Does Stannis still have your respect?

[RoamingRonin]

That's not true of life and history. Many great artists and I mean Ned Stark is still a patriarchal chauvinist. He ultimately sees Arya and Sansa as daughters to be married off to secure good alliances. In the show, you have that line where Ned tells Arya that when she grows up she'll be married off too, and she says that's not me. So the point is you can be a patriarchal chauvinist and a loving father and a decent person but its not there universally in the show and I think this is the nature of TV, its easy to fall back on lazy tricks and lose sight of what you are supposed to do in a medium as indefinite and unfixed as that.

Yet he allows her to train with Syrio and to keep her sword. I'm pretty sure if Arya ultimately did not want to get married, Ned would accept her decision.

[Borodin]

I can't really say whether Stannis still has my respect because at this point, the show is so inconsistent that my suspension of disbelief is broken. Obviously what Satannis did was irredeemable, but it's also so illogical and nonsensical a development that I cannot treat is as an action by a fictional character. I cannot divorce it from the stupidity of the writers.

I really wish they had of made him a coherent character so that I could make a decision either way.

[artihcus022]

Yet he allows her to train with Syrio and to keep her sword. I'm pretty sure if Arya ultimately did not want to get married, Ned would accept her decision.

Are you that naive? In the books, Ned clearly treats Arya's swordplay as a hobby and something to make her happy. He sees it as a phase and not something to get worked up about. There is no way Ned would allow Arya to go full Brienne. That doesn't mean he doesn't love her but he knows the world he lives in and the duties of a Lord and all that comes with being a daughter of the Warden of the North.

I like Ned Stark a lot but I have no interest in making him my fantasy version of a "good father".

[RoamingRonin]

Are you that naive? In the books, Ned clearly treats Arya's swordplay as a hobby and something to make her happy. He sees it as a phase and not something to get worked up about. There is no way Ned would allow Arya to go full Brienne. That doesn't mean he doesn't love her but he knows the world he lives in and the duties of a Lord and all that comes with being a daughter of the Warden of the North.

I like Ned Stark a lot but I have no interest in making him my fantasy version of a "good father".

No. I'm just not inclined to scream "patriarchy!" at everything. Ned seems to be a reasonable dad. He might not support her going "full Brienne" but he's not going to force her to do his bidding. If he was as rigid as you seem to believe, I doubt he would let her train with Syrio at all. He would have snapped Needle over his knee when he found it. When she says, "That's not me," he doesn't force the issue. Why would he encourage behavior, knowing Arya is a willful child, that he would encourage even more willful behavior in the future?

[artihcus022]

No. I'm just not inclined to scream "patriarchy!" at everything. Ned seems to be a reasonable dad. He might not support her going "full Brienne" but he's not going to force her to do his bidding. If he was as rigid as you seem to believe, I doubt he would let her train with Syrio at all. He would have snapped Needle over his knee when he found it. When she says, "That's not me," he doesn't force the issue. Why would he encourage behavior, knowing Arya is a willful child, that he would encourage even more willful behavior in the future?

Its the same reason why parents indulge their kids in their fancies in ballet dancing and the like but still insist they finish law. They want to be good parents but in the end they will want stability and good futures for their children. For Ned Stark, good future for Arya is marriage to good house and mother to children. Patriarchy doesn't work in the stereotypical fashion that you paint at, "breaking Needle" like Ned was Randyll Tarly or something.

You can be a good father and a nice man and still be essentially patriarchal in outlook. I have no idea why this is shocking and brand new information.

Ned Stark is a traditional dude in a traditional culture. He's not Doran Martell, he's not Selwyn Tarth, he's not even Balon Greyjoy who wanted to make Asha Greyjoy his heir (the only nice thing he ever did for anyone).

[Bronn Urgandy]

Book Stannis, yeah sure, the same way I respect all people that are highly competent, driven, and probably decent at the end of the day, see any number of historical war generals who've acted like bastards from time to time, even if I don't necessarily like him, since we don't share many common traits and frankly, he'd get on my nerves. Besides, he took the mantle of "hero of humanity" despite his misgivings and its not like anybody else has put themselves forward as a decent candidate... threat beyond the Wall guys?... No, not interested? Fine, hating him for the AA shit is all well and good, but what's the guy supposed to do? Fuck all? Jesus H. Christ! I'd lose respect for him if he crosses this line as his show counterpart did, (I say counterpart, show Stannis is the guy you get when you remove pretty much everything except perhaps his drooling base element, which would turn even the best of us into total animals) which I am willing to accept as an outside chance at this point, but up to and especially in TWOW sample chapter, he's pretty fuckin' badass and is just about on the "right" side.

Show Stannis, I just, well, what?

[Two and a Halfhand]

Yes,very much.

He's weaker in the TV version,and much more pragmatic.His Book counterpart however is awesome.

I don't care if the "Mannis hype" dies,i liked Stannis before that started and will continue to do so.

[coatzin]

till the bitter end... and boy it will be bitter!

[RoamingRonin]

Fine, hating him for the AA shit is all well and good, but what's the guy supposed to do? Fuck all? Jesus H. Christ!

"I am not this Azor Ahai but I will help you find the right person and lend them my power, if possible. If not, I will do what I can to fight the darkness but I will not usurp this the title from another. How can I fight pretenders and be one myself?"

Bloop.

"Hero of humanity" ... Ah, yes, where would Westeros be without Stannis?

[artihcus022]

"Hero of humanity" ... Ah, yes, where would Westeros be without Stannis?

Ask the Night's Watch that question? Or ask the people who were with Stannis in the Siege of Storm's End, or Victarion Greyjoy who lost to Stannis off Fair Isle.

[Dagon]

I don't have faith in any of the show characters except Sean Bean.

[RoamingRonin]

Ask the Night's Watch that question? Or ask the people who were with Stannis in the Siege of Storm's End, or Victarion Greyjoy who lost to Stannis off Fair Isle.

Those were battles. The fate of the world was not at stake. But if I had to ask the Night's Watch how they felt, I think they would grudingly give him thanks. After he fought, he settled down and started pissing everyone off. Hopefully, we will see Stanis engage "the foe he was born to fight" and we will see how "Lghtbringer" fairs against the ice blades of the Others.

About as well as a flashlight in a lightsaber duel, no doubt.

[Mish Windage]

Go home Stannis! Nobody likes you!

[Bronn Urgandy]

"I am not this Azor Ahai but I will help you find the right person and lend them my power, if possible. If not, I will do what I can to fight the darkness but I will not usurp this the title from another. How can I fight pretenders and be one myself?"

Bloop.

"Hero of humanity" ... Ah, yes, where would Westeros be without Stannis?

How does he know he's a pretender to that particular title? Especially when a magical fire witch with future telling abilities and the ability to survive poison tells you you are, you'd just instantly think "oho it can't be me, you must be talking about Ned Starks bastard!" you're asking a bit much of him, I think. He's not the one writing the book.

Yes, "Hero of Humanity", thank you for the snark, but its basically what Azor Ahai is proclaimed to be in legend and what he is attempting to live up to, yes yes Westeros is worse off, cruel, bitter irony, etc. I hope you don't think I am fanboying and saying he's wonderful, because that really makes me tired on here. But it has to be said that despite all the wars and infighting and chaos that he obviously played his part in, he did turn up when needed and is taking steps to repair the damage.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Those were battles. The fate of the world was not at stake. But if I had to ask the Night's Watch how they felt, I think they would grudingly give him thanks. After he fought, he settled down and started pissing everyone off.

Ehh, Nights Watch needed shaking up. White Walkers and Wildlings on their doorstep and they've got a ridiculous amount of unmanned castles that he was willing to garrison and were blathering on about it sometimes taking years to choose a Lord Commander, the guy might have a stick up his arse but the Nights Watch really needed his boot up theirs.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Oh, and as far as show Stannis goes, bollocks to Brienne avenging Renly, Renly was fair game, more-so in the show, and I couldn't care less if Stannis killed him with steel, shadowbaby or by personally shitting on an arrow, shooting him with it and waiting for the infection to take hold.

I hope Davos Seaworth stabs him clean in the face.

[RoamingRonin]

How does he know he's a pretender to that particular title? Especially when a magical fire witch with future telling abilities and the ability to survive poison tells you you are, you'd just instantly think "oho it can't be me, you must be talking about Ned Starks bastard!" you're asking a bit much of him, I think. He's not the one writing the book.

I thought you were of the group that thinks Stannis is lying about his faith in AA and R'hllor and using Mel for his own ends. My bad.

(That's a good post for anyone that does.)

Yes, "Hero of Humanity", thank you for the snark, but its basically what Azor Ahai is proclaimed to be in legend and what he is attempting to live up to, yes yes Westeros is worse off, cruel, bitter irony, etc. I hope you don't think I am fanboying and saying he's wonderful, because that really makes me tired on here.

Not fanboying but I do think you're being a bit disinenguous. It's extremely hard to compliment Stannis because whenever he does good - say, for example, smashing Mance at the Wall - he does something backwards and annoying - like threatening to attack the Wall for castles, making the wildlings burn their gods and accept his or die, being a prick to Jon and the NW bros at every turn. It's baffling. It's like hey, man, you did some good, let me like you.

So when you read a Stannis fan's post it's like "...saved the Wall... Marching to Boltons... Defeated Renly..." It's a tad annoying. Strip it down like that, dude sounds pretty awesome. But imagine if I listed Dany's accomplishments and heroic motives and all the great stuff she might do but not everything else.

[RoamingRonin]

Ehh, Nights Watch needed shaking up. White Walkers and Wildlings on their doorstep and they've got a ridiculous amount of unmanned castles that he was willing to garrison and were blathering on about it sometimes taking years to choose a Lord Commander, the guy might have a stick up his arse but the Nights Watch really needed his boot up theirs.

The NW had just enured several major events. The Fist, the Mutiny, and Mance's attack. While all that was going on Stannis sat on Dragonstone ignoring their plea for help. When he finally shows up, he does his part and that's great, but Stannis now sees he has subjects to rule over and bully. As soon as he gains power, he becomes even more unbearable than he already is. He didnt need a Lord Commander at that exact moment. Imagine if his meddling put Janos Slynt in power?

I don't like using the term "whitewash" this post was tempting. Come on. Thank the 7 for Davos.

[Lord Roivas]

They did do a good job making show Stannis rather unfavorable to viewers. I mean he's practically worse than the Boltons as this point, I don't think Stannis haters would put book Stannis as worse than Bolton.

I respect Stannis in an unusual way, I wouldn't want to grab a drink with him but I can respect him as someone who's overall pretty honest and does actually intend to do the right thing, even if it gets convoluted as life tends to do. I don't think he's someone would could be bribed or would allow the stupid antics that led to Robert's administrations slow decline to instability and bankruptcy.

Perhaps It's just me but I've always looked as Stannis' overall arc as him starting out angry and thinking that he's so righteous, worthy, and just while being rather entitled overall and blind to his faults. Then gradually shifting after his mistakes to someone who is actually worthy of others respect and loyalty. I think he knows he'll never be liked on a personal level but he's going to work his damnedest to be respected and do right by others. I thought this was metaphorically presented by his shift from Melisandre as his main influence to gradually believing and letting Davos and Jon become his main allies.

[cthulhu]

I can't really say whether Stannis still has my respect because at this point, the show is so inconsistent that my suspension of disbelief is broken. Obviously what Satannis did was irredeemable, but it's also so illogical and nonsensical a development that I cannot treat is as an action by a fictional character. I cannot divorce it from the stupidity of the writers.

^agree completly.

Show Stannis is an incoherent mess of a character.