Does Stannis still have your respect?

[Le Cygne]

Evil plays better on screen because evil is able to touch us in a way good cannot.

The problem nowadays with evil in media is that people mix up appealing with sympathetic. Look at Maleficent. They kinda gave her a "rape background history" so people would feel sympathy towards her. Idem for Norma Bates*. Sometimes, evil needs to remain mere and plain evil because evil is not a person, evil is a symbol for something.

(*I don't watch Bates Motel, nor I've read the books but I've heard comments. I might be wrong about this, so, apologize in advance if I do)

Whether evil plays better in print or on screen, I'd say that depends on the writer. Whether evil plays better than good on screen, I don't see that at all. I'm thinking of many stories where good was incredibly moving. I think one of the big problems with this show is they've turned it into a melodrama, they are getting into good and evil too much, whereas there should be shades of gray. And giving more weight to minor characters and less weight to main characters is upsetting the balance of the story.

[Bronn Urgandy]

This isn't thread specific because I see this a lot. But is there anything more obnoxious than comments about "not understanding the fanbase because he's not vital to the endgame blah blah blah"? Being told that you can't like a character fervently because they are "not vital to the endgame" is actually quite insulting. Should probably go back to two dimensional dark vs light fantasy if that's how you feel, a lot of us however prefer Boromir to Aragorn for a reason.

Is it not possible that some people simple enjoy the big, bald, clouded character who, unlike our teenage hero archetypes like Dany and Jon, is going to keep us guessing right up until the very end of his arc? A lot of liking Stannis is hoping he does the right thing in the end while fearing that he won't.

I am looking forward to his story playing out far more than I am just about any other character, whether he has a tragic downfall like in the show, whether he dies fighting the Boltons and it just turns out that D&D wanted to spit on his name one last time (I wouldn't doubt it), or whether he fights an Other and his sword shatters, going down uttering a final, gritty one liner (his one liners are easily the best in the series). One thing I am not looking forward to is the obnoxious backlash on the forums when it all inevitably goes wrong for him, as if Stannis fans are somehow blind and stupid and can't see it playing out this way because we cheer him on regardless. Just happens he's probably the best written character in the saga, as evidenced by wars he can cause between readers of the series and how much support his doomed cause rallies amongst readers.

Which leads me on to the thread specific bit. Stannis is so savagely simplified in the show that most of that has basically been removed. Instead of an natural characters actions we've got a square peg in a round hole in order to follow the scripts.

[kissdbyfire]

Whether evil plays better in print or on screen, I'd say that depends on the writer. Whether evil plays better than good on screen, I don't see that at all. I'm thinking of many stories where good was incredibly moving. I think one of the big problems with this show is they've turned it into a melodrama, they are getting into good and evil too much, whereas there should be shades of gray. And giving more weight to minor characters and less weight to main characters is upsetting the balance of the story.

After all, Martin didn't choose who is a main character and who isn't for hoots and giggles.

[calo760]

Yes, I still respect Stannis, and he has always been the tragic character of the story. Shireens sacrifice has always been in the cards for his storyline.. and i feel like his story is one the most important, definitely the most interesting, part of the series. The biggest part of his story is that he is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, but no one accepts him as king, so his support is weaker than his enemies. What Stannis has helping him is God and magic. He put his faith into this religion, not even believing that it is real, because his back is against a wall and he is running out of options. And Melisandres magic HAS been helping Stannis,. unless Stannis is the King of Coincidence... otherwise he killed the other 4 contenders from the War of Five Kings through shadowbinding and blood magic. So..if Melisandres magic is real, and her God is true..then maybe the sacrifice WAS a good thing. Obviously not just anyone can be sacrficed..for it to qualify as a 'sacrifice'(besides having kingsblood) it has to be something that Stannis loves and that is difficult/nearly impossible to get rid of..that is what a sacrifice is. "If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."

The fact of the matter is the sacrifice is meant for the greater good. We are not certain the Red God is real, but at this point Stannis is very convinced, and he is not about to lost faith when he needs it the most.

I think the sacrifice will work in Stannis' favor and Shireens death will not be in vain...and by the end of the series i think that we will discover that the Lord of Light is real and Melisandre is truely good. Though the theme throughout the story is that there is no true good or true evil..but i think in the end WE WILL see true good vs true evil.

If the Red God and Melisandres magic turn out to be false and Shireens sacrifice was unnecessary.. that would be a bigger let down than Dany being eaten by her dragon before getting to Westeros, or Jon dying and never finding out who his mother is.. the entire storyline would have been mostly pointless.. and that would be a very sad ending. The story will be SO much better if R'hllor is real.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Not in the show. That character is a mess, even though Stephen Dillane manages to make me feel sympathy for him.

In the books, yes. People who are calling him a loser are making a very bland interpretation in the lines of some (not all of them) Stannis the Mannis fans who see him as a straight testorone hero. So fucking what if he is doomed? That makes him a tragic figure and an interesting character. Ned is an awesome creation and he was doomed from the start. Even though Stannis knows he will be broken in his pursuit he remains fighting in the most dire situations. He is a bitter, cold and unforgiven man but stop kidding yourselves that just because that awful show made him burn his daughter in a ridiculous situation, Stannis is now a straight monster with no redeeming qualities. There is no reason for me to start disliking one of Martin's best creations because the showrunners messed up every storyline beyond repair.

Team Dragonstone was a great addition to the story as well as the ironborn, the Boltons and the Martell. If those guys weren't around I wouldn't be so obsessed with the series as I am.

[kissdbyfire]

Not in the show. That character is a mess, even though Stephen Dillane manages to make me feel sympathy for him.

In the books, yes. People who are calling him a loser are making a very bland interpretation in the lines of some (not all of them) Stannis the Mannis fans who see him as a straight testorone hero. So fucking what if he is doomed? That makes him a tragic figure and an interesting character. Ned is an awesome creation and he was doomed from the start. Even though Stannis knows he will be broken in his pursuit he remains fighting in the most dire situations. He is a bitter, cold and unforgiven man but stop kidding yourselves that just because that awful show made him burn his daughter in a ridiculous situation, Stannis is now a straight monster with no redeeming qualities. There is no reason for me to start disliking one of Martin's best creations because the showrunners messed up every storyline beyond repair.

Team Dragonstone was a great addition to the story as well as the ironborn, the Boltons and the Martell. If those guys weren't around I wouldn't be so obsessed with the series as I am.

That's another thing. The cast is so fantastic, and we have all these great actors being utterly wasted. I love Stephen Dillane, and I'm sure he would have been absolutely incredible playing the real Stannis.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

That's another thing. The cast is so fantastic, and we have all these great actors being utterly wasted. I love Stephen Dillane, and I'm sure he would have been absolutely incredible playing the real Stannis.

Imagine how wonderful Dillane would be profering all Stannis' memorable lines and speeches on screen! I wouldn't have any other actor for the part.

[Night'sQueen]

... And Melisandres magic HAS been helping Stannis,. unless Stannis is the King of Coincidence...

Maybe Mel is the queen of coincidence? Or maybe she is capable of seeing what will happen and manages to take credit for it?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

I´ll talk only show Stannis now... the sacrifice of his own daughter was terrible and he will regret it to his death, but lets remind ourselves it was HIS daughter, who was loved by him above anyone else (Davos is close) because even Selyse's late maternal reaction didn´t show that she loved Shireen as much as Stannis...

So bottom line, no one is suffering more than Stannis from his decision, no one...

Respect is a tricky word, and better judged when he dies and with all his life's actions on the table (what if his sacrifice actually saved thousands of his men and WF? and the lives of the people he already saved at the wall, and at hardhome by giving Jon the ships?), but i'm STILL on his team until the end, not because he's a good person, because he's not... but because he is, to me, still the best choice...

Now, will he end up king on the IT?? Heck no, not even in the books i would bet that...

He will have a tragic end, i just hope it's a badass one... a suicide charge Hurin style

[kissdbyfire]

Maybe Mel is the queen of coincidence? Or maybe she is capable of seeing what will happen and manages to take credit for it?

:agree:

I´ll talk only show Stannis now... the sacrifice of his own daughter was terrible and he will regret it to his death, but lets remind ourselves it was HIS daughter, who was loved by him above anyone else (Davos is close) because even Selyse's late maternal reaction didn´t show that she loved Shireen as much as Stannis...

So bottom line, no one is suffering more than Stannis from his decision, no one...

Respect is a tricky word, and better judged when he dies and with all his life's actions on the table (what if his sacrifice actually saved thousands of his men and WF? and the lives of the people he already saved at the wall, and at hardhome by giving Jon the ships?), but i'm STILL on his team until the end, not because he's a good person, because he's not... but because he is, to me, still the best choice...

Now, will he end up king on the IT?? Heck no, not even in the books i would bet that...

He will have a tragic end, i just hope it's a badass one... a suicide charge Hurin style

But the problem with the show is that it failed miserably at establishing a strong enough motive for this ultimate sacrifice.

So, regardless of what book Stannis does, and the context in which he does it, show Satannis will have a very different arc. Even if the main points, ordering Shireen's immolation and then failing and dying, are the same - gotta tick all the plot point boxes! - the situation, the motivation, and the context for/of these actions and their consequences will be completely different.

[olibar]

The Iron Throne is not some white whale. He has legal claim to it, the children are bastards and he is the next oldest brother. The main reason people don't want Stannis, the likes of Lannisters, Pycelle, Varys, Littlefinger and the Tyrells mainly is that they are corrupt and nasty people and Stannis won't tolerate people like that. So they usurped his claim from him. The Tyrells also convinced Renly to revolt against Stannis saying he'll be Renly the Wise and Good, when he is clearly no such thing.

And if the White Walkers come how will the Watch fight or halt them? Hmmm...Tell me that. They need support and guidance on the highest level. But fine.

Chasing a white whale doesn't refer to chasing something that doesn't exist, it refers to being so obsessed with accomplishing something that it destroys you and those around you. I think that describes Stannis pretty well.

As far as his claim is concerned, the only reason he has it because his brother usurped the throne from the Targaryans. That said, with no independent legal system in Westeros, claims of who has a legal right to the throne don't matter, you either have a high enough level of support from the lords that no one else would challenge you or if the level of support is even enough between two or more claimants a civil war decides the outcome. This of course, has been the state of Westeros since Robert's rebellion though the civil war remained a "cold" war during the long summer leading up to his death.

Stannis, currently, is in the same position as Robb Stark was at the end of GoT, hoping to rally the north and push south to take the Iron Throne and he may well be able to do so, but at what cost to the already war torn kingdom? Is Littlefinger likely to bend the knee to Stannis? I think not. Nor would the Lanisters. So once again, we are left with a situation where the seven kingdoms end up in a bloody civil war, taxing resources that could better be used to fight the white walkers.

Had Stannis taken the black and joined his army to the wall, how would that be seen by the South? It would mean that the civil war is officially over. I think it very likely that a request for Dragonglass would be honored to better equip his soldiers. With Stannis support and guidance as a brother of the Night Watch, perhaps they would prevail.

I admit I did not like Stannis at the start of the books. When he showed up at the wall, I thought maybe I had misunderstood him, and started to respect him. I thought facing the prospect of murdering his own daughter would finally be the moment he would change his path. But with GRRM, characters don't overcome their tragic flaws, they are destroyed by them.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

But the problem with the show is that it failed miserably at establishing a strong enough motive for this ultimate sacrifice.

So, regardless of what book Stannis does, and the context in which he does it, show Satannis will have a very different arc. Even if the main points, ordering Shireen's immolation and then failing and dying, are the same - gotta tick all the plot point boxes! - the situation, the motivation, and the context for/of these actions and their consequences will be completely different.

I have almost 20 rants about the book Stannis assassination since Sunday... he may do it regardless but it HAS to take much more than Ramsbo and his 20 Predators burning a few stocks... heck Jon came back from Hardhome with a population of wildlings plus a slow giant and no one starved...

But what is done is done, i'll still support show Stannis even knowing he will die full of remorse and grief before he gets what he believes he wants... and i sure hope at least, that he charges against the enemy to "wash out the bad"

[olibar]

I'm thinking that the differences between show Stannis and book Stannis may be that D&D, knowing the end game, decided to soften the blow to the audience of Stannis killing his own daughter. I really believed up until the last moment that he wasn't going to actually do it, whereas my Unsullied wife wasn't surprised at all. I'm thinking that may also be why so many Stannis fans are in such an uproar about it, GRRM wanted them to feel that way.

[lostinwesteros]

Who said that Stannis will be the one to sacrifice Shireen in TWOW? My money's on

Mel, either because she thinks, due to the Pink Letter, that Stannis is dead/dying, or else because she finally realizes Stannis isn't Azor Ahai, and she sacrifices Shireen in an attempt to save Jon. Shireen is at the Wall with Mel and Selyse - Stannis is miles and miles away in such deep snow that it's hard for him to travel 12 feet, much less all the way back to the wall. Just what I think.

ETA: Sorry, I didn't answer what the thread addressed: No, he absolutely does not have my respect. It took quite a while for me to develop some respect for Stannis show-wise - it was only after he showed up at the Wall to save the day in the battle with the wildlings. (I was never a fan of his book-wise, but that's not at issue here). In fact, I think he's just condemned himself and is not long for the world of Westeros. Davos certainly isn't going to stand by him when he finds out what Stannis did.

[kissdbyfire]

I'm thinking that the differences between show Stannis and book Stannis may be that D&D, knowing the end game, decided to soften the blow to the audience of Stannis killing his own daughter. I really believed up until the last moment that he wasn't going to actually do it, whereas my Unsullied wife wasn't surprised at all. I'm thinking that may also be why so many Stannis fans are in such an uproar about it, GRRM wanted them to feel that way.

No. Just 'no'. They don't do stuff for the book fans, unless it's to piss every one off. Benioff said what he did and spoiled unpublished material in the process because he knew there'd be backlash, so he decided to hide behind Martin.

Show Stannis has nothing left to do but fail and die, regardless of the journey that awaits book Stannis before he gets there.

I for one hope he dies on Sunday. And Sansa, Davos and Loras.

[ummester]

ASoIaF doesn't have main characters, just POVs, which Martin changes, or adds to, as he sees fit. If Jon becomes an Other to fight Ramsay, we might see the battle from Ramsay's POV, even in book.

The position that the book has more grey, on one hand, and the show is wrong by humanizing Ramsay, on the other,making the show worse, is hypocritical and/or character biased. Humanizing Ramsay more than the book is presenting more grey, just not with a character you think deserves it. Other than your own opinion as a fan, what really gives you the right to judge which characters are deserving of humanizing and which characters are not? In a story without heroes (apart from show Tyrion, who has been presented as ridiculously heroic), we should not be looking for any character to be presented sympathetically.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

To be fair Shireen agreed to do anything to help... Not so sure she wanted to be turned into char though. They said though once Stannis commits he's all in. No take backs.

[kissdbyfire]

To be fair Shireen agreed to do anything to help... Not so sure she wanted to be turned into char though. They said though once Stannis commits he's all in. No take backs.

Yeah, no 'take backs', according to the Inside the Episode, once Stannis has made his mind he won't change it.

I do wonder why when Mel wanted to roast Shireen on ep 8 he told her to fuck off, and the next episode, there he is, changing his mind. :rolleyes:

[ummester]

I do wonder why when Mel wanted to roast Shireen on ep 8 he told her to fuck off, and the next episode, there he is, changing his mind. :rolleyes:

It was episode 7 and he said, in order:

Have you lost your mind?

There must be another way.

She's my daughter. Get out.

Then dramatic music plays and he looks serious, mulling the concept over. He doesn't outright reject Mel's idea, though he does act like he finds it reprehensible.

What is most interesting is Mel's response to Stannis saying there must be another way. She says:

You must become King before the Long Night begins, Only you can lead the living against the dead.

I think Stannis is going to become king. Stannis is likely the valonqar. The whole reason Dany and Bran (likely with Jon) are teaming up with 'monsters' in the plot (ie: dragons, CotF and probably White Walkers) seems to be lining up to defeat Stannis. I will not be surprised if we see the Boltons bow to Stannis and Stannis counts them among his allies. The Freys will bend the knee, of course, Walder always supports whoever is most powerful at a given point in time. Cersie probably won't but Jamie may bow to Stannis also.

[kissdbyfire]

It was episode 7 and he said, in order:

Have you lost your mind?

There must be another way.

She's my daughter. Get out.

0.

Then dramatic music plays and he looks serious, mulling the concept over. He doesn't outright reject Mel's idea, though he does act like he finds it reprehensible.

What is most interesting is Mel's response to Stannis saying there must be another way. She says:

You must become King before the Long Night begins, Only you can lead the living against the dead.

I think Stannis is going to become king. Stannis is likely the valonqar. The whole reason Dany and Bran (likely with Jon) are teaming up with 'monsters' in the plot (ie: dragons, CotF and probably White Walkers) is probably to defeat Stannis. I will not be surprised if we see the Boltons bow to Stannis and Stannis counts them among his allies. Cersie probably won't but Jamie may bow to Stannis also.

What are you talking about? Books or show? And why quote me? I don't understand what this has to do with my post. I was commenting on Benioff saying 'Stannis doesn't change his mind', and well, he does. Ok, he didn't tell the Black Dread to 'fuck off', that was hyperbole.

And since I'm here, replying already... That last paragraph... I have no words. :)