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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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So 10 pair of two men in ten different places, all of which are critical to the encampment and should be well guarded, have the time to douse supplies in a liquid catalyst and start a fire in sub-zero temperature with snowfall without being noticed. Do we have 10 sets of sleeping guards. Did they carry the fire with them into the camp, because they don't have lighters or matches? No one would notice ten sets of guys wandering into the camp from the outer perimeter with torches? In a camp run by supposedly one of the most experienced and disciplined commanders in Westeros?

Starting fires in cold, particularly on substances that have been seeped in snow or ice, is very hard. The physics don't support it. It is a glaring plot hole.

So, in a story with ice zombies, dragons and a woman that squirts demon shadow assasins out of her vagina you draw the line at starting a fire when it's cold? To each their own I guess.

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So, in a story with ice zombies, dragons and a woman that squirts demon shadow assasins out of her vagina you draw the line at starting a fire when it's cold? To each their own I guess.

The story has magic so nothing else has to make sense is a huge cop out.

Things are grounded in realism, 20 men utterly destroying the entire supply chain, weaponry and horses for a 6000 man army in one strike from the outside is not believable. It's called bad story telling. The show does a lot of it.

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The story has magic so nothing else has to make sense is a huge cop out.

Things are grounded in realism, 20 men utterly destroying the entire supply chain, weaponry and horses for a 6000 man army in one strike from the outside is not believable. It's called bad story telling. The show does a lot of it.

20 guys lit some tents on fire. It's not that hard to comprehend. Just say what you guys really mean: "GRRM didn't put it in the books so it's fanfic garbage."

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you need a colossal suspension of disbelief if you are to accept that 20 men destroyed the siege engines, burned all the supplies of an army of 6000 and killed at least 100 hundred horses without any of them being spotted.

Not really, not in TV world, it a scene thats been played out literally hundreds of times in one way or another. Its not even that rare in real war!

Your wording also is trying to make more of what happened than what actually did. 20 men started fires that did those things. Fires are destructive...

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The story has magic so nothing else has to make sense is a huge cop out.

Things are grounded in realism, 20 men utterly destroying the entire supply chain, weaponry and horses for a 6000 man army in one strike from the outside is not believable. It's called bad story telling. The show does a lot of it.

Sorry but no, its anti-show garbage. As I said research the Finnish v Russian wars, no less unlikely than this, and real.

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I didn't mean the plot point was minor, i meant the slight stretch needed to beleive it was minor. I feel like people need spoon feeding every single detail, which in itself might be the difference between avid book readers and TV viewers. Maybe they snuck in to a tent and killed the occupants, taking the fire they had, who knows? Its a minor point that really doesnt need a drawn out explanation to my mind.

But if you hate the show and everything it stands for every single detail not explained to said hater is fuel for the fire. Because striking a flint over an unlit torch soaked in some sort of fuel then throwing it on a tent is apparently the equivalent of parting the Red Sea.

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But if you hate the show and everything it stands for every single detail not explained to said hater is fuel for the fire. Because striking a flint over an unlit torch soaked in some sort of fuel then throwing it on a tent is apparently the equivalent of parting the Red Sea.

I completely agree, the show in isolation is completely fine just about everthing make sense even if it takes hindsight at times. Some just cannot separate the book and show, just about every complaint ive seen is valid IF the show was the book, but its not.

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The burning of the supplies I took to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Even if 5% of their supplies were destroyed, it could be enough at this point to break the morale of the Army and potentially lead to mass defections. That's one of the many reasons why it's a bad idea for armies not accustom to cold to be on the march during winter. The other being that the people defending the lands you are invading are much better equipped to harass a more vulnerable supply chain. Plenty of real life "brilliant" military commanders have made the same mistake at Stannis, so he can count himself in good company.



And by the way, why is Stannis pushing south anyhow? Why didn't he give his army to the Night's Watch to use against the coming invasion of the undead. Oh yeah, because all he cares about is taking the Iron Throne. He doesn't make personal sacrifices, he just sacrifices others for his ambition.



I bet if you gave Napoleon the option of securing victory in Russia by burning his children he would have jumped at it too.


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I completely agree, the show in isolation is completely fine just about everthing make sense even if it takes hindsight at times. Some just cannot separate the book and show, just about every complaint ive seen is valid IF the show was the book, but its not.

This isn't true, the show isn't even consistent with itself from episode to episode. It has nothing to do with the books.

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But if you hate the show and everything it stands for every single detail not explained to said hater is fuel for the fire. Because striking a flint over an unlit torch soaked in some sort of fuel then throwing it on a tent is apparently the equivalent of parting the Red Sea.

Apparently it is:

http://www.practicalsurvivor.com/basiccoldweathersurvival

Those were experienced people using modern equipment that had issues getting a fire started in cold weather.

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I dont see that and most of the examples given for this 'inconsistancy' are spurious at best.


Edited by Rovex

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Apparently it is:

http://www.practicalsurvivor.com/basiccoldweathersurvival

Those were experienced people using modern equipment that had issues getting a fire started in cold weather.

Modern equipement isnt always best and 'experienced people' are a far cry for multi-generationally expeirienced people who actually live like it. Its also besides the point since they dont say how they started the fires, this is just one posibility.

All these excuses are so weak and reek of a desperate attempt to justify hate for the TV adaptation.

Edited by Rovex

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Modern equipement isnt always best and 'experienced people' are a far cry for multigenrationally expeirnced people who actually live like it.

All these excuses are so weak and reek of a desperate attempt to justify hate for the TV adaptation.

Okay. Ya got me with that ad hominem attack. Gratz.

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20 guys lit some tents on fire. It's not that hard to comprehend. Just say what you guys really mean: "GRRM didn't put it in the books so it's fanfic garbage."

20 men were able to sneak in undetected in a camp that should have been heavily guarded as it was in enemy territory, destroyed food that was enough for 6000 men, killed hundreds of horses, and escaped without any of them getting caught? Unless Ramsay and his men are ninjas, that is absolutely crazy and makes no sense. I'm a fan of the show, the reason why I even found out about the books was because of the show. But if something doesn't make sense, it doesn't. It has nothing to do with who wrote it. If GRRM puts this exact situation in the books, (which I don't think he will, he's good at explaining things) it would still be bad writing. It really seems like D&D didn't think through setting up the catalyst for Shireen's sacrifice.

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Can we talk a little bit more about that scene where bunch of Wildlings shuffle, mutely, to the northern gates of Castle Black?


They have nothing, no food, no tents, no blankets. Did they just hop off from ships in some cauzy little harbour few dozen yards from gates? Cause if they didn’t, they should’ve burned more then a few little Shireens to make it to the Wall.


Also, my fellow Trekkies, do you remember that moment when that alien being starts to recite poetry through Mr. Spock’s mouth and Dr. McCoy is all like: ’This is not Spock!’


Well, ’This is not Jon!’ I’m well aware that lot of readers define Jon by ’Jon is emo’. And that’s it.


Did we forget that young man with cold grey eyes and unreadable face who said to Janos Slynt: ’I don’t know with what your head is stuffed, my Lord’? That young man who negotiates with our own beloved Tormund who shouts, and threatens him and throws at him emptied mead hornes? Who send Alliser Thorne to ranging? Who put Cregan Karstark in ice cells?


That’s Jon Snow. (Thank you, Dr. McCoy.)


And that Jon Snow wouldn’t be all sad and puppyfaced if Ser Alliser would dare to call him, Lord Commander of Night’s Watch, ’Jon Snow’ (with poisonous voice full of contempt). Nor he would place command in Ser Alliser’s hands, putting his life and lives of people who is responsible for, at Ser Alliser’s mercy. Because I don’t believe that Ser Alliser would have any, and I think that Jon wouldn’t believe it either.


But nowadays all are stupid in The Game of Thrones. Except of Ramsay, of course. And Tyrion, I suppose.


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Okay. Ya got me with that ad hominem attack. Gratz.

Ad hominem huh? An ad hominem attack isnt automatically an invalid one, you realise that right? Also reading this thread pretty much confirm it isnt all that 'ad hiominem' since the evidence is there for all to see.

Edited by Rovex

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All these excuses are so weak and reek of a desperate attempt to justify hate for the TV adaptation.

And it is and adaptation. The show doesn't have 10 episodes to show a gorilla campaign run by Ramsey against Stannis over several months where small forces accustomed to moving and attacking in the snow eventually leads to Stannis's decision. And they don't have the luxury of spending 5 or 6 years figuring out the absolute most perfect way of compressing that into a single episode, so they made a decision they felt would make visual sense to the audience and went with it. It makes absolute sense that Stannis would have major issues fighting northmen in their home territory and that those issues might lead him to take desperate action. For details, see the book when it comes out.

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A couple of points:



I see a lot of people saying that the show didn't do enough to convince us all of how desperate Satnnis' situation was and to an extent, I agree. However, when you only have 10 episodes for an entire season, how much time can you realistically spend trying to convey it? This was why we saw two scenes where Davos urged Stannis to return to Castle Black. It was either that or freeze/starve.



Now they have plenty of horsemeat to eat, but it doesn't solve the problem of the cold and it doesn't replace the ordnance that was destroyed by Ramsay.



Concerning Ramsay, I'm with the camp who believe that Red Mel knew what was coming and either let it happened, or even helped the situation along. Her intent all along was to barbecue Shireen and the Bolton mission played right into her hands.



Back to Stannis' situation. We don't know exactly how the timelines between the different story arcs are supposed to go, but if we assume they run concurrently, (or something close to it) then the army was snowbound for about as long as it took Jon and Tormund to ride to Eastwatch, sail to Hardhome, get their asses kicked by the WW and sail/walk back to CB.



Not something you'd expect to do on a long weekend...


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20 men were able to sneak in undetected in a camp that should have been heavily guarded as it was in enemy territory, destroyed food that was enough for 6000 men, killed hundreds of horses, and escaped without any of them getting caught? Unless Ramsay and his men are ninjas, that is absolutely crazy and makes no sense. I'm a fan of the show, the reason why I even found out about the books was because of the show. But if something doesn't make sense, it doesn't. It has nothing to do with who wrote it. If GRRM puts this exact situation in the books, (which I don't think he will, he's good at explaining things) it would still be bad writing. It really seems like D&D didn't think through setting up the catalyst for Shireen's sacrifice.

The fact that they were freezing, tired and half starving plays no part I supposed.

Look, i get it, the show is often rushed and doesnt always explain intermediate events that well, but given the amount of ground it has to cover in just 10 hours per season it does fine.

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Ad hominem huh? An ad hominem attack isnt automatically an invalid one, you realise that right? Also reading this thread pretty much confirm it isnt all that 'ad hiominem'..

You're a complete idiot.

Chalk that up to valid ad hominem attacks.

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