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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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If Ramsey can build huge pyres of flame, why can't they?

Ramsay burned siege engines and supplies. Stannis' men probably don't want to go that route.

They're South of the wall, so um, burn wood from the giant forests that are all around? They are stuck, this is a problem. They now don't have enough horses to go forward, well, that isn't the case either since Stannis shows up at Winterfell in ep. 10, so apparently he had enough horses left alive to transport his army. Therefore, he burnt his daughter alive to stop the snowstorm because he didnt' want to wait it out. Seems weak to me.

He shows up at WF because Mel's magic worked. We've all seen the icicles melting in the preview.

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Not in ep 10 because the weather has cleared, seemingly due to the sacrifice. Seems to me that Ramsey dug his own grave by attacking Stannis, he set in motion events that saved the army. There was no reason to suggest the weather would improve, a fairly critical plot point of the whole series.

How did Ramsay dig his own grave? LF already said that Stannis should win the battle. So, with only some dozens of horses killed, then he literally burned his daughter to lift the storm. LMAO. So, did the weather heat up and melt the foot of snow, too, that snow that they couldn't get through in ep. 9? but are going to be able to get through in ep. 10? How is he going to siege the castle? Rhllor will provide?

It's even more plot holes than I thought.

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Judging from the preview, it does seem like the sacrifice worked. Whatever. I will never be okay with poor Shireen being burned alive by her own father. I do see that this opens up the way to the IT again.



But the question I have now is, what is Stannis going to do if he wins the Iron Throne? I seem to recall Mel telling him he wouldn't be able to have anymore kids. What is a king without an heir?


Edited by SeventhReign

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How did Ramsay dig his own grave? LF already said that Stannis should win the battle. So, with only some dozens of horses killed, then he literally burned his daughter to lift the storm. LMAO. So, did the weather heat up and melt the foot of snow, too, that snow that they couldn't get through in ep. 9? but are going to be able to get through in ep. 10? How is he going to siege the castle? Rhllor will provide?

It's even more plot holes than I thought.

From the hint we get in the episode 10 preview, the answer to both of those questions is yes.

As far as the siege question goes, I'd wait and see.

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How did Ramsay dig his own grave? LF already said that Stannis should win the battle. So, with only some dozens of horses killed, then he literally burned his daughter to lift the storm. LMAO. So, did the weather heat up and melt the foot of snow, too, that snow that they couldn't get through in ep. 9? but are going to be able to get through in ep. 10? How is he going to siege the castle? Rhllor will provide?

It's even more plot holes than I thought.

Have you even watched the show?

I didnt realise LF was a military genius. Sure he has his spies, but he couldnt know Stannis's armies current situation.

The army was stuck, horses or not, they were doomed, end of story. I'll say it again, there was no reason to suggest the weather would improve in a rapidly worsening and advancing winter.

The snow melted because of the magic. Not sure why this is a revelation to you given the killer shadow babies and resurrections.. So yeah, the Lord of the Light provides.

Edited by Rovex

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Judging from the preview, it does seem like the sacrifice worked. Whatever. I will forever be salty about poor Shireen being burned alive by her own father. But the question I have now is, what is Stannis going to do if he wins the Iron Throne? I seem to recall Mel telling him he wouldn't be able to have anymore kids. What is a king without an heir?

Edric?

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From the hint we get in the episode 10 preview, the answer to both of those questions is yes.

As far as the siege question goes, I'd wait and see.

I doubt the show addresses any of this. They will simply show up at Winterfell, which will still be covered in snow, no explaination... and go from there. He wins or dies, nobody cares now anyway.

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Have you even watched the show?

I didnt realise LF was a military genius. Sure he has his spies, but he couldnt know Stannis's armies current situation.

The army was stuck, horses or not, they were doomed, end of story. I'll say it again, there was no reason to suggest the weather would improve in a rapidly worsening and advancing winter.

The snow melted because of the magic. Not sure why this is a revelation to you given the killer shadow babies and resurrections.. So yeah, the Lord of the Light provides.

At some point you just have to walk away. It seems this shows very existence ruins some of these people's lives the way minute details set them off.

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I bet the people who keep saying they have less than ten hours for the whole season are the same who were hurling insults a few episodes back because how could we possibly know the whole MissWorm thing wasn't leading anywhere. Guess what, it wasn't. Nice management of the time THEY decided to bind themselves to when the network was ready to shower them with money for at least 10 seasons huh?

The pile of garbage is towering miles high at this point but the gapers keep dismissing every separate speck as a meaningless point of detail. Because hey, we get to cry at the reunion of a wooden mannequin and a videogame lizard so it was all worth it.

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Thing is, Stannis proved himself a kinslayer in front of his entire army and now has no heir. Noone would join this madman. He's not charismatic, or well-liked and he just proved himself to be an insane follower of a foreign religion. What Lord in Westeros would ever back this guy? Unless R'hllor himself pops down and crushes everyone inbetween Stannis and the IT, there is no way in hell Stannis will ever sit on it.



And that's the most frustrating part; Stannis never f***ing asks what the hell burning Shireen will do! Achieve victory? What does that mean? Will it lift the snow, kill all the Boltons, kill everyone in Stannis' path, give him a feckin' dragon? We don't know, because it apparently never occurs to anyone to ask. And Melisandre has, at best, a 67% success rate! That's BS.


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My main problem with show!Stannis sacrificing Shireen is that the writers spent so much time telling us how he's done everything within his power to save her in past. He risked the lives of pretty much everyone in Storm's End by not killing Shireen or sending her with the stonemen when she got greyscale. Shireen could have started a greyscale outbreak, but Stan's love and determination pushed him to look for a cure. He went through every option. Here, it just didn't seem like he did. I understand they took away the food and threw a snowstorm his way, but Stannis is stubborn enough to let that stop him. I don't consider myself to be a fangirl of his (although I do enjoy calling him 'The Mannis') but I can acknowledge and respect his resolve. That man does not bend easily. It just didn't feel like he tried every option before burning his own daughter alive.


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Is he in the show? I'm a little fuzzy on that as I read it long ago, but didn't Stan want to burn him or something?

We don't know how the entire story will play out. Maybe Stannis lives, maybe he dies.

There is plenty of time to introduce the character of Edric Storm if at some point in the story we find Stannis in need of an heir.

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I doubt the show addresses any of this. They will simply show up at Winterfell, which will still be covered in snow, no explaination... and go from there. He wins or dies, nobody cares now anyway.

We don't know any of this.

It seems to me that at this point you're bound and determined to complain about the show and if specific complaints are shown to be less egregious than you'd originally thought, general complaints will have to suffice.

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We don't know any of this.

It seems to me that at this point you're bound and determined to complain about the show and if specific complaints are shown to be less egregious than you'd originally thought, general complaints will have to suffice.

They're not less egregious. The set up for Stannis killing his daughter was terrible. And it's worse than I thought, since ALL they needed was the storm to lift, they're only down a few horses. No reason in the world not to wait for Davos to return at the least.

I would put it at about 95% certainly that the show is not going to mention whether the snow melted down to a few inches so they could move easily to Winterfell. Only that 'the lord of light provides' and we see them get to WF.

And yeah, I know absolutely that no audience is going to care or be vested in Stannis any longer now that he killed his daughter, so I hope and expect the show to kill him ASAP, because nobody will be interested in rooting for him and he's not colorful enough to be a fun villain like Ramsay.

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And yeah, I know absolutely that no audience is going to care or be vested in Stannis any longer now that he killed his daughter, so I hope and expect the show to kill him ASAP, because nobody will be interested in rooting for him and he's not colorful enough to be a fun villain like Ramsay.

That's the other thing; with this decision, Stannis is no longer a morally complex guy you can maybe root for, he's now a straight-up villain. And straight-up villains can be great, but Stannis isn't interesting or charismatic or clever enough to be a great, or even mediocre, villain.

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Thing is, Stannis proved himself a kinslayer in front of his entire army and now has no heir. Noone would join this madman. He's not charismatic, or well-liked and he just proved himself to be an insane follower of a foreign religion. What Lord in Westeros would ever back this guy?

He won't need nobles to choose to back him. Once he sees the snow melt and he is victorious at Winterfell, he will become even more convinced that this way is the right way. Nobels will join him or be burned and further fuel his Red Blood Magic DemonWitch's power. He will achieve victory over the WW and win the Iron Throne but will rule over a terrorized country where thousands will burn each week under his just rule.

Or everything will go horribly wrong and he will realize that he sacrificed his only daughter for nothing.

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And that's the most frustrating part; Stannis never f***ing asks what the hell burning Shireen will do! Achieve victory? What does that mean? Will it lift the snow, kill all the Boltons, kill everyone in Stannis' path, give him a feckin' dragon? We don't know, because it apparently never occurs to anyone to ask. And Melisandre has, at best, a 67% success rate! That's BS.

I was pretty disappointed it didn't have immediate, dramatic results. I could allllmost have forgiven the show (not show-Stannis, he's dead to me either way) if, say, a second after Shireen dies there's some big magic event. Like the pyre shoots 1000 ft up in the air, or consumes Stannis's army, or rebirths Shireen as some avenging fire demon, or knocks the friggin Wall down. That would have at least made it feel like we were getting something significant out of this instead of just a break in the weather.

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That's the other thing; with this decision, Stannis is no longer a morally complex guy you can maybe root for, he's now a straight-up villain. And straight-up villains can be great, but Stannis isn't interesting or charismatic or clever enough to be a great, or even mediocre, villain.

While I've never rooted for Stannis, I think a just man who has been corrupted by the Devil and doesn't even realize it makes for a great villain. Especially if he ends up "winning".

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