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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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My main problem with show!Stannis sacrificing Shireen is that the writers spent so much time telling us how he's done everything within his power to save her in past. He risked the lives of pretty much everyone in Storm's End by not killing Shireen or sending her with the stonemen when she got greyscale. Shireen could have started a greyscale outbreak, but Stan's love and determination pushed him to look for a cure. He went through every option. Here, it just didn't seem like he did. I understand they took away the food and threw a snowstorm his way, but Stannis is stubborn enough to let that stop him. I don't consider myself to be a fangirl of his (although I do enjoy calling him 'The Mannis') but I can acknowledge and respect his resolve. That man does not bend easily. It just didn't feel like he tried every option before burning his own daughter alive.

I kinda agree with you but the thing is that the show DID try to lead Stannis into do this. The problem was the set up for it was TERRIBLE.

Like, I think that putting the contrast between making him a loving dad and then make him choose between victory or sacrificing his child do work. For example, making him this caring father who see no other choice but to burn his own daughter that he tried to save for so long is something that can work when developing Stannis.

But the thing is that the situation wasn't worthy. They also have established that Stannis chose starve for a whole year instead of surrender. He was dragged out of Blackwater because he wanted to keep fighting despite they lost. So, in order to sacrifice his child, he would have to face pretty much an impending apocalypse. We could have understood that. I could have.

But no. It was Ramsay and his 20 men.

Somehow, NO ONE bought that. There are limits for the suspense of disbelief. People is like "what? He did it because 20 men trolled his camp?". Like, he has enough men to send 10 for each of Ramsay's men and kill them all.

I personally have no problem with a situation in which Stannis sees himself in the need to sacrifice his daughter. But give him a situation that INDEED looks desperate. They tried to sell this as such and it was so disappointing that he ended up like some kind of villain. Also, made the choice look hard for him to make. It looked like he barely felt bad about it.

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I kinda agree with you but the thing is that the show DID try to lead Stannis into do this. The problem was the set up for it was TERRIBLE.

Like, I think that putting the contrast between making him a loving dad and then make him choose between victory or sacrificing his child do work. For example, making him this caring father who see no other choice but to burn his own daughter that he tried to save for so long is something that can work when developing Stannis.

But the thing is that the situation wasn't worthy. They also have established that Stannis chose starve for a whole year instead of surrender. He was dragged out of Blackwater because he wanted to keep fighting despite they lost. So, in order to sacrifice his child, he would have to face pretty much an impending apocalypse. We could have understood that. I could have.

But no. It was Ramsay and his 20 men.

Somehow, NO ONE bought that. There are limits for the suspense of disbelief. People is like "what? He did it because 20 men trolled his camp?". Like, he has enough men to send 10 for each of Ramsay's men and kill them all.

I personally have no problem with a situation in which Stannis sees himself in the need to sacrifice his daughter. But give him a situation that INDEED looks desperate. They tried to sell this as such and it was so disappointing that he ended up like some kind of villain. Also, made the choice look hard for him to make. It looked like he barely felt bad about it.

We're in complete agreement on the setup. I talked about it in the previous pages of this thread. Not only is it insane to think that Ramsey and 20 men can pull that off (unless they're ninjas or Super Saiyans or something), but it's completely unbelievable that Stannis would let that be the final nail in the coffin. I also think that the pacing was bad. We don't know if they've been in this situation for weeks or just a few days. The amount of time they've been hungry should play a factor of his decision as well.

With that being said, I never thought of it as Stannis having to sacrifice the daughter he's tried so hard to save. That could have been interesting and powerful, if it was done correctly. It should have been made clear to us that Stan had tried every other option and there was literally no hope besides burning her. I think it should have been more at stake than just starving and being cold. Maybe some sort of illness could have spread throughout the camp. Then you would have had cold, hunger, and a disease that's killing all of your men. I would have accepted that.

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We're in complete agreement on the setup. I talked about it in the previous pages of this thread. Not only is it insane to think that Ramsey and 20 men can pull that off (unless they're ninjas or Super Saiyans or something), but it's completely unbelievable that Stannis would let that be the final nail in the coffin. I also think that the pacing was bad. We don't know if they've been in this situation for weeks or just a few days. The amount of time they've been hungry should play a factor of his decision as well.

Well, in the show itself, they resisted a whole year. And his wife was also there. So, it's not like he wouldn't make others suffer the same he is suffering. (in the books, I suppose Renly was there too). So, the argument of "he did it for his men" does not even work here.

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So, just extrapilating this out here, let's say Stannis gets the throne. Does he solve every issue with a sacrafice to the Lord of Light? Crops didn't come in - Burn a couple kids from the farmers family? It wouldn't stop.

It's frustrating the change in his character but I think the message here is the evils of blind faith. Sometimes our favorite characters are sacrificed to make a broader point. in the end he can't succeed because he commited the highest of evil acts for his ambition. This may not be how it ends in the books but I feel it works on the show. Of course I could have done without watching Shireen burn. I turned the sound off and closed my eyes.

Just a note: Too bad Walder Frey isn't ambitious because he has enough offspring to keep that bastard Flame God fed.

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Well, in the show itself, they resisted a whole year. And his wife was also there. So, it's not like he wouldn't make others suffer the same he is suffering. (in the books, I suppose Renly was there too). So, the argument of "he did it for his men" does not even work here.

He lasted a year because he was in a massive castle. Outdoors, in the North, in a blizzard, after winter has come, with a battle to fight is a much more immediate problem.

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It's frustrating the change in his character but I think the message here is the evils of blind faith. Sometimes our favorite characters are sacrificed to make a broader point. in the end he can't succeed because he commited the highest of evil acts for his ambition. This may not be how it ends in the books but I feel it works on the show. Of course I could have done without watching Shireen burn. I turned the sound off and closed my eyes.

Being catholic myself I agree that blind faith sometimes can lead to evil acts (or at least, acts that end up hurting others) but in GoT's case, I think D&D plainly dislike religions and the message is "religions are bad". They have done that with the Sparrows. They're doing the same with Satannis and Mel.

Funny thing, Stannis (book Stannis, I mean), is practically an atheist. Or at least, very agnostic.

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How do you guys feel about Dorne? I think it's just awful. It's no more than filler, and they turned the Sand Snakes into jokes.

It does make their decision to cut Arianne in favour of keeping the SS and Trystane look rather odd. Seeing as Trys gets some of the SS' plot and some of Arianne's, it's not like Arianne couldn't have filled that role. Unless of course Professor X is planning to marry Trys to Dany.

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So, just extrapilating this out here, let's say Stannis gets the throne. Does he solve every issue with a sacrafice to the Lord of Light? Crops didn't come in - Burn a couple kids from the farmers family? It wouldn't stop.

I never thought about that. Honestly I can't see him getting to the IT because of his devotion to the LoL. The Westerosi won't stand for it, and he needs support of other houses to take the IT and keep it.

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He lasted a year because he was in a massive castle. Outdoors, in the North, in a blizzard, after winter has come, with a battle to fight is a much more immediate problem.

He could have send for help from the Watch.

There was a lot of solutions he could have found. The show just presented a lame excuse.

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Funny thing, Stannis (book Stannis, I mean), is practically an atheist. Or at least, very agnostic.

It certainly was an interesting thing for me in the books: an atheist being partnered with someone who does show supernatural powers.

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It does make their decision to cut Arianne in favour of keeping the SS and Trystane look rather odd. Seeing as Trys gets some of the SS' plot and some of Arianne's, it's not like Arianne couldn't have filled that role. Unless of course Professor X is planning to marry Trys to Dany.

I could have done without the SS they've given us. They are laughing stocks who are too busy playing hot hands with each other and giving antidote to someone who tried to kill them (I love Bron, but come on).

Some of Arianne's traits (fighting with Doran) have been given to Ellaria, which makes no sense. I'm annoyed that they cut out Arianne, but making Trys an only child wasn't smart. It makes Doran look like an idiot for sending his only heir to KL, where his enemies are. At least if Quentyn was still there he wouldn't look so stupid for risking his entire line by sending Trystane into enemy territory.

And it looks like the Great Dornish Conspiracy has been cut too. Sigh.

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He could have send for help from the Watch.

There was a lot of solutions he could have found. The show just presented a lame excuse.

What help? There's only 50 of them and Jon and Mance had already turned him down.

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I can't imagine how Stannis is giong to get the IT, assuming he even lives through episode 10.

The Faith has been rearmed. He just burned his only child alive, so he's a kinslayer x 10. Why is anyone going to make an alliance w/him, and he's got no heirs anywhere for marriage alliances? How could he ever take King's Landing?

I suspect he's long dead before Dany ever sets foot in Westeros.

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Being catholic myself I agree that blind faith sometimes can lead to evil acts (or at least, acts that end up hurting others) but in GoT's case, I think D&D plainly dislike religions and the message is "religions are bad". They have done that with the Sparrows. They're doing the same with Satannis and Mel.

Funny thing, Stannis (book Stannis, I mean), is practically an atheist. Or at least, very agnostic.

Yes. In both examples the faith is rigid without room for empathy or gray areas of human nature. This never works. Both are doomed.

That is interesting about Stannis in the book. To me that proves his unyeilding ambition. He doesn't truly believe but he is willing to use the faith to his own advantage? Egads. But it may not go that direction in the book.

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It certainly was an interesting thing for me in the books: an atheist being partnered with someone who does show supernatural powers.

I think Stannis became an atheist after his parents died, or at least, he turned rebellious against religions in general, which is a very normal and understandable reaction after what happened to him. That doesn't mean he completely stopped believing.

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I can't imagine how Stannis is giong to get the IT, assuming he even lives through episode 10.

The Faith has been rearmed. He just burned his only child alive, so he's a kinslayer x 10. Why is anyone going to make an alliance w/him, and he's got no heirs anywhere for marriage alliances? How could he ever take King's Landing?

I suspect he's long dead before Dany ever sets foot in Westeros.

The only future I see for Stannis is a BBQ named irony hosted by Dany and her dragons.

If he makes it that far.

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How do you guys feel about Dorne? I think it's just awful. It's no more than filler, and they turned the Sand Snakes into jokes.

If Tommen dies.... It is certainly not filler. It is the next in line...

And Tommen has to be dying soon.

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Concerning wine.... "I don't partake".



Both Roose and Tycho have uttered these exact words when talking about drinking wine.



A connection? Both Faceless Men?


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