Does Stannis still have your respect?

[Tyu-Chuck]

Those who thinks he is a religious fanatic the show made him, just remember this:

"I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men."

“If you do not believe in gods-”

“Why trouble with this new one?” Stannis broke in. “I have asked myself as well. I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power.”

- Stannis and Davos, A Clash of Kings, Davos I.

[artihcus022]

Those who thinks he is a religious fanatic the show made him, just remember this:

"I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men."

“If you do not believe in gods-”

“Why trouble with this new one?” Stannis broke in. “I have asked myself as well. I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power.”

- Stannis and Davos, A Clash of Kings, Davos I.

He's not even a religious fanatic on the show. Davos is clearly not a Rhillor believer for example. To him Melisandre's magic is what proves her faith, nothing about the faith in itself. And as I said, magic is not and cannot be considered the same as religion. Especially functional magic that has been observed and confirmed by a third party, Davos seeing Melisandre's shadow baby and the like.

The fact is that unlike every other character in the show, the showrunners and fans have decided to present Stannis in a different light and context from that which the show has created.

[TheKitttenGuard]

He's not even a religious fanatic on the show. Davos is clearly not a Rhillor believer for example. To him Melisandre's magic is what proves her faith, nothing about the faith in itself. And as I said, magic is not and cannot be considered the same as religion. Especially functional magic that has been observed and confirmed by a third party, Davos seeing Melisandre's shadow baby and the like.

The fact is that unlike every other character in the show, the showrunners and fans have decided to present Stannis in a different light and context from that which the show has created.

He is a true believer on the show. Him still having Davos does give him some contradiction. He is far less tolerant of others in not their beliefs as when he burned Axel Florent in the show.

Burning Shireen now put him as a fanatic but he is more of a believer than his book counterpart has been.

[Tyu-Chuck]

He's not even a religious fanatic on the show. Davos is clearly not a Rhillor believer for example. To him Melisandre's magic is what proves her faith, nothing about the faith in itself. And as I said, magic is not and cannot be considered the same as religion. Especially functional magic that has been observed and confirmed by a third party, Davos seeing Melisandre's shadow baby and the like.

The fact is that unlike every other character in the show, the showrunners and fans have decided to present Stannis in a different light and context from that which the show has created.

I agree with you wen you say that magic isn't the same that religion..... in the books he uses Mel's magic but not personally accepts the religion.... in the show he actually transformed in a religious fanatic that burns people for not accepting R'hllor

in the famous "inside the episode" were D&D say that Shireen's sacrifice was GRRM's ideia, they also say that we see Stannis by the first time burning people on the beaches of Dragonstone and he have been burning unbelievers ever since.... but in fact he was burning only wooden statues... and on the books he only burned people who commit some kind of crime

for example: Lord Florent in the show was sacrificed because he refused to accept R'hllor and in the books because he tried to negotiate a peace with the Lannisters, acting without Stannis' consent, and giving Shireen as a hostage, the fact that he was an unbeliever was just irrelevant.....

there wasn't any burning solely in the name of religion ordered by Stannis on the books, it was just an execution choice, just like hanging or beheading...... but on the show, every single burning was because of religion

EDIT: some of the executions ended been used also in religion practices, but the reason for the act was the crime and not the religion

[RoamingRonin]

there wasn't any burning solely in the name of religion ordered by Stannis on the books, it was just an execution choice, just like hanging or beheading...... but on the show, every single burning was because of religion

Not to split hairs but Mance was not burned because of his religion. He was burned because he deserted the Night's Watch. He was a traitor and rebel king. I have one friend (a Stannis fan) that literally stopped watching the show because of that scene.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

"Hate the game, not the player."

[Visenya Stark]

in the famous "inside the episode" were D&D say that Shireen's sacrifice was GRRM's ideia, they also say that we see Stannis by the first time burning people on the beaches of Dragonstone and he have been burning unbelievers ever since.... but in fact he was burning only wooden statues...

D&D can't even keep their facts straight. No wonder there are so many plotholes in the show. :lmao:

[Tyu-Chuck]

Not to split hairs but Mance was not burned because of his religion. He was burned because he deserted the Night's Watch. He was a traitor and rebel king. I have one friend (a Stannis fan) that literally stopped watching the show because of that scene.

But this was in fact right.... he had to be executed.... he was a deserter its simple, I agree with you..... I was talking about the other burnings.... I didn't even consider explain Mance's case because its obvious.... Ned Stark executed a man for the same reason

[Tyu-Chuck]

I stopped watching just after Shireen's burning.... not because I don't believe its possible for Stannis to do it.... I think its very unlikely, but not impossible.... I just didn't see how it makes any sense in the way D&D placed the sacrifice....

[ummester]

He's not even a religious fanatic on the show. Davos is clearly not a Rhillor believer for example. To him Melisandre's magic is what proves her faith, nothing about the faith in itself. And as I said, magic is not and cannot be considered the same as religion. Especially functional magic that has been observed and confirmed by a third party, Davos seeing Melisandre's shadow baby and the like.

The fact is that unlike every other character in the show, the showrunners and fans have decided to present Stannis in a different light and context from that which the show has created.

But it is an interesting area of separation.

Mel can do magic because she has faith, or so she believes. Perhaps she could do magic whether she believed in R'hllor or not? We just don't know? because Mel has faith and she does the magic, faith seems like a requirement for Mel's magic.

Stannis doesn't have faith - he just views Mel's magic as a tangible thing. From Stannis POV it's the same as the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy logic - God proves his existence, therefore faith is not required for God's existence, therefore how can God exist in our current understanding of what god is? If God is real, God is not God. Following through with Mel, if her magic is real, is it still magic?

What Mel is doing with Stannis could be the same as showing a computer to a caveman and making the caveman pragmatically view the computer in awe, accept Mel has faith, so it seems she doesn't understand her computer.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

George has not written the scene yet. That means it is happening in late AWOW or ADOS.

It would be a completely different scenario. As linda said, something as big as the wall falling since the point of the story when it will happen, and an uttery conclussion that D&D just raped the character.

The problem is not the burning. Is doing it to make weather change at the first sight of a problem.

"If I start to comment on what might or might not happen in scenes that I have not written yet, I will be spoiling my own books".

As joncon said, the guy is pissed

http://uproxx.com/tv/2015/06/george-rr-martin-showrunner-war/3/

[artihcus022]

But it is an interesting area of separation.

Mel can do magic because she has faith, or so she believes. Perhaps she could do magic whether she believed in R'hllor or not? We just don't know? because Mel has faith and she does the magic, faith seems like a requirement for Mel's magic.

But not all R'hillor converts have magical capacities. None of the Queen's Men, Selyse have magical abilities either. Among the Brotherhood without Banners, Thoros of Myr has converted the likes of Gendry and others (Gendry has become a religious fanatic by the way when we last saw him...but on the show he's a victim of Evil Witch and not a poor man who can think and decide for himself).

And Thoros of Myr on both show and books is not a very good priest yet he has magical powers. So faith or religious devotion has nothing to do with magic at all, definitely not in the books.

The books has a whole is about magic coming at a price. George Martin wanted to make magic, dark, forbidding, mysterious and uncontrollable and magical solutions to problems comes at a price. The disturbing thing is not that the magic is dark or evil, the scary part is that it works.

[Tyu-Chuck]

But not all R'hillor converts have magical capacities. None of the Queen's Men, Selyse have magical abilities either. Among the Brotherhood without Banners, Thoros of Myr has converted the likes of Gendry and others (Gendry has become a religious fanatic by the way when we last saw him...but on the show he's a victim of Evil Witch and not a poor man who can think and decide for himself).

And Thoros of Myr on both show and books is not a very good priest yet he has magical powers. So faith or religious devotion has nothing to do with magic at all, definitely not in the books.

The books has a whole is about magic coming at a price. George Martin wanted to make magic, dark, forbidding, mysterious and uncontrollable and magical solutions to problems comes at a price. The disturbing thing is not that the magic is dark or evil, the scary part is that it works.

It takes some kind of training.... Mel trained Stannis to have visions on the fire.... but to fully understand this visions requires more than just training.... even Mel, a fully trained priestess of R'hllor doesn't compreend her vision completly....

EDIT: they discuss this somewhere in A Storm of Swords... I need to check it to quote.... but I'm sure they discuss it

[ummester]

But not all R'hillor converts have magical capacities. None of the Queen's Men, Selyse have magical abilities either. Among the Brotherhood without Banners, Thoros of Myr has converted the likes of Gendry and others (Gendry has become a religious fanatic by the way when we last saw him...but on the show he's a victim of Evil Witch and not a poor man who can think and decide for himself).

And Thoros of Myr on both show and books is not a very good priest yet he has magical powers. So faith or religious devotion has nothing to do with magic at all, definitely not in the books.

The books has a whole is about magic coming at a price. George Martin wanted to make magic, dark, forbidding, mysterious and uncontrollable and magical solutions to problems comes at a price. The disturbing thing is not that the magic is dark or evil, the scary part is that it works.

I never said faith automatically equates to being able to do magic, only that, as Mel has faith, it is impossible to prove, in ASoIaF, whether magic can occur without faith and all evidence suggests exactly the opposite.

Thoros does magic and Thoros also has faith. Bran does magic and Bran has faith in the stuff Jojen told him. Dany made dragons out of stone eggs and Dany had faith when she walked into the fire (kind of an emo, self loathing faith, going by the books - but it was still faith). Every character that does magic has faith in the idea of something intangible, or non corporeal.

No pragmatic character does magic. Tyrion can't do magic. Stannis can't do magic. Tywin couldn't do magic. Jamie and Bronn can't do magic. Little Finger can't do magic. And so on.

Faith is linked to magic, very strongly, it's just that the faith can be in different things - either Old Gods or R'hllor. Having faith in the 7 doesn't seem to help with magic at all.

Also, Mel is different. She is a priestess and a shadowbinder. I believe shadowbinders are possessed, so they can do magic because of the demons living inside of them.

But all of this is besides the point of my post :) The point was, if you need faith to make something real, once it is real, shouldn't that negate the necessity for the faith? If I have faith that I can move a pencil with my mind and I actually do it, I no longer need faith, do I, as moving pencils with my mind has become a tangible and real world phenomenon. The logic gap isn't that characters in ASoIaF require faith to make something magical happen, just that, if they are smart enough to question, why do they still require faith after it has happened?

[Darkbringer]

I never said faith automatically equates to being able to do magic, only that, as Mel has faith, it is impossible to prove, in ASoIaF, whether magic can occur without faith and all evidence suggests exactly the opposite.

Thoros does magic and Thoros also has faith. Bran does magic and Bran has faith in the stuff Jojen told him. Dany made dragons out of stone eggs and Dany had faith when she walked into the fire (kind of an emo, self loathing faith, going by the books - but it was still faith). Every character that does magic has faith in the idea of something intangible, or non corporeal.

No pragmatic character does magic. Tyrion can't do magic. Stannis can't do magic. Tywin couldn't do magic. Jamie and Bronn can't do magic. Little Finger can't do magic. And so on.

Faith is linked to magic, very strongly, it's just that the faith can be in different things - either Old Gods or R'hllor. Having faith in the 7 doesn't seem to help with magic at all.

Also, Mel is different. She is a priestess and a shadowbinder. I believe shadowbinders are possessed, so they can do magic because of the demons living inside of them.

But all of this is besides the point of my post :) The point was, if you need faith to make something real, once it is real, shouldn't that negate the necessity for the faith? If I have faith that I can move a pencil with my mind and I actually do it, I no longer need faith, do I, as moving pencils with my mind has become a tangible and real world phenomenon. The logic gap isn't that characters in ASoIaF require faith to make something magical happen, just that, if they are smart enough to question, why do they still require faith after it has happened?

I would argue that, in the books, the Elder Brother has supernatural healing abilities, especially if the Gravedigger theory is true.

[TheReal_Rebel]

But not all R'hillor converts have magical capacities. None of the Queen's Men, Selyse have magical abilities either. Among the Brotherhood without Banners, Thoros of Myr has converted the likes of Gendry and others (Gendry has become a religious fanatic by the way when we last saw him...but on the show he's a victim of Evil Witch and not a poor man who can think and decide for himself).

And Thoros of Myr on both show and books is not a very good priest yet he has magical powers. So faith or religious devotion has nothing to do with magic at all, definitely not in the books.

The books has a whole is about magic coming at a price. George Martin wanted to make magic, dark, forbidding, mysterious and uncontrollable and magical solutions to problems comes at a price. The disturbing thing is not that the magic is dark or evil, the scary part is that it works.

If it works and is repeatable it's not magic it's Science. And all the "dark" aspects of Magic exist in Science. Science has a price, as well. Everything exists within the context of understanding nature.

That the Red God priests can do certain things and can teach it to others makes them more like techs who are not clear about how the science works but know what to say and do to try to make it work and know enough about how it ought to work.

If it doesn't they chalk it up to the Red a God not wanting it to work or they are doing something wrong not they don't have enough knowledge.

Mel admits to herself that interpretating is an art. She admits priests often see what they want but doesn't apply this to herself. Even when.all she sees is snow and Snow.

Oh, and no, Stannis on the show doesn't have my respect after burning his daughter. He'believies Mel out of ego and he's now desperate. He is literally sacrificing his family to his ego.

[pailhead]

A man who can burn his own daughter in order to save humanity from ice necromancers definitely deserves respect.

[TheReal_Rebel]

A man who can burn his own daughter in order to save humanity from ice necromancers definitely deserves respect.

Not when he isn't absolutely certain it will actually save humanity.

Oh, and there is this from the first Jon chapter in ADWD

The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

[StormRhage]

Perfectly said...

I'm still good with book Stannis, show Stannis I'll just continue to be indifferent because he's a totally different character than in the books.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

I'm house baratheon to the end, they die and i "die" too... in the sense that i won´t be rooting for anyone... and start whatching the show as a zero craps viewer, which is actually good for your mental health

There's still gendry rowing, but i suspect he is out of the map already, he might have reached the Atlantic ocean by now