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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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You're a complete idiot.

Chalk that up to valid ad hominem attacks.

How so.. Because i can see detail and sublety to the show that others fail to see? Seem to me like you have it backwards..

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The fact that they were freezing, tired and half starving plays no part I supposed.

Look, i get it, the show is often rushed and doesnt always explain intermediate events that well, but given the amount of ground it has to cover in just 10 hours per season it does fine.

Them being freezing, tired and half starving played no part in what? Not noticing the enemy sabotaging their camp?

Being tired is part of the job, they're in a war. As for the hunger and freezing, Stan ordered the killed horses to be butchered for food. Maybe they could have used horse hide for warmth?

The Ramsey problem isn't that it's rushed. It's that they made Ramsey and his lot way too competent. If they ambushed them with more men then managed to destroy a bit of supplies, fine. But as it is Ramsey should be made the War Commander of Planetos if he could do all of that with just 20 men without any of them getting caught.

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I can't even. How are the men half starving when IN THE SHOW they say that hundreds of horses were killed and will be butchered. Was some huge amount of time supposed to have passed between when Davos and Stannis discuss this and they burn Shireen? If so, I missed the cue.



People simply make stuff up to justify these gaping inconsistencies in the same segment. This isn't the books. This is the show not even being able to put together a single segment without contradicting their own storyline.


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Them being freezing, tired and half starving played no part in what? Not noticing the enemy sabotaging their camp?

Being tired is part of the job, they're in a war. As for the hunger and freezing, Stan ordered the killed horses to be butchered for food. Maybe they could have used horse hide for warmth?

The Ramsey problem isn't that it's rushed. It's that they made Ramsey and his lot way too competent. If they ambushed them with more men then managed to destroy a bit of supplies, fine. But as it is Ramsey should be made the War Commander of Planetos if he could do all of that with just 20 men without any of them getting caught.

Exactly. It was the stupid staging of all the fires blazing up simultaneously and then these quite small fires supposedly destroying ALL siege weapons ALL supplies and killing hundreds of horses. Stupid. Looks totally Hollywood.

Why not something more logical. How about they let the horses go? And destroy most of the food. Then you are stuck and will starve.

Or, show a close up of one blazing out of control fire and then tell us what was destroyed.

Surely something better could have been developed.

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I can't even. How are the men half starving when IN THE SHOW they say that hundreds of horses were killed and will be butchered. Was some huge amount of time supposed to have passed between when Davos and Stannis discuss this and they burn Shireen? If so, I missed the cue.

People simply make stuff up to justify these gaping inconsistencies in the same segment. This isn't the books. This is the show not even being able to put together a single segment without contradicting their own storyline.

How am i the only one noticing that the horses were to be use for food because ramsey killed them, so, you know, were to be food AFTER the attack?? It was made quite clear they were already low on resources, so likely heavily rationing.

As i already pointed out, once the hourses were gone what then? cleary they werent at the point where they wanted to kill the horses yet themselves, they butchered them because they were already dead. Killing them would compromise their military capability.

Edited by Rovex

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I can't even. How are the men half starving when IN THE SHOW they say that hundreds of horses were killed and will be butchered. Was some huge amount of time supposed to have passed between when Davos and Stannis discuss this and they burn Shireen? If so, I missed the cue.

People simply make stuff up to justify these gaping inconsistencies in the same segment. This isn't the books. This is the show not even being able to put together a single segment without contradicting their own storyline.

This.

Tbh this entire season has been pretty lackluster in terms of writing, but this just takes the cake. The catalyst for Stannis sacrificing his own daughter isn't well written or logical at all. And the pacing is jarring. Stan went from being angry with Mel for suggesting the sacrifice in the last episode to agreeing to it in this one?

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How am i the only one noticing that the horses were to be use for food because ramsey killed them, so, you know, were to be food AFTER the attack?? It was made quite clear they were already low on resources, so likely heavily rationing.

You're not. The people who are complaining about the scene are somewhat correct when they say that Ramsay (inadvertently) helped them with their food problem, but it doesn't solve the problem of the cold and it seemed quite clear to me that the army couldn't stay where they were.

They were going to have to march through the snow, either forward or back and most if not all would have been likely to freeze in the attempt.

The show didn't do a great job of outlining how desperate the situation was, but that's the way it goes when you have less than 10 hrs for an entire season.

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How am i the only one noticing that the horses were to be use for food because ramsey killed them, so, you know, were to be food AFTER the attack?? It was made quite clear they were already low on resources, so likely heavily rationing.

As i alrteady pointed out, once the hourses were gone what then? clealry they werent at the point where they wanted to kill the horses yet, they did so because they were already dead. Killing them would compromise their military capability.

And? They have tons of horse meat after the attack so the idea that they are starving or half starving is nonsense in the short term. They have more food after the attack than they did before. Yes, they are stuck, but stuck isn't starving. And they're close to CB so could go back, or wait for Davos to return...there is no rush because they've got those tons of horse meat courtesy of Ramsay Rambo Bolton. Which I know because the show specifically told me all of this.

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A guess we will not agree about this. To me their situation and desperation was made quite clear in the show. Yes it was somewhat rushed through, but screen time is limited. No logic issues whatsoever, just pacing issues.


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This.

Tbh this entire season has been pretty lackluster in terms of writing, but this just takes the cake. The catalyst for Stannis sacrificing his own daughter isn't well written or logical at all. And the pacing is jarring. Stan went from being angry with Mel for suggesting the sacrifice in the last episode to agreeing to it in this one?

As I said earlier, the mistake you're making is thinking of the timeline in terms of "one episode to the next".

If the story arcs run roughly the same length of time, it took weeks of cold and hunger for Stannis to change his mind and even then, it was Ramsay's sabotage that clinched it.

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And? They have tons of horse meat after the attack so the idea that they are starving or half starving is nonsense in the short term. They have more food after the attack than they did before. Yes, they are stuck, but stuck isn't starving. And they're close to CB so could go back, or wait for Davos to return...there is no rush because they've got those tons of horse meat courtesy of Ramsay Rambo Bolton. Which I know because the show specifically told me all of this.

So they won't starve....

...how do they keep from freezing?

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And? They have tons of horse meat after the attack so the idea that they are starving or half starving is nonsense in the short term. They have more food after the attack than they did before. Yes, they are stuck, but stuck isn't starving. And they're close to CB so could go back, or wait for Davos to return...there is no rush because they've got those tons of horse meat courtesy of Ramsay Rambo Bolton. Which I know because the show specifically told me all of this.

Your still missing it. We are talking about Ramseys attack, sure they may not have ben half starving after, but the attack was possible because they were half starving when it happened!!

By the way i just rewatched the scene, hundreds of horse were not killed, it was dozens. Apart from anything else horses are a millitary asset, you dont kill a millitary asset in a war unless you absolutely have to.

Edited by Rovex

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So they won't starve....

...how do they keep from freezing?

They're South of the wall, so um, burn wood from the giant forests that are all around? They are stuck, this is a problem. They now don't have enough horses to go forward, well, that isn't the case either since Stannis shows up at Winterfell in ep. 10, so apparently he had enough horses left alive to transport his army. Therefore, he burnt his daughter alive to stop the snowstorm because he didnt' want to wait it out. Seems weak to me.

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They're South of the wall, so um, burn wood from the giant forests that are all around? They are stuck, this is a problem. They now don't have enough horses to go forward, well, that isn't the case either since Stannis shows up at Winterfell in ep. 10, so apparently he had enough horses left alive to transport his army. Therefore, he burnt his daughter alive to stop the snowstorm because he didnt' want to wait it out. Seems weak to me.

South of the wall or not I guess you missed the sub zero temperatures and foot of snow.

Wait what out? The ever increasing snow in a likely many year long winter that is only going to get worse? Im fairly sure the worsening winter is a slightly important plot point of the show and book..

Edited by Rovex

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Your still missing it. We are talking about Ramseys attack, sure they may not have ben half starving after, but the attack was possible because they were half starving when it happened!!

Forgive me, but I honestly don't understand how being hungry can make Stan's scouts / guards miss seeing Ramsey and his ninjas infiltrate the camp. Does hunger make you blind?

If Ramsey was detected, they could have stopped them before so much damage was done.

Edited by SeventhReign

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Your still missing it. We are talking about Ramseys attack, sure they may not have ben half starving after, but the attack was possible because they were half starving when it happened!!

By the way i just rewatched the scene, hundreds of horse were not killed, it was dozens. Apart from anything else horses are a millitary asset, you dont kill a millitary asset in a war unless you absolutely have to.

So, he's not even stuck then? If only dozens of horses were killed, what is the problem? He can't wait out the storm? And if he has no siege engines, what is he going to siege Winterfell with? Or he simply assumes Rhllor will provide? The entire set up for this was totally haphazard and rushed to shit.

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Forgive me, but I honestly don't understand how being hungry can make Stan's scouts / guards miss seeing Ramsey and his ninjas infiltrate the camp. Does hunger make you blind?

If Ramsey was detected, they could have stopped them before so much damage was done.

Hungry, cold, the snow storm, kind of quite a disadvantage yeah.

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So, he's not even stuck then? If only dozens of horses were killed, what is the problem? He can't wait out the storm? And if he has no siege engines, what is he going to siege Winterfell with? Or he simply assumes Rhllor will provide? The entire set up for this was totally haphazard and rushed to shit.

Not in ep 10 because the weather has cleared, seemingly due to the sacrifice. Seems to me that Ramsey dug his own grave by attacking Stannis, he set in motion events that saved the army. There was no reason to suggest the weather would improve, a fairly critical plot point of the whole series.

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