Does Stannis still have your respect?

[ummester]

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm assuming you're not talking about book!Ramsay. There's nothing ambiguous about Ramsay in the books, at all.

There is an off chance he could be Reek 1, not even Roose' actual son.

[kissdbyfire]

There is an off chance he could be Reek 1, not even Roose' actual son.

Huh? No, there isn't.

Actually by anyone's metrics he's had a stellar career. Held Storm's End for a year and secured his brother's victory by dividing Royal forces. Built a fleet from scratch and stormed Dragonstone. Destroyed the best fleet of the best sailors in all Westeros (and perhaps the world) after they'd been winning left and right. He managed to use force multiplying magic to assassinate his idiot brother (rightly I might add, given Renly had no qualms about killing him come sunrise and made sport of what to do with his body), then used it again to secure Storm's End and a new base of operations on the continent, both at the cost of not a single soldier. He then took in his brother's wayward bannermen, integrated them into a fleet composed of Royal Navy vessels, sellsails and pirates, brought them to the walls of kings landing. Even with wildfire decimating his vanguard and his plan shot to hell, he managed to ferry troops in a concerted attack that had the Great God GRRM not intervened on behalf of the Lannisters, he would have won.

After this defeat---which again was nearly a stunning victory in face of crazy odds---he pulled his shit together when Davos told him about the Wildling invasion, took a battered army of only 1500 men, inspiring them to cross 2,000+ miles of ocean and 500 miles of tundra to defeat an army twenty times their size. Having smashed the wildlings and saved the Wall, he then managed to make a settlement allowing the wildlings to pass through and supply manpower for the Nights Watch. He then, contrary to his own anti-social disposition, managed to win over several major Northern chiefs one after another, enough so that his army swelled by 3000 more men and he retook Deepwood Motte with ease, winning over those Northern lords you said don't want him. He sent Davos to do his diplomatic work in the east while he struck out for Winterfell at the urging of the Northerners, but also because it was the right thing to do given the groundswell of support and the keeping of "Arya" there.

He managed to march almost all the way there, even hampered by some insane northern blizzard, and even with all the starvation of his army, the general hopelessness of the situation, he pulls his shit together, uses good intelligence to find traitors in his midst, secures the Iron Banks loans (and no, they don't give two shits about Daenerys, and wisely given that Daenerys's track record at running a city state---let alone a kingdom the size of South America---is spotty at best. She's also not heading to Westeros. She's got things to do, sellswords to impress with one breasted dresses. You know, stuff ;) ) and manages to turn the icy terrain from a disadvantage to a tactical trump card. He's also about to get the support of Wyman Manderly and every other Northern house once the Boltons are bloodied enough for them to make their move. They want a Stark, they don't care if he's not King Stark, just that he's Lord Stark. And Stannis's man will ensure that happens. Together they're a dream team. They're Robert and Ned minus the whoring and poor decision making.

Anyways, you are so wrong it hurts. As for no one liking him :rofl: :rofl: Two ROFL emoticons for you.

:bowdown:

[Pumpkin G. Snark]

Well, it’s extremely hard to see Stannis-ep9-choice as a right one. Now there’s a great distance even between him and Dany, with all her crucifictions, beheadings and burnings. Book-Daenerys and show-Daenerys are very much the same in this. But book-Stannis and show-Stannis are not. It’s like 3D to 2D. For me, show-Stannis now only waits for Brienne’s Oathkeeper. But book-Stannis still has some interesting path before him.

I can’t imagine what show-Stannis could do now to counter-balance his ep9 scene.

[kissdbyfire]

And in your opinion, this is not what he is in the show? He might be a bit smarter than simply a beast in human skin since he managed to pull off the Stannis' camp operation (Ramsay "Delta Force" Bolton), but other than that he is just as bad as in the books. AND there is absolutely NO HINT in the show of any kind of redemption arc for him... the watchers would never buy into that anyway. You might as well have had a redemption arc for Joffrey.

Only he isn't as bad as he is in the books. Ninja Ramsay has a freaking girlfriend, a relationship with a woman!!! That's a character that has nothing at all to do with his book counterpart.

People are now rooting for Ramsay in a Satannis v Boltons scenario.

Well, its extremely hard to see Stannis-ep9-choice as a right one. Now theres a great distance even between him and Dany, with all her crucifictions, beheadings and burnings. Book-Daenerys and show-Daenerys are very much the same in this. But book-Stannis and show-Stannis are not. Its like 3D to 2D. For me, show-Stannis now only waits for Briennes Oathkeeper. But book-Stannis still has some interesting path before him.

I cant imagine what show-Stannis could do now to counter-balance his ep9 scene.

Because there's absolutely nothing the show character can do to counter burning his daughter alive for no reason at all. His sole purpose now is to be killed by Brienne.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

People are now rooting for Ramsay in a Satannis v Boltons scenario.

I think the problem is not that much that they have turned Stannis into Satannis but they have made Ramsay into something a bit.. likeable. This is the guy who has flayed people, men, women and children alike; he has not only raped women but also tortured them into chasing them with dogs before kill them. Even when that along would make for an interesting villain, GRRM has not made him such: he's there doing these things without any kind of inspection of his mind because Martin doesn't want him explored. D&D have chosen to make him interesting and want him explored :dunno:

They hadn't explored Stannis. The easiest assumption people make about Stannis is that he's some fanatic who burns people. It's something that look like this at first. But Stannis has more layers than an onion (knight). That's why Stannis, along with Dany, are the most polemic characters around here. They are not easy to analyse. People don't discuss if Ramsay is good or bad. That's something we have with Dany and Stannis due to them walking on the line between.

[Le Cygne]

I think the problem is not that much that they have turned Stannis into Satannis but they have made Ramsay into something a bit.. likeable. This is the guy who has flayed people, men, women and children alike; he has not only raped women but also tortured them into chasing them with dogs before kill them. Even when that along would make for an interesting villain, GRRM has not made him such: he's there doing these things without any kind of inspection of his mind because Martin doesn't want him explored. D&D have chosen to make him interesting and want him explored :dunno:

They hadn't explored Stannis. The easiest assumption people make about Stannis is that he's some fanatic who burns people. It's something that look like this at first. But Stannis has more layers than an onion (knight). That's why Stannis, along with Dany, are the most polemic characters around here. They are not easy to analyse. People don't discuss if Ramsay is good or bad. That's something we have with Dany and Stannis due to them walking on the line between.

Excellent points, the bold is important, there are characters like Ramsay and Jeyne who were not meant to be given such a close look, that's not their purpose in the story. But for some reason, they decided to focus on Ramsay, of all people (not even the Jeyne substitute who is played by a formerly main character).

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Excellent points, the bold is important, there are characters like Ramsay and Jeyne who were not meant to be given such a close look, that's not their purpose in the story. But for some reason, they decided to focus on Ramsay, of all people (not even the Jeyne substitute who is played by a formerly main character).

Evil plays better on screen. He's an absolutely insane character who decides to torture the identity out of a man and make him a trusted servant rather than getting info and killing him. I'm sure that one detail alone interested the writers. That being said, this is not the Ramsay show. It's Game of Thrones not Dexter. He's a lunatic and he needs to die.

[Le Cygne]

Only he isn't as bad as he is in the books. Ninja Ramsay has a freaking girlfriend, a relationship with a woman!!! That's a character that has nothing at all to do with his book counterpart.

People are now rooting for Ramsay in a Satannis v Boltons scenario.

Because there's absolutely nothing the show character can do to counter burning his daughter alive for no reason at all. His sole purpose now is to be killed by Brienne.

Ninja Ramsay! Satannis! Who the hell are these characters. They turned it into a bad comic book.

[kissdbyfire]

I think the problem is not that much that they have turned Stannis into Satannis but they have made Ramsay into something a bit.. likeable. This is the guy who has flayed people, men, women and children alike; he has not only raped women but also tortured them into chasing them with dogs before kill them. Even when that along would make for an interesting villain, GRRM has not made him such: he's there doing these things without any kind of inspection of his mind because Martin doesn't want him explored. D&D have chosen to make him interesting and want him explored :dunno:

They hadn't explored Stannis. The easiest assumption people make about Stannis is that he's some fanatic who burns people. It's something that look like this at first. But Stannis has more layers than an onion (knight). That's why Stannis, along with Dany, are the most polemic characters around here. They are not easy to analyse. People don't discuss if Ramsay is good or bad. That's something we have with Dany and Stannis due to them walking on the line between.

Yes, I totally agree. I suppose I've focused my previous response on how much they have demonised Satannis, and didn't bring up the humanisation of Ramsay, which is just as bad a choice.

[Le Cygne]

Evil plays better on screen. He's an absolutely insane character who decides to torture the identity out of a man and make him a trusted servant rather than getting info and killing him. I'm sure that one detail alone interested the writers. That being said, this is not the Ramsay show. It's Game of Thrones not Dexter. He's a lunatic and he needs to die.

I don't agree that evil plays better on screen, but even so, they cast someone nice looking to play him, and gave him a girlfriend, and got into his backstory, etc. That's not exactly playing up evil.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Yes, I totally agree. I suppose I've focused my previous response on how much they have demonised Satannis, and didn't bring up the humanisation of Ramsay, which is just as bad a choice.

Agreed.

[artihcus022]

Excellent points, the bold is important, there are characters like Ramsay and Jeyne who were not meant to be given such a close look, that's not their purpose in the story. But for some reason, they decided to focus on Ramsay, of all people (not even the Jeyne substitute who is played by a formerly main character).

I think the reason is that they like the lumpen aspect of Ramsay. That is to say they relate to Ramsay as an Alex DeLarge type in Westeros. They see Ramsay as a villain made by a society that is fundamentally corrupt and classist and, in a lumpen view of things, someone like Ramsay is preferable to people who believe in Lords, Kings, Guest Right and Chivalry like the Starks, Stannis and Sansa. They likewise give scenes of Myranda taking over Mya Stone for no miserable reason. They tend to glorify the likes of Karl Tanner, the Legend of Gin Alley and others. Apparently Jon Snow has more to learn fighting Karl Tanner the knife fighter, nearly losing to him, than he did at Winterfell (conveniently forgetting the importance that Castle Forged Training has in a class system).

I think the main reason is that the showrunners are not able, or willing, to get into the feudal mindset that is what GRRM wants to do. That's why they can't relate at all to Stannis and so glorify Renly for nonsenical reasons. Renly the Wise and Good, Renly the Falsely Charming is made into proto-JFK in the show (the real JFK is closer to Robert Baratheon with LBJ as Stannis and RFK as Renly but whatever).

In the books Stannis represents the progressive parts of feudalism, the development of the Common Law (which is Stannis' dream project), habeas corpus and the Magna Carta, all important in establishing civilization and all coming from the Age of Game of Thrones in Real Life but is otherwise not yet developed in the series.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

//

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes, I totally agree. I suppose I've focused my previous response on how much they have demonised Satannis, and didn't bring up the humanisation of Ramsay, which is just as bad a choice.

They have chosen to make him the antiJon (their words). That could work in a better context, but definitely doesn't work here. For once, they are not even contrasted enough for people to make those connections. The only thing they have in common is that they both are/were Snow. Funny thing, the one guy who is the opposite of Jon (Aegon) hasn't even been cast.

[Le Cygne]

The better focus would have been Theon, that's the more interesting story, but they put him in the background. They are supporting players for The Ramsay Show.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I don't agree that evil plays better on screen, but even so, they cast someone nice looking to play him, and gave him a girlfriend, and got into his backstory, etc. That's not exactly playing up evil.

Well he had his girlfriend storyline after a season of eating sausage in front of a sausage-less Theon. He was pretty darn evil. But yes, attractive in a Hobbity way and they did give him an actual girlfriend which makes no sense, and made Roose inform him about his mother instead of him knowing all along...everything they did to make him a sympathetic character was wrong.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

The better focus would have been Theon, that's the more interesting story, but they put him in the background. They are supporting players for The Ramsay Show.

Completely agree with this. Theon pre-torture we got all the time, post torture-when his story became emotional and important--he's been in the background

[Le Cygne]

They have chosen to make him the antiJon (their words). That could work in a better context, but definitely doesn't work here. For once, they are not even contrasted enough for people to make those connections. The only thing they have in common is that they both are/were Snow. Funny thing, the one guy who is the opposite of Jon (Aegon) hasn't even been cast.

They do this with other characters, too, they force contrasts or parallels for characters that don't exist, or that exist in very broad ways. It's like they aren't comfortable telling stories without gimmicks.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't agree that evil plays better on screen, but even so, they cast someone nice looking to play him, and gave him a girlfriend, and got into his backstory, etc. That's not exactly playing up evil.

Evil plays better on screen because evil is able to touch us in a way good cannot.

The problem nowadays with evil in media is that people mix up appealing with sympathetic. Look at Maleficent. They kinda gave her a "rape background history" so people would feel sympathy towards her. Idem for Norma Bates*. Sometimes, evil needs to remain mere and plain evil because evil is not a person, evil is a symbol for something.

(*I don't watch Bates Motel, nor I've read the books but I've heard comments. I might be wrong about this, so, apologize in advance if I do)

[ADanceWithCats]

I think/hope that Ramsay is fey...

(I also hope he survives and joins the Others willingly as a species traitor. If for no other reason than to see him square off against Jon.)

As for Stannis, he has my pity. He has made a deal with the devil (going by Lucifer = The Bringer of Light) and that took him too far. He also has my empathy, because I think I would have fallen into the same trap as he - just like he, I'm pretty utilitarian irl, and prefer to see the bigger picture over individual lives.

That said, because I prefer to see the bigger picture, I'm the most interested in the entire game, not in each individual player.