Does Stannis still have your respect?

[Talking Hodor]

I'm still good with book Stannis, show Stannis I'll just continue to be indifferent because he's a totally different character than in the books.

According to GRRM, book Stannis will be burning Shireen soon.

[HexMachina]

The choice was for thousands starving or one dying. Not easy, but correct in the context of this universe.

How about all those horses he has butchered for meat? Less horses to be fed, and a food source for his men, who would not starve for some time with this additional food

[SliverOfDiamond]

According to GRRM, book Stannis will be burning Shireen soon.

Yeah,yeah, this mythical book he's been writing for the last 100 years?

I hope Ramsey Bolton finds Stannis and flays him. If he does a Theon on him, even better.

Anyone who could even entertain the idea of standing there watching their daughter burning alive, fully conscious, deserves to die with the same amount of pain, and then burn in hell for all eternity. I hope the same thing for the Red Witch.

Actually I don't really have the words to express how much I hate Stannis right now, and D&D for doing this to a great story, and GRRM if he really is going to do the same thing in the books.

The shine has definitely gone off ASOIAF for me, there's nothing enjoyable or redeeming about anything that's going on right now. I think I'll hold off getting WoW if it comes out, until I know what it contains, and make a note to never get invested in book series that aren't complete.

*Goes back to Malazan Book of the Fallen*

[Chad Brick]

Absolutely he has my respect. He made a heroic decision that most people would have shied away from.

Stannis honestly and reasonably believes he is the bearer of Lightbringer and the second coming of Azor Ahai, destined to lead humanity in the fight against the Others. Whether he is right in this belief is most immaterial to the ethics of his choice, as long as his beliefs are reasonable. They are, as he has ample evidence that R'hllor is real and favors him. It is also a simple matter of fact that even in his secular element, he is by far the contender for the crown who is most willing and capable of addressing the Others and their zombie army. Thus, for him, failure is not an option, as all of humanity is at stake. His quest is not for the throne, though obviously it would be extremely useful to hold it in the battle against the others, as well something he rightfully believes is his by law and right.

Stannis sacrificed Shireen because he felt it was necessary in order to continue the only fight that matters. His willingness to go as far as cruelly sacrificing his own child shows his strength, not his weakness. Far too many people would have ran or delayed making such a choice until the zombie apocalypse was upon them and it was too late.

Of course, we readers know more than Stannis, and it is unlikely that he is actually the savior. His sacrifice will likely come to naught as a matter of good storytelling (or perhaps not, GRRM loves slapping around tropes), but the fact of the matter is that Stannis's decision, based on what he knows and reasonably believes, was not only morally justified but heroic.

[artihcus022]

First of all, all these people harping about "would you support Stannis" or "If Stannis does this..." and the like please stop reading ASOIAF.

These books (and the show at least in Seasons 1-3) are about complex characters making complex choices in a complex world with no clear right and wrong. This is a Secondary World where our moral certainties and values, our religious ideas and our 20th-21st Century Middle Class ideas don't really matter at all. The books are a deliberate challenge to our moral sensibilities by evoking a quasi-medieval feudal world where decisions have consequences.

Secondly, human sacrifice is not some religious concept that the books tackle, it is the fundamental theme of the books. That is to say if you want power are you prepared to trample on innocent powerless kids to do it.

1) Tywin Lannister ordered the deaths of Rhaegar's kids all for the patently selfish desire to curry favor in a rebellion that he did not risk anything at all in politicial, personal and military consequences. Now we don't consider Tywin killing Rhaegar's kids to be human sacrifice but essentially its the same, he killed two children for the sake of his own personal ambition and yet, the funny thing is, you will have the same fans who hate Stannis saying that Tywin was the master of the game, Tywin was brilliant and so on. The show likewise sentimentalizes Tywin excessively.

2) Then Jaime Lannister tried to kill Bran Stark and ended up crippling him. His reason was that it was either Bran, Tommen or Myrcella. Ned Stark was the moral man who could never tolerate killing kids for any power grab and he ended up being killed by the boy-king he had been trying to spare. We forgive Jaime and we think Ned Stark is an idiot but if so what does that mean? That we are okay if people kill children for the right reasons? Likewise Robb Stark executed Rickard Karstark for killing those Lannister hostages even when it cost him his manpower. We call Robb Stark an idiot too.

3) Then Theon Greyjoy murdered two totally innocent miller's boys for absolutely no reason because he was an evil coward. And yet one and a half seasons' worth of torture we are kind of forgiving of Theon for some reason, why?

So tell me, in a show (and the books) which deals with the deaths of children, what does it say about the middle-class hypocrisy that people can't handle Stannis in a situation called the Cold Equation (look it up online, its a science-fiction story), where either way Shireen would die and Melisandre has magical powers and represents the only real choice he has in that.

[Follmann]

I was going to retire, but this made me crack up so hard, Yep, Slaver's Bay, that place where Daenerys stormed in, freed the slaves and turned everything into magical progressive Targaryen fantasy land where Dragon's munch on free range sheep (no growth hormones, raised in humane circumstances and certified Little Ghiscari Shepherd Girl Free), war and poverty have been abolished, a strong and stable political system has been left in her wake that will stand the test of time, disease is unheard of and people are not trying to sell themselves into slavery to escape the living hell their lives have become.

Yep, that Slaver's Bay ;)

Exactly. How I see Dany: http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMHzJj8CAAAIiLL.png:large

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Book and Show Stannis will both do whatever they think it takes to win. I have no doubt that Show!Stannis loved Shireen...but he burnt her anyway...I'm not so sure Book!Stannis loves anyone.

"For the night is dark and full of terrible fathers."

[Follmann]

Book and Show Stannis will both do whatever they think it takes to win. I have no doubt that Show!Stannis loved Shireen...but he burnt her anyway...I'm not so sure Book!Stannis loves anyone.

"For the night is dark and full of terrible fathers."

We've come to a situation where Roose Bolton is the best father in Westeros.

[RoamingRonin]

Actually by anyone's metrics he's had a stellar career. Held Storm's End for a year and secured his brother's victory by dividing Royal forces. Built a fleet from scratch and stormed Dragonstone. Destroyed the best fleet of the best sailors in all Westeros (and perhaps the world) after they'd been winning left and right. He managed to use force multiplying magic to assassinate his idiot brother (rightly I might add, given Renly had no qualms about killing him come sunrise and made sport of what to do with his body), then used it again to secure Storm's End and a new base of operations on the continent, both at the cost of not a single soldier. He then took in his brother's wayward bannermen, integrated them into a fleet composed of Royal Navy vessels, sellsails and pirates, brought them to the walls of kings landing. Even with wildfire decimating his vanguard and his plan shot to hell, he managed to ferry troops in a concerted attack that had the Great God GRRM not intervened on behalf of the Lannisters, he would have won.

No one doubts his military capabilities. His victory over Vication and the iron fleet was amazing. No arguments there. As for the rest: you're being woefully obtuse and deliberately ignoring some key facts just to whitewash Stannis and make him out to be better than what he is. Typical Stannis fan behavior: ignore all his failures and faults while praising accomplishments he has yet to accomplish.

Now, Renly had no beef with Stannis and was content to let him linger on Dragonstone. Stannis brought that fight to him after sitting on his butt for months and ignoring the troubles in King's Landing. He decides to fight Renly over a prophecy that is wrong. Renly never wanted to kill Stannis and your wrong: he told his men not to disrespect Stannis' body. He kills Ser Cortney Penrose to secure Edric and keeps the boy as a pawn for his plans. Use him to reveal Cersei's illegitimate children. Use his blood. Maybe even to burn him alive for a spell that won't even work for him because he is not Azor Ahai.

Funny how you left all that out.

And yeah, blame Martin because Stannis failed. :lol:

After this defeat---which again was nearly a stunning victory in face of crazy odds---he pulled his shit together when Davos told him about the Wildling invasion, took a battered army of only 1500 men, inspiring them to cross 2,000+ miles of ocean and 500 miles of tundra to defeat an army twenty times their size. Having smashed the wildlings and saved the Wall, he then managed to make a settlement allowing the wildlings to pass through and supply manpower for the Nights Watch. He then, contrary to his own anti-social disposition, managed to win over several major Northern chiefs one after another, enough so that his army swelled by 3000 more men and he retook Deepwood Motte with ease, winning over those Northern lords you said don't want him. He sent Davos to do his diplomatic work in the east while he struck out for Winterfell at the urging of the Northerners, but also because it was the right thing to do given the groundswell of support and the keeping of "Arya" there.

Props to Davos and Jon for giving good council. Else Stannis would be royally screwed. And again you failed to mention how he bullied the Night's Watch into giving him supplies and castles. How he even threatened to attack them if he had to. How he forced the wildlings to accept his red god even though he, according to most of his fans, doesn't believe in R'hllor himself. How's that for hypocrisy?

He managed to march almost all the way there, even hampered by some insane northern blizzard, and even with all the starvation of his army, the general hopelessness of the situation, he pulls his shit together, uses good intelligence to find traitors in his midst, secures the Iron Banks loans (and no, they don't give two shits about Daenerys, and wisely given that Daenerys's track record at running a city state---let alone a kingdom the size of South America---is spotty at best. She's also not heading to Westeros. She's got things to do, sellswords to impress with one breasted dresses. You know, stuff ;) ) and manages to turn the icy terrain from a disadvantage to a tactical trump card. He's also about to get the support of Wyman Manderly and every other Northern house once the Boltons are bloodied enough for them to make their move. They want a Stark, they don't care if he's not King Stark, just that he's Lord Stark. And Stannis's man will ensure that happens. Together they're a dream team. They're Robert and Ned minus the whoring and poor decision making.

The iron bank is concerned with Westeros because thanks to Cersei, they aren't getting their money back. Thanks to Robb, Stannis and the Lannisters, the whole place is a bloody mess. What kind of man threatens to kill his best friend and best councilor every time they have a conversation? Truly, Stannis is the king Westeros deserves but not the one it needs right now.

As for Dany, she does have a lot on her plate. Slaves to free, lies to slay. ;)

Anyways, you are so wrong it hurts. As for no one liking him :rofl: :rofl: Two ROFL emoticons for you.

No one likes Stannis. This is a fact every character can agree on.

I was going to retire, but this made me crack up so hard, Yep, Slaver's Bay, that place where Daenerys stormed in, freed the slaves and turned everything into magical progressive Targaryen fantasy land where Dragon's munch on free range sheep (no growth hormones, raised in humane circumstances and certified Little Ghiscari Shepherd Girl Free), war and poverty have been abolished, a strong and stable political system has been left in her wake that will stand the test of time, disease is unheard of and people are not trying to sell themselves into slavery to escape the living hell their lives have become.

Yep, that Slaver's Bay ;)

Westeros. The magical kingdom where the King in the North successfully avenged his father and rescued his sister! Where King Stannis and his brother Prince Renly defeated the Lannisters and Stannis claimed the throne and now rules wisely and justly!

Face it: everyone sucks everywhere. Westeros is hell. Slaver's Bay is hell. Thanks to Stannis killing Renly and failing on the Blackwater, the kingdom is in ruins. He was a major factor in helping the Lannisters keep their hold on the throne. Robb also played his part but Stannis, as a member of the royal family, should have done more to keep House Baratheon in power. He didn't. The Baratheon dynasty will go down in history as a failure.

[draevan13]

I don't like any of the current claimants to the Throne and prefer the Night's Watch over any of them, but Stannis has my respect for being the only claimant to actually defend the realm when it was threatened. Although burning his daughter made me hate him, regardless. If he's willing to kill his daughter, he won't draw the line anywhere.

[Follmann]

I don't like any of the current claimants to the Throne and prefer the Night's Watch over any of them, but Stannis has my respect. Although burning his daughter made me hate him, regardless. If he's willing to kill his daughter, he won't draw the line anywhere.

And the Night's Watch, while awesome in concept, is a shadow of its former self, manned mainly by murderers and rapists. Goddamn George, we're supossed to root for the Others, aren't we?

[draevan13]

And the Night's Watch, while awesome in concept, is a shadow of its former self, manned mainly by murderers and rapists. Goddamn George, we're supossed to root for the Others, aren't we?

That's what I like about ASOIAF, there's no paragon of good and justice and kittens and happiness to root for. Everyone's bad in some way. Some more than others :P

[Daske]

First of all, all these people harping about "would you support Stannis" or "If Stannis does this..." and the like please stop reading ASOIAF.

These books (and the show at least in Seasons 1-3) are about complex characters making complex choices in a complex world with no clear right and wrong. This is a Secondary World where our moral certainties and values, our religious ideas and our 20th-21st Century Middle Class ideas don't really matter at all. The books are a deliberate challenge to our moral sensibilities by evoking a quasi-medieval feudal world where decisions have consequences.

Secondly, human sacrifice is not some religious concept that the books tackle, it is the fundamental theme of the books. That is to say if you want power are you prepared to trample on innocent powerless kids to do it.

1) Tywin Lannister ordered the deaths of Rhaegar's kids all for the patently selfish desire to curry favor in a rebellion that he did not risk anything at all in politicial, personal and military consequences. Now we don't consider Tywin killing Rhaegar's kids to be human sacrifice but essentially its the same, he killed two children for the sake of his own personal ambition and yet, the funny thing is, you will have the same fans who hate Stannis saying that Tywin was the master of the game, Tywin was brilliant and so on. The show likewise sentimentalizes Tywin excessively.

2) Then Jaime Lannister tried to kill Bran Stark and ended up crippling him. His reason was that it was either Bran, Tommen or Myrcella. Ned Stark was the moral man who could never tolerate killing kids for any power grab and he ended up being killed by the boy-king he had been trying to spare. We forgive Jaime and we think Ned Stark is an idiot but if so what does that mean? That we are okay if people kill children for the right reasons? Likewise Robb Stark executed Rickard Karstark for killing those Lannister hostages even when it cost him his manpower. We call Robb Stark an idiot too.

3) Then Theon Greyjoy murdered two totally innocent miller's boys for absolutely no reason because he was an evil coward. And yet one and a half seasons' worth of torture we are kind of forgiving of Theon for some reason, why?

So tell me, in a show (and the books) which deals with the deaths of children, what does it say about the middle-class hypocrisy that people can't handle Stannis in a situation called the Cold Equation (look it up online, its a science-fiction story), where either way Shireen would die and Melisandre has magical powers and represents the only real choice he has in that.

I have no issue with the scene it's just a story. And I'm in the minority of liking what they have done with Stannis - I'm interested in his character more now than ever.

But it's not middle-class hypocrisy to recoil against this loss of humanity (as well as the physical burning). Sacrifice one to possibly save everyone. Spock might do it. Kirk wouldn't.

There is a place for them both. But as an audience we are obviously meant to see things from Kirk's perspective more than Spock's because that's just how people are.

[RoamingRonin]

And the Night's Watch, while awesome in concept, is a shadow of its former self, manned mainly by murderers and rapists. Goddamn George, we're supossed to root for the Others, aren't we?

Pretty much. It's an incredibly cynical and dark world but the story is good so :dunno:. You just kind of wonder how anything ever got done with everyone being evil all the time.

[The Lizard King]

That's what I like about ASOIAF, there's no paragon of good and justice and kittens and happiness to root for. Everyone's bad in some way. Some more than others :P

Ned Stark

Bran Stark

Rickon Stark

Sansa Stark

Jon Snow

[ummester]

Ned Stark

Bran Stark

Rickon Stark

Sansa Stark

Jon Snow

Ned was so honorable it made him inflexible and ultimately bad for his children.

Bran looks like he is on the path to being one of the most dangerous and anti human characters in the saga.

Rickon is so far out of the picture and so young it's hard to judge.

Sansa is so passive that she keeps casting herself as a victim.

Jon, yea, Jon seems like he is trying to be a good guy. Not as inflexible as Ned, not as passive as Sansa, and not been led totally up the garden path like Bran... but wait, oh that's right

- he's dead!

[Cas Stark]

Ned Stark

Bran Stark

Rickon Stark

Sansa Stark Arya Stark

Jon Snow

[The Lizard King]

http://i.imgur.com/uHWvqCs.jpg

[Mish Windage]

If he pulled an Aemon for his Egg yeah I would've. But he didn't. Acted all selfish middle child. Pulling the martyr phrases about holding against a siege. I like his humor.

[artihcus022]

There is a place for them both. But as an audience we are obviously meant to see things from Kirk's perspective more than Spock's because that's just how people are.

Well Game of Thrones isn't Star Trek and ASOIAF isn't Game of Thrones. Here there's not a great deal of difference between the Kirks and the Spocks. The Kirks of the world can find it in themselves to be bad when it suits them. Like Jaime Lannister isn't Spock (he went Kirk on Aerys), but he still wanted to kill Bran. That's why he threw him off that tower. Theon Greyjoy damn sure isn't Spock either.

So please adjust your moral lenses.