen at this moment is so problematic.



1) Balon Greyjoy is still alive. That means that his sorceress has only a 67% rate of success. I'd like to think that most people would want a guarantee of success before BURNING THEIR CHILD ALIVE.



2) Melisandre doesn't even make it clear what burning Shireen will achieve. Victory? But how? And is this victory against the Boltons or victory against everybody? In what form? Why doesn't Stannis ask these questions?



3) Shireen is Stannis' only heir. If Stannis dies, who will his supporters rally to?



4) Who the hell would choose to support Stannis now? Who would support an already unlikeable man that just burnt alive his own daughter in the name of a foreign religion?



5) Stannis was not in a desperate enough situation to justify this act. This man spent almost a year inside Storms' End, eating rats and making soup from the glue of books. But apparently after a few days in the snow, he's prepared to burn his only, beloved daughter for some intangible victory.

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4) Who the hell would choose to support Stannis now? Who would support an already unlikeable man that just burnt alive his own daughter in the name of a foreign religion?

Wondered about this while I was watching the scene. How many times have we heard that kinslaying and violating guest right are the biggest taboos in Westeros?

3) Shireen is Stannis' only heir. If Stannis dies, who will his supporters rally to?

This one too. I could see an endgame scenario where everyone in contention for the throne is sidelined one way or another, and somebody points out that this Gendry kid is technically the last living Baratheon and he get it by default. Admittedly, a lot would have to happen between there and here.

Seriously, Ramsey needs to be named Supreme Commander of the army of the living. He managed, with 20 men, to burn the supplies and siege weapons of a 6000? man army without a single man getting killed or captured. That's a piece of military genius. It's also, frankly, ridiculous.

Totally take your point, but wouldn't it be just like Martin to make someone we despise integral to humanity's survival?

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Ok, fine! But they have to be nice to Sansa and give her lemon cakes, and leave Sam alone with lots of books, and buy Ser Alliser a puppy. Deal?

...that's a fine post to make hedge knight with, if I do say so myself.

Oh absolutely. They'll make Shireen Night Queen and she'll make sure no more little girls are hurt.

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The look that Ollie have Jon was a look of deceit. Like he knows what's about to happen to Jon, and feels ashamed of himself for not telling.

Edited by Quentyn Kartell

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Ok, fine! But they have to be nice to Sansa and give her lemon cakes, and leave Sam alone with lots of books, and buy Ser Alliser a puppy. Deal?

...that's a fine post to make hedge knight with, if I do say so myself.

Sam will be a wizard :)

Lemon cakes for everyone.

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Wondered about this while I was watching the scene. How many times have we heard that kinslaying and violating guest right are the biggest taboos in Westeros?

I actually completely forgot about the taboo of kinslaying (now I feel embarrassed). I was just thinking that he would look like a religious nutjob who will kill literally anybody in the name of victory.

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Totally take your point, but wouldn't it be just like Martin to make someone we despise integral to humanity's survival?

I think show Stannis probably fits this description for most viewers at the moment.

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The Stannatics should give it up.



Stan had to burn Shireen now because it was his only option left. There was nothing to be gained from waiting apart from losing more men to desertion and starvation.



Stann has food left for a few weeks at most. It is now or never if he is going to take Winterfell.



Davos understands the score. Without the support of the Nights Watch, the army is finished and there is no way he can expect Jon to give that support.



Stannaticism was always odious. Mel's means have always been pure evil and we have only her word that her objectives are noble.


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I actually completely forgot about the taboo of kinslaying (now I feel embarrassed). I was just thinking that he would look like a religious nutjob who will kill literally anybody in the name of victory.

Well he already murdered his brother with the shadow baby. But the murder of Shireen is unambiguous.

But isn't that the point of the conflict now? The battle for Winterfell will be fought between a kin slayer and an oath breaker who murdered the King he swore service.

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I thought it was because without better conditions they would not survive the march. Or that they couldn't march at all.

Basically, it was his life or hers.

I don't know if it was the pacing of the episode or what, but it didn't even seem like they were out there for that long. They could have waited it out some more to see if the weather would clear up. And if it didn't, try using a leech on Shireen instead of outright cooking her. Stannis is the type of guy that is stubborn and will try out every option he has before murdering his daughter, his only heir. Maybe if they showed us in detail the situation, it wouldn't be as out of character as it is. But as it is, I'm just not seeing it. It just doesn't seem dire enough for him to kill his only heir.

When she had greyscale, he was risking his life and his entire house/staff/subjects by not killing her or sending her with the stonemen. She could have started an outbreak, but he did everything to save her. He didn't do that here. It makes no sense. I still think Mel should have done it behind his back.

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5) Stannis was not in a desperate enough situation to justify this act. This man spent almost a year inside Storms' End, eating rats and making soup from the glue of books. But apparently after a few days in the snow, he's prepared to burn his only, beloved daughter for some intangible victory.

Drogon's flames churning Stan's pitiful self to a crisp is not an intangible victory. It's quite tangible actually, yer.

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5) Stannis was not in a desperate enough situation to justify this act. This man spent almost a year inside Storms' End, eating rats and making soup from the glue of books. But apparently after a few days in the snow, he's prepared to burn his only, beloved daughter for some intangible victory.

Drogon's flames churning Stan's pitiful self to a crisp is not an intangible victory. It's quite tangible actually, yer.

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Well he already murdered his brother with the shadow baby. But the murder of Shireen is unambiguous.

But isn't that the point of the conflict now? The battle for Winterfell will be fought between a kin slayer and an oath breaker who murdered the King he swore service.

But how is a battle between two sides, where we care about neither side (anymore), good writing? Or even remotely interesting? If we don't care about the characters on either side, what investment do we have in the outcome?

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Is this a crackpot idea?: Mel knew the attack by Ramsay was coming and she not only did not prevent it, but helped either by some nifty guard glamoring, or fire accelleration. That would explain why it was such a rapid and effective attack. It would suit her, as she can use the dire situation to push Stannis over the edge. She forces a sacrifice, to prove to herself as much as others that her prophecies are true. And after the sacrifice Stannis is all-in. No way back. He is now hers.

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Stannis should just give up now and save himself the pain. What can he do against a man that can burn a 6000 strong army's siege weapons, food stores and that can kill at least a hundred horses and then escape without any of his 20 men even being seen?


Edited by Et tu Olly?

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I think Stannis at Storm's End situation is definitely different than now. He was stuck back then - he really didn't have any other choice. Now he's the aggressor. He's gone too long and too far. It's pretty much now or never, with the winter and all. Plus he truly believes that he's only one who has a chance to defeat the white walkers and destined to take the throne.


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This one too. I could see an endgame scenario where everyone in contention for the throne is sidelined one way or another, and somebody points out that this Gendry kid is technically the last living Baratheon and he get it by default. Admittedly, a lot would have to happen between there and here.

Surely the original god of Tits and Wine has a few more bastards out there older than Gendry.

The Stannatics should give it up.

Stan had to burn Shireen now because it was his only option left. There was nothing to be gained from waiting apart from losing more men to desertion and starvation.

Stann has food left for a few weeks at most. It is now or never if he is going to take Winterfell.

Stannaticism was always odious. Mel's means have always been pure evil and we have only her word that her objectives are noble.

His only option left. Yet you say he has food left for a few weeks. So his other options are a) wait for a few weeks for when Davos returns b) wait for a few weeks and see if the snow lifts c) attack Winterfell now before a "few weeks". How does burning Shireen ensure his victory at Winterfell, nothing was mentioned there by Mel.

"Give it up" should be the phrase used to people defending such ill thought out storyline.

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