Does Stannis still have your respect?

[HodoringHodor]

Stannis is still very much The Mannis. A good character, not a nice person.

There's a scene in season 1 where Aemon reveals his identity to Jon Snow and talks about hard choices that could be about Stannis as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pozI5n6A_Io

[The other prince]

Book!Stannis cut of Davos' fingers because he is an absolutist when it comes to the laws of the realm. Renly had to die because he was breaking the laws of succession. Gendry was a bastard with no claim to the throne. Shireen, on the other hand, broke no laws. She was as innocent as they get. Show!Stannis killing Shireen makes nonsense out of Stannis' established adherence to the laws of the realm. It is (1) killing an innocent, and (2) kinslaying.

You said it yourself though. He is an absolutist. You defeated your own argument here by including Gendry. He broke no laws, he had no claim on the throne. How was his preparing to burn him OK with you? No this actions just finally drives home what he has always been to his fans. A "Hard lesson" concerning viewing Stannis as a hero as Tywin might say.

[Blushingfae]

I guess what I would like to see in the show is a little more reasoning for Stannis following the Red Witch. They have made her mostly a prophet that reads fire and has nice boobies, that sometimes will put out for the King. In the book we literally witness her make a man take his own life with poison, I dont think we quite see what Mel's powers are besides magic bath salts.

[of man and wolf]

Actually by anyone's metrics he's had a stellar career. Held Storm's End for a year and secured his brother's victory by dividing Royal forces. Built a fleet from scratch and stormed Dragonstone. Destroyed the best fleet of the best sailors in all Westeros (and perhaps the world) after they'd been winning left and right. He managed to use force multiplying magic to assassinate his idiot brother (rightly I might add, given Renly had no qualms about killing him come sunrise and made sport of what to do with his body), then used it again to secure Storm's End and a new base of operations on the continent, both at the cost of not a single soldier. He then took in his brother's wayward bannermen, integrated them into a fleet composed of Royal Navy vessels, sellsails and pirates, brought them to the walls of kings landing. Even with wildfire decimating his vanguard and his plan shot to hell, he managed to ferry troops in a concerted attack that had the Great God GRRM not intervened on behalf of the Lannisters, he would have won.

After this defeat---which again was nearly a stunning victory in face of crazy odds---he pulled his shit together when Davos told him about the Wildling invasion, took a battered army of only 1500 men, inspiring them to cross 2,000+ miles of ocean and 500 miles of tundra to defeat an army twenty times their size. Having smashed the wildlings and saved the Wall, he then managed to make a settlement allowing the wildlings to pass through and supply manpower for the Nights Watch. He then, contrary to his own anti-social disposition, managed to win over several major Northern chiefs one after another, enough so that his army swelled by 3000 more men and he retook Deepwood Motte with ease, winning over those Northern lords you said don't want him. He sent Davos to do his diplomatic work in the east while he struck out for Winterfell at the urging of the Northerners, but also because it was the right thing to do given the groundswell of support and the keeping of "Arya" there.

He managed to march almost all the way there, even hampered by some insane northern blizzard, and even with all the starvation of his army, the general hopelessness of the situation, he pulls his shit together, uses good intelligence to find traitors in his midst, secures the Iron Banks loans (and no, they don't give two shits about Daenerys, and wisely given that Daenerys's track record at running a city state---let alone a kingdom the size of South America---is spotty at best. She's also not heading to Westeros. She's got things to do, sellswords to impress with one breasted dresses. You know, stuff ;) ) and manages to turn the icy terrain from a disadvantage to a tactical trump card. He's also about to get the support of Wyman Manderly and every other Northern house once the Boltons are bloodied enough for them to make their move. They want a Stark, they don't care if he's not King Stark, just that he's Lord Stark. And Stannis's man will ensure that happens. Together they're a dream team. They're Robert and Ned minus the whoring and poor decision making.

Anyways, you are so wrong it hurts. As for no one liking him :rofl: :rofl: Two ROFL emoticons for you.

Except all Stannis does is blindly follow a red witch and submits to her every desire. She's the one doing the leading, much like Davos warned Stannis. Stannis is a coward and imo lacks any sort of integrity or honour.

[Lord Roivas]

Stannis to an extent has to continue fighting to gain the throne or at least gather enough lords to fight the WW. I mean he could have chose to stay at the wall but it would have been for nothing. Bolton or someone else would have attacked and I feel you're kidding yourself if you think anyone but Stannis is even marginally aware of what's going on North of the wall. No help would ever come to them. After Mance's defeat and the joining/submission of the Freefolk, there was no more immediate threat to the Wall or the Watch. They were stable for the time being. WW's in the books haven't amassed to attack the wall in big numbers yet. He who defends everything defends nothing. I feel strategically he's making the smart move by trying to at least take the North. Though you could make an argument I could agree with to an extent for the opposite.

In book 5 I certainly didn't see Stannis as blindly following Melisandre. It certainly seemed to me at least he still considers her an ally but he has shifted more to Jon Snow and Davos by this point.

I personally think Stannis is deep down something of an Athiest or Agnostic. He wasn't convinced there was anything to Melisandre until he saw what she could do. That's not faith, that's knowledge, there is a difference. If she could do nothing and had no power he would have ignored her long ago.

[artihcus022]

Ultimately the best thing he could've done was to follow precedent and allow his younger brother to reign, but he chose the blood sorcery and shadowbinding kinslaying route.

What precedent is that? Aemon stepping aside for Egg had very specific circumstances. There was a dispute in the line of succession, a Great Council was called and Aemon was already a Maester of the Citadel.

In either case, Egg was obviously worthy of Aemon's generosity while Renly clearly wasn't.

Yes, Stannis responded and the immediately abandoned them to fend for themselves while he chased his white whale, the Iron Throne.

Since you are not capable of responding to actual logic and arguments, there's not much point discussing with you. But one final time:

The Iron Throne is not some white whale. He has legal claim to it, the children are bastards and he is the next oldest brother. The main reason people don't want Stannis, the likes of Lannisters, Pycelle, Varys, Littlefinger and the Tyrells mainly is that they are corrupt and nasty people and Stannis won't tolerate people like that. So they usurped his claim from him. The Tyrells also convinced Renly to revolt against Stannis saying he'll be Renly the Wise and Good, when he is clearly no such thing.

A WW threat in the north would be a great way for the Lannisters and Boltons to consolidate power...

You are absurdly naive but whatever, to each his own self-delusion.

Yep, saw hardhome. The Wall was built with the express purpose of defending against a WW invasion. It's major problem now is it's castles are undermanned. Stannis army would have been able to defend the entire length. Instead, the WW will now likely get past the wall and invade the south.

And if the White Walkers come how will the Watch fight or halt them? Hmmm...Tell me that. They need support and guidance on the highest level. But fine.

Yes, Stannis responded and the immediately abandoned them to fend for themselves while he chased his white whale, the Iron Throne.

What changed is with Stannis relinquishing his claim to the throne, the civil war would be officially over.

A WW threat in the north would be a great way for the Lannisters and Boltons to consolidate power once they no longer have to worry about threats to their reigns. Give the people a big scary threat to account for the increase in taxes needed to pay back the Iron Bank.

Yep, saw hardhome. The Wall was built with the express purpose of defending against a WW invasion. It's major problem now is it's castles are undermanned. Stannis army would have been able to defend the entire length. Instead, the WW will now likely get past the wall and invade the south.

[LittleMissTyrell]

Stannis ? Respect? Nah

[Night'sQueen]

... He has sold his soul for power.

Exactly.

I have never understood the Stannis love on this Board. What he did to his own brother turned me against him way back when.However, GRRM has an amazing ability to really change his readers' opinions about characters, being able to totally turn around the feelings people have had for some of them. I loathed Jaime Lannister for quite a while....

Ditto. The Stannis love is a mystery to me and came as a bit of a shock when I first joined the forum. He is an interesting tragic character, but a hero or person to admire and root for? No.

[artihcus022]

Ditto. The Stannis love is a mystery to me and came as a bit of a shock when I first joined the forum. He is an interesting tragic character, but a hero or person to admire and root for? No.

Well the Tywin love isn't as mysterious for some reason. You know guy who destroyed an innocent girl for zero justifications but you have many fans with a straight face, claim that Tywin's RW is justified that somehow he was the victimized party and that Tywin totally had to do what he did to protect the Lannister name after Tytos ruined it. They also forgive Theon wholesale and the like.

What I don't get is the knee-jerk Pavlovian about turn. Like if someone does something bad, you automatically turn on him and reject that part of your self that liked that guy. That to me is absurd.

Stannis is meant to be a complex character, not someone easily liked or disliked, and you know that quality is attractive. His underdog sensibility, the fact that he's been passed over and slighted all his life obviously strikes a chord for people as well. He's forced to do bad things and resort to magical means to get what is denied to him by legal and fair means, to do his duty and serve the realm, and in the end, all his actions will lead lead him to be regarded as an evil Dark Lord who will be hated and remembered as a monster by an ungrateful realm.

There are people who are like that in history you know. Richard III, Stannis' inspiration, for one. 700 years had to pass until he got buried as the Last True Plantagenet King of England.

[Eugs]

No

[Night'sQueen]

Well the Tywin love isn't as mysterious for some reason. You know guy who destroyed an innocent girl for zero justifications but you have many fans with a straight face, claim that Tywin's RW is justified that somehow he was the victimized party and that Tywin totally had to do what he did to protect the Lannister name after Tytos ruined it. They also forgive Theon wholesale and the like.

What I don't get is the knee-jerk Pavlovian about turn. Like if someone does something bad, you automatically turn on him and reject that part of your self that liked that guy. That to me is absurd.

Stannis is meant to be a complex character, not someone easily liked or disliked, and you know that quality is attractive. His underdog sensibility, the fact that he's been passed over and slighted all his life obviously strikes a chord for people as well. He's forced to do bad things and resort to magical means to get what is denied to him by legal and fair means, to do his duty and serve the realm, and in the end, all his actions will lead lead him to be regarded as an evil Dark Lord who will be hated and remembered as a monster by an ungrateful realm.

There are people who are like that in history you know. Richard III, Stannis' inspiration, for one. 700 years had to pass until he got buried as the Last True Plantagenet King of England.

Hey, thanks for the little history lesson! ;)

I'm not sure how any of what you said applies to my comment though, and I am aware of the literary and historical parallels GRRM has made throughout the series. I just don't understand (still) how Stannis inspires such rabid fandom or how he is viewed as a good guy. To your point, yes, people are fans of and defend other characters who do despicable things. But from what I've seen it doesn't come close to the fervor over Stannis. Then again, I've been away for quite awhile so maybe I missed Tywin-mania. :dunno:

And have there been a lot of knee-jerk reactions? Book!Stannis fans seem to be defending the StanMan by saying that he would never do this and it is a character assassination by D&D. Time will tell.

[artihcus022]

I just don't understand (still) how Stannis inspires such rabid fandom or how he is viewed as a good guy. To your point, yes, people are fans of and defend other characters who do despicable things. But from what I've seen it doesn't come close to the fervor over Stannis. Then again, I've been away for quite awhile so maybe I missed Tywin-mania. :dunno:

And have there been a lot of knee-jerk reactions? Book!Stannis fans seem to be defending the StanMan by saying that he would never do this and it is a character assassination by D&D. Time will tell.

I am not going to presume that Book!Stannis wouldn't do this, but its perfectly clear from the books that he wouldn't do it for "ambition" (to use the showrunners weasel word) and he wouldn't do it because he's terrified of Ramsay Magneto and His 20 Ninjas. And he and Shireen are far apart. If and when it happens, it will be far later in the books and as GRRM would write it, it would be in character, fitting and organic and not insulting to the readers.

Of all the five kings, Stannis is definitely the "good guy" after Robb Stark. GRRM himself said that Stannis is a "righteous man". Of all of Westeros, Stannis was the only one who listened to Aemon's summons, he is as Sam Tarly calls him, "The King Who Cared". So we are supposed to see him very positively at the end of Book 3 and in Book 5, we are meant to totally root for him. Jon Snow dislikes Stannis slightly, finds him cold, abrasive and is skeptical of Melisandre, but he becomes Stannis' Number 1 fan nonetheless. He calls him King in his own thoughts, gives him cheat codes on how to win the North and provides him the genius Northern strategy. In the case of Melisandre, we finally see a sympathetic side to her (which the show totally botched for no reason).

In other words, Stannis may not be the King Westeros deserves (the one that Varys feels Faegon will be) but he is the one they need to face the Long Night. He's the Defender of the Night's Watch, the Liberator of the North, The Dark King. Does that mean that Stannis will win the Game of Thrones, not necessarily, does that mean his hands and conscience won't be tested, absolutely not, because its precisely because Stannis has a conscience and moral sensibility that he's going to be tested severely because that's why the books exist.

This is GRRM and ASOIAF, books which uses fantasy to talk about difficult moral questions. In a realistic story, Jaime Lannister trying to kill Bran would make him a bad guy, but we later see him as a good guy and accept who he is and why he does it. That's what it comes down to. The drama of Stannis in the situation we see in Episode 9 works because Stannis is a good guy and he's forced to do something really evil to serve the greater good.

[Frey Pie]

I read the forums all weeK but didn't watch the show until today.

And I have to say that the burning of Shireen is truly horrible. With that in mind show stannis deserves the worst death one can get, and Mel with him. I hope his men desert him in his time of need, who wants to follow a monster?

Book stannis...All depends on how true what the producers said about george was

[Biglose]

On a side note:

Is it just me, or was the Champion of the god of fire just beaten twice by people using FIRE against him?

Really?

Yeah, take a hint, your god sucks.

[RoamingRonin]

Ditto. The Stannis love is a mystery to me and came as a bit of a shock when I first joined the forum. He is an interesting tragic character, but a hero or person to admire and root for? No.

I just don't get why people would hinge their hopes on someone so obviously doomed.

On a side note:

Is it just me, or was the Champion of the god of fire just beaten twice by people using FIRE against him?

Really?

Yeah, take a hint, your god sucks.

Honestly, after the Blackwater, Stannis should have strangled Mel to death. That was one scene the show did right (except he doesn't kill her like he should have!). She predicts he will win if he kills his brother and follows all her other instructions, and he does exactly as she tells him but still fails spectacularly. Then she turns around says "Oh, you would have won if I was there..." What? Why didn't you say that to begin with?!

Imagine if a Florent lord told Stannis to kill Renly and he would surely win the Blackwater and then he goes and loses anyway. That guy would die in pieces.

[kissdbyfire]

Do I respect Stannis? Course I do. Book Stannis, not Satannis.

They've managed to turn an interesting character into the 'evulest', worst, most despised monster n GoT.

He's much worse than Joffrey & Ramsay. Combined.

It was obvious from his first scene that D&D didn't like the character, and we know what happens to those.

Only thing left now is for him to die ASAP. On Sunday, please. First frame of the episode.

Let's all root for Ramsay the Ninja. He's a nice bloke, he's just a bit misunderstood. He has a gf, and he loves dogs, how bad can he be?

[ummester]

Let's all root for Ramsay the Ninja. He's a nice bloke, he's just a bit misunderstood. He has a gf, and he loves dogs, how bad can he be?

Ramsay redemption arc is coming. Ramsay is a secret Targ! Ramsay for Azor Ahai!

Seriously, between how ambiguous the books are and how convoluted the show has gotten, I would not be surprised if Ramsay saved the day. He might have to stab Sansa in the guts to do so though, he'll need his Nissa Nissa.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Ramsay redemption arc is coming. Ramsay is a secret Targ! Ramsay for Azor Ahai!

Seriously, between how ambiguous the books are and how convoluted the show has gotten, I would not be surprised if Ramsay saved the day. He might have to stab Sansa in the guts to do so though, he'll need his Nissa Nissa.

I understand the show creators "creative freedom" rights but truly, they fucked up this book series, starting with this season and the Sansa/Ramsay arc is so unsettling and nonesensical at the same time. Ramsay is supposed to be "a beast in human skin", a monster to even look at. It is insane.

[kissdbyfire]

Ramsay redemption arc is coming. Ramsay is a secret Targ! Ramsay for Azor Ahai!

Seriously, between how ambiguous the books are and how convoluted the show has gotten, I would not be surprised if Ramsay saved the day. He might have to stab Sansa in the guts to do so though, he'll need his Nissa Nissa.

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm assuming you're not talking about book!Ramsay. There's nothing ambiguous about Ramsay in the books, at all.

[midi]

I understand the show creators "creative freedom" rights but truly, they fucked up this book series, starting with this season and the Sansa/Ramsay arc is so unsettling and nonesensical at the same time. Ramsay is supposed to be "a beast in human skin", a monster to even look at. It is insane.

And in your opinion, this is not what he is in the show? He might be a bit smarter than simply a beast in human skin since he managed to pull off the Stannis' camp operation (Ramsay "Delta Force" Bolton), but other than that he is just as bad as in the books. AND there is absolutely NO HINT in the show of any kind of redemption arc for him... the watchers would never buy into that anyway. You might as well have had a redemption arc for Joffrey.