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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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Right..... Explain to me again why Jon and the wildlings got off of the ships at Eastwatch on the North side of the Wall and walked without supplies to Castle Black? What detail do I need spelling out to me?

No need to explain it. It's a minute detail that normal people don't give a shit about. The trek from Eastwatch to Castle Black wasn't important to the plot, so it was skipped. That's what TV does.

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No need to explain it. It's a minute detail that normal people don't give a shit about. The trek from Eastwatch to Castle Black wasn't important to the plot, so it was skipped. That's what TV does.

The show should care. They've created, or should I say, they're using all of the detail of Westeros that GRRM created, there are detailed maps on HBOs site, are there not? Detailed backgrounders?

So, why does the show not bother to be consistent with it's own stuff that exists on it's own web site and in the show itself, all apart from the books? This what professionals do, they care about the little things that the casual viewer misses, this is what differentiates good from great and good from mediocre.

Like Mad Men being so careful about everything being correct for the timeframe. But, GOT can't be bothered to keep track of babies, necklaces or North and South.

Edited by Cas Stark

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What I find frustrating about the wrong side of the wall is that it just so blatantly disregards internal consistency and logic. If they couldn't reach Eastwatch due to storms and it being unsafe to sail, which would make sense, they should have just showed that (or at the very least insert some dialogue mentioning that). If they reached Eastwatch and Jon decided he couldn't just let loose the wildling bunch south of the wall yet and keep them under control that's a big decision I would have liked to have seen the discussion. But to assume as the show implied that they landed in Eastwatch and then decided to make their way back to the north side for some unknown reason with a massive undead army not all that terribly far away and they decided to not put the wall between them...just doesn't make sense and makes Jon look like an idiot.


Edited by Wsc44

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The show should care. They've created, or should I say, they're using all of the detail of Westeros that GRRM created, there are detailed maps on HBOs site, are there not? Detailed backgrounders?

So, why does the show not bother to be consistent with it's own stuff that exists on it's own web site and in the show itself, all apart from the books? This what professionals do, they care about the little things that the casual viewer misses, this is what differentiates good from great and good from mediocre.

Like Mad Men being so careful about everything being correct for the timeframe. But, GOT can't be bothered to keep track of babies, necklaces or North and South.

You are right they (D&D) should, but they don’t. Viewers also should care about consistency, but they don’t…

They were all meant for each other…

P.S: First post! Greetings from Bolivia

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Being on the other side of the other side of the wall was meant to be similar to the book (just in that detail), but after the battle of Hardhome it’s a long way to walk and not be attacked again by whites



And apparently nobody cares about the boats, where they are, how they are, etc…


Edited by GunFdx

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Lately I've been curious about something that has nothing to do with either the burning of Shireen or being on the wrong side of the wall and I'd be interested in your thoughts:



Does anyone find it strange that Cersei hasn't sent a letter to Jaime yet? For me, receiving and burning that letter was the crescendo in his arc and kind of the final nail in the coffin for Cersei's downfall. I find it weird that they omitted the "lancel, kettleblack and moon boy for all i know" speech last season and haven't even bothered to work in the fact that Jaime should be very angry with Cersei by now. Maybe Jaime is getting the Trystane treatment and is going to take the place of another character entirely?


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You are right they (D&D) should, but they don’t. Viewers also should care about consistency, but they don’t…

They were all meant for each other…

P.S: First post! Greetings from Bolivia

Welcome. Some viewers care, even some show only viewers noticed they were on the wrong side of the wall.

But, it's more to me how sloppy the show is and they assume that viewers both won't care and won't notice, even when these things could be taken care of w/1 line of dialogue or couple tweaks here and there. They never bother, it's like they have no pride in their own craft, which for the most expensive show in TV history, seems really odd and sad.

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Welcome. Some viewers care, even some show only viewers noticed they were on the wrong side of the wall.

But, it's more to me how sloppy the show is and they assume that viewers both won't care and won't notice, even when these things could be taken care of w/1 line of dialogue or couple tweaks here and there. They never bother, it's like they have no pride in their own craft, which for the most expensive show in TV history, seems really odd and sad.

#600Handcraftedmasks

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Welcome. Some viewers care, even some show only viewers noticed they were on the wrong side of the wall.

But, it's more to me how sloppy the show is and they assume that viewers both won't care and won't notice, even when these things could be taken care of w/1 line of dialogue or couple tweaks here and there. They never bother, it's like they have no pride in their own craft, which for the most expensive show in TV history, seems really odd and sad.

Thanks.

I haven’t been following much on viewer’s opinion on line, only people I know, most of them don’t care. But I’m glad if they notice those basic bugs.

I agree, a lot of inconsistencies could be fixed by a few lines of dialog, that makes me realize the little respect D&D have about ASOIAF…

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Lately I've been curious about something that has nothing to do with either the burning of Shireen or being on the wrong side of the wall and I'd be interested in your thoughts:

Does anyone find it strange that Cersei hasn't sent a letter to Jaime yet? For me, receiving and burning that letter was the crescendo in his arc and kind of the final nail in the coffin for Cersei's downfall. I find it weird that they omitted the "lancel, kettleblack and moon boy for all i know" speech last season and haven't even bothered to work in the fact that Jaime should be very angry with Cersei by now. Maybe Jaime is getting the Trystane treatment and is going to take the place of another character entirely?

I agree that Jaime should have started to see Cersei for who she is by now. I though they began to scratch the surface after Jaime said, "I would die in the arms of the woman I loved," and Bronn replied, "Would she want the same thing?" But they didn't bring the subject up again. As for the letter, Jaime is supposed to be on a top secret mission to Dorne, so there would be no way for Cersei to send a raven to him.

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Lately I've been curious about something that has nothing to do with either the burning of Shireen or being on the wrong side of the wall and I'd be interested in your thoughts:

Does anyone find it strange that Cersei hasn't sent a letter to Jaime yet? For me, receiving and burning that letter was the crescendo in his arc and kind of the final nail in the coffin for Cersei's downfall. I find it weird that they omitted the "lancel, kettleblack and moon boy for all i know" speech last season and haven't even bothered to work in the fact that Jaime should be very angry with Cersei by now. Maybe Jaime is getting the Trystane treatment and is going to take the place of another character entirely?

The trouble here is that they haven't established any reason for Jaime to fall out with Cersei. In the books Jaime comes to the realisation that Cersei never truly loved him the way he loved her and starts to see through her manipulation of him, but the show hasn't yet given him any reason to think that is the case. He hasn't watched her losing her mind, Tyrion never spoke his line and they never fully played up the way their relationship is significantly changed since he returned to KL less a hand.

So, I'm really not sure how it's going to play out and what the show has in store for them.

If he received a letter now and burned it, Jaime would look a bit of a dick to be honest.

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I agree that Jaime should have started to see Cersei for who she is by now. I though they began to scratch the surface after Jaime said, "I would die in the arms of the woman I loved," and Bronn replied, "Would she want the same thing?" But they didn't bring the subject up again. As for the letter, Jaime is supposed to be on a top secret mission to Dorne, so there would be no way for Cersei to send a raven to him.

But Cersei either had Qyburn send a letter off screen or she is expecting to hear from Jaime. The ep with septa Spoonella she asks Qybun, 'any word from Jaime?'

Or maybe it's not the ep w/ the septa, but one where she's locked up.

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Of course if you have the interest of the realm you want to have an heir especially one who has the legitimazy and support to prevent a civil war. Queen Elizabeth's rule at the end was a bit chaotic and if not for James England would have likely ened in another series of civil wars.

Perhaps she was more concerned with creating her own great rule, rather than worrying about the future. Those civil wars you speak of may have come much earlier if she had had children. As I said an heir creates a figurehead for the discontented to rally around. Even pretenders create that kind of chaos. If you add more heirs than you multiply the potential for plotting. Look at all of the plots that constantly surrounded Mary Queen of Scots while she lived. One of the reasons for the War of the Roses was because Edward the III had all of those children.

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LOL, what North? Is there even a "North" to rally? They seem pretty thin on the ground thus far.

Naw, Stannis won't burn Sansa. He'll burn Selyse and then forcibly marry Sansa, because that just can't happen to her enough, can it? Besides, he needs an heir now, doesn't he?

*shudder*

I apologize. I should head back to the Rant & Rave thread.

Thin or hidden?

If a Stark says follow Stannis they would, but they will not follow him past the Neck he's on his own then.

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But it’s not even about did we notice or not that they’re on the wrong side of the Wall (and we did, and we sure as hell should), that’s about that scene being devoid of any kind of life. Wildlings just shuffle liflessly, they’ve might as well be wighted already.


And when they are through, that’s all wrong, too. No life, no emotions, no relief, no despair, no grief for slaughtered, nothing. Black brothers are pissed, and Jon is sad. That’s all.


I mean, really...


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The trouble here is that they haven't established any reason for Jaime to fall out with Cersei. In the books Jaime comes to the realisation that Cersei never truly loved him the way he loved her and starts to see through her manipulation of him, but the show hasn't yet given him any reason to think that is the case. He hasn't watched her losing her mind, Tyrion never spoke his line and they never fully played up the way their relationship is significantly changed since he returned to KL less a hand.

So, I'm really not sure how it's going to play out and what the show has in store for them.

If he received a letter now and burned it, Jaime would look a bit of a dick to be honest.

You're right, Jaime hasn't really started to see the real cersei like he does in the books. So he doesn't really have any reason to burn the letter. He'd just look like a dick refusing to help his sister.

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The trouble here is that they haven't established any reason for Jaime to fall out with Cersei. In the books Jaime comes to the realisation that Cersei never truly loved him the way he loved her and starts to see through her manipulation of him, but the show hasn't yet given him any reason to think that is the case. He hasn't watched her losing her mind, Tyrion never spoke his line and they never fully played up the way their relationship is significantly changed since he returned to KL less a hand.

So, I'm really not sure how it's going to play out and what the show has in store for them.

If he received a letter now and burned it, Jaime would look a bit of a dick to be honest.

Yes, I would see Jaime as a dick and a self righteous fair weather lover if he ditched Cersei after she had one unimportant affair that is long over. That could hardly make up for a lifetime of love. Apart from that: She would still be his sister, treacherous lover or not.

In the show Jaime and Cersei may have fought but there hasn't been given any serious reason for Jaime to fall out of love with her. If anything he feels guilty towards her because freeing Tyrion caused their father's death in a way.

On the contrary: Jaime will not fall out of love because Cersei cheated on him, he will be desillusioned because she turns into a monster. She might get a compelling story towards that while in the books she already is quite monstrous. She will do horrible things and that will turn Jaime, he will have to choose between what morality is in him and his love for his sister.

The affairs as reason have always been a little thin for me even in the books, too much male pride hurt by cheating woman, this somehow does not count as redemption for me. There should be more emphasis on Jaime fundamentally disagreeing with Cersei's moral and political approach.

Edited by Woman of War

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Yes, I would see Jaime as a dick and a self righteous fair weather lover if he ditched Cersei after she had one unimportant affair that is long over. That could hardly make up for a lifetime of love. Apart from that: She would still be his sister, treacherous lover or not.

In the show Jaime and Cersei may have fought but there hasn't been given any serious reason for Jaime to fall out of love with her. If anything he feels guilty towards her because freeing Tyrion caused their father's death in a way.

On the contrary: Jaime will not fall out of love because Cersei cheated on him, he will be desillusioned because she turns into a monster. She might get a compelling story towards that while in the books she already is quite monstrous. She will do horrible things and that will turn Jaime, he will have to choose between what morality is in him and his love for his sister.

The affairs as reason have always been a little thin for me even in the books, too much male pride hurt by cheating woman, this somehow does not count as redemption for me. There should be more emphasis on Jaime fundamentally disagreeing with Cersei's moral and political approach.

I hinted at it in the comment you replied to, but I don't see the affairs as the only reason for Jaime turning against her in the books. Obviously the words get stuck in his brain, but I'm not even convinced he believed Tyrion's words. Jaime's outlook is fundamentally changed by his experiences with Brienne, even if he doesn't realise it fully until much later. Although they are initially pleased to see one-another when they reunite, it doesn't take long before Cersei outright says that he has changed. This fundamental change is most obviously represented by his missing his sword hand, but it goes deeper than that. I believe Cersei never truly loved Jaime, at least not in the way that he loved her, and she has been manipulating him all his life. What eventually turns him against her is that he starts to understand her manipulation of him and he starts seeing things in her he doesn't like (the growing madness, the burning of the Red Keep etc). I believe it was a mutual fall-out that was organically written throughout the time they shared in this period of time in KL when both of them had gone through traumatic events that shaped them into different people, that is until Cersei gets arrested and sends that letter (again, manipulation when she needs him).

It's much a deeper chasm that opens up between them than mere infidelity, and it's mutual up until Cersei's desperation.

Regarding 'redemption', what's is redemptive is his newfound desire to hold to his word and the desire to create a greater legacy for himself than that of the dishonourable Kingslayer. Now, this is still fairly egocentric but it's a start. He is no longer doing Cersei's bidding out of love ("the things I do for love") and Brienne's sense of honour has rubbed off on him.

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Yyou are right, Dolorous Gabe, but in the show he is not quite there. Yet they showed, during the boat trip, that Brienne is very present for Jaime.

But most of Cersei's deillusioning manipulations and and her getting more and more psychotic have not yet happened, Cersei may be mean, self centered and ruthless but so far she appears relatively sane given the situation she is in.

Does Jaime even realize how she (and Margaery) made use of Tommen? Does he know, does he care?

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TL;dr . I thought you stopped watching the show. You've been adamant about not watching the show and trying to ruin it for the viewers. So now you are watching the show? Your trolling is tiresome.

If I had a dollar for every asshole who proclaimed loudly they were done with the show, couldn't watch it any more because it's literally the worst show ever on TV, only to come back to the forum to complain about the next episode.....

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