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Does Stannis still have your respect?


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Book Stannis? I 'm fine with him.Last we hear of him he tells his most trusted knight to avenge his death ( if he dies that is) and do everything it takes to put Shireen on the Iron Throne.He's the man who endured the siege of Storm's End eating rats, book glue soup and boiled leather.The man who while facing the deadly winter says "There will be no burnings.Pray harder."



Show Stannis? Who burned his ONLY heir because some 20 men burnt some supplies and killed some horses? Nope.I don't think there is a way I can garner any sympathy for him.

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"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"


"Well, he just set fire to a whole bunch of your shit."


"Goddamn. Someone go fetch my daughter. And some matches."


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Book Stannis? I 'm fine with him.Last we hear of him he tells his most trusted knight to avenge his death ( if he dies that is) and do everything it takes to put Shireen on the Iron Throne.He's the man who endured the siege of Storm's End eating rats, book glue soup and boiled leather.The man who while facing the deadly winter says "There will be no burnings.Pray harder."

Show Stannis? Who burned his ONLY heir because some 20 men burnt some supplies and killed some horses? Nope.I don't think there is a way I can garner any sympathy for him.

Stannis is not that different from the books to the show. Book Stannis still cut off the ends of Ser Davos fingers after Davos saved his life. Sure you could argue it was just however it certainly was not compassionate. Book Stannis was prepared to burn his nephew. Book Stannis allowed Melisandre to make a fool out of the Maester that basically raised him. The only reason he did not allow more burning's is because he didn't feel like they were working.

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Stannis is not that different from the books to the show. Book Stannis still cut off the ends of Ser Davos fingers after Davos saved his life. Sure you could argue it was just however it certainly was not compassionate. Book Stannis was prepared to burn his nephew. Book Stannis allowed Melisandre to make a fool out of the Maester that basically raised him. The only reason he did not allow more burning's is because he didn't feel like they were working.

Book!Stannis cut off Davos' fingers because he is an absolutist when it comes to the laws of the realm. Renly had to die because he was breaking the laws of succession. Gendry was a bastard with no claim to the throne. Shireen, on the other hand, broke no laws. She was as innocent as they get. Show!Stannis killing Shireen makes nonsense out of Stannis' established adherence to the laws of the realm. It is (1) killing an innocent, and (2) kinslaying.

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Nope.



Team Dragonstone has always been kind of annoying side-story for me. It was obvious from the beginning that Stannis was never going to be Azor Ahai or end up playing a major role in the ending. I dislike him both in the books and show. I hope he dies in the finale. Good riddance.


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George has not written the scene yet. That means it is happening in late AWOW or ADOS.

It would be a completely different scenario. As linda said, something as big as the wall falling since the point of the story when it will happen, and an uttery conclussion that D&D just raped the character.

The problem is not the burning. Is doing it to make weather change at the first sight of a problem.

"If I start to comment on what might or might not happen in scenes that I have not written yet, I will be spoiling my own books".

As joncon said, the guy is pissed

http://uproxx.com/tv/2015/06/george-rr-martin-showrunner-war/3/

George RR Martin doesn't know why you care about spoilers.

Martin doesn't care about D&D's comments as much as you think he does.

He's not pissed. He doesn't care. He doesn't care about us or D&D. It just doesn't matter to him. :lol:

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I thought you were of the group that thinks Stannis is lying about his faith in AA and R'hllor and using Mel for his own ends. My bad.

(That's a good post for anyone that does.)

Not fanboying but I do think you're being a bit disinenguous. It's extremely hard to compliment Stannis because whenever he does good - say, for example, smashing Mance at the Wall - he does something backwards and annoying - like threatening to attack the Wall for castles, making the wildlings burn their gods and accept his or die, being a prick to Jon and the NW bros at every turn. It's baffling. It's like hey, man, you did some good, let me like you.

So when you read a Stannis fan's post it's like "...saved the Wall... Marching to Boltons... Defeated Renly..." It's a tad annoying. Strip it down like that, dude sounds pretty awesome. But imagine if I listed Dany's accomplishments and heroic motives and all the great stuff she might do but not everything else.

Gotcha, no I tend to believe Stannis is accepting the role partly because he wants to be a big hero (which I wont hold against anyone, we all want to be heroes) and partly because, as the author states, he does accept that there is a big problem north of the Wall and he is equipping himself and the realm to deal with it. He hasn't gone full blown R'hlorr just yet and he makes concessions because he is stubborn and pragmatic, he tries to do what works best for him and his endgame, which is the Iron Throne and dealing with the White Walkers. If he is playing it as a farce, I will lose respect for him.

No I totally agree with you, Stannis is very hard to like, as I said in my first post, and I even made a thread about it, Stannis lets the Wildlings through the Wall which should be a great moment, and then he ruins it by saying "convert or die!" and I too get tired of the people who play up the quotes from the books that help their points and ignore the others, on both sides.

As I said, I don't like him, but I do very much respect him and like the way he goes about business in the Theon sample chapter, and I still have a hard time believing he'd burn his daughter but think there is an outside chance (the Others on the doorstep and through the Wall, not because of a bit of bad weather). And I find him a fascinating character precisely because of the things you mention. Just so you know where I am coming from :)

The NW had just enured several major events. The Fist, the Mutiny, and Mance's attack. While all that was going on Stannis sat on Dragonstone ignoring their plea for help. When he finally shows up, he does his part and that's great, but Stannis now sees he has subjects to rule over and bully. As soon as he gains power, he becomes even more unbearable than he already is. He didnt need a Lord Commander at that exact moment. Imagine if his meddling put Janos Slynt in power?

I don't like using the term "whitewash" this post was tempting. Come on. Thank the 7 for Davos.

Nope, no Whitewashing, honestly. Stannis' actions toward the Nights Watch are the only ones in the series I totally agree with. I understand that they'd had a hard time, but those castles needed garrisoning, and Stannis had the men, the needed a Lord Commander so Stannis could negotiate settling Wildling's on the Gift, among other things, but they were sitting there going "but mah traditions!" I dislike a lot of what he's done in the past, and his absolutism with the Wildlings (the religion thing, demanding they accept him as King is a-okay by me, since he beat their last King) but I think he's totally right in what he's doing with the Nights Watch, even if he is bullying them a bit. They need it.

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I have some respect Stannis in the book, especially his accomplishments prior to getting involved with Mel, but believe he is an entitled elitist who has been making increasingly poor decisions leading him down a dark path since first getting involved with her



I was beginning to respect Stannis in the series, as it looked like he might be coming close to finally shaking off Mel and his ambition for the Iron Throne and instead working to truly help the situation in the North, but his character's Tragic Flaws ended up getting the best of him.



The way he could have earned my respect, and the way that he could have been a true Hero would have been as follows.



Now trapped in the snow due to his stubborn refusal to listen to his best adviser and turn back, Stannis sacrifices himself, using the power of his blood to lift the weather and allow his army to return to the Wall to become members of the Nights Watch. He sends a final raven to Kings Landing explaining what he has done and asking for additional resources to be sent to the wall.



That's what it means to be a hero. You sacrifice YOURSELF for the betterment of the world. That's how you have songs sung about you for a thousand years.



Instead, he sacrificed an innocent child when he had another choice. That is an unforgivable evil act. Even if it wins him temporary victory, it will continue to lead him down the dark path he is on. Even if he is the one who destroys the WW in the end, it means that he is so corrupted by his own evil that he will become the evil force that others will have to fight against.



Stannis had his moment to turn from the dark path he is on and failed.


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I have some respect Stannis in the book, especially his accomplishments prior to getting involved with Mel, but believe he is an entitled elitist who has been making increasingly poor decisions leading him down a dark path since first getting involved with her

The entitled elitist who made Davos Seaworth his Hand. Former smuggler of Flea Bottom and all?

The way he could have earned my respect, and the way that he could have been a true Hero would have been as follows.

Now trapped in the snow due to his stubborn refusal to listen to his best adviser and turn back, Stannis sacrifices himself, using the power of his blood to lift the weather and allow his army to return to the Wall to become members of the Nights Watch. He sends a final raven to Kings Landing explaining what he has done and asking for additional resources to be sent to the wall.

That's what it means to be a hero. You sacrifice YOURSELF for the betterment of the world. That's how you have songs sung about you for a thousand years.

If your standards are Jesus versus Everyone Else, maybe. For the rest of us who don't have Borderline Personality Syndrome, the majority of people for whom ASOIAF is written, we are interesting in heroism without the vanity of martyrdom, something which GRRM especially deconstructed with Ned Stark. A genuinely heroic man whose good action of sparing children ultimately goes unrewarded and provides not a single social benefit.

ASOIAF is interested in a different kind of heroism. The kind that could perhaps involve doing something that ensures that the songs and stories talk about what an evil man you are even if their existence comes from the fact that evil act played a decisive role in the future of mankind. That's what ASOIAF is about, no safety nets whatsoever, deal with it.

Instead, he sacrificed an innocent child when he had another choice.

What was his other choice? Join the Night's Watch, that will not help anybody whatsoever, but yes it will be one of those vainglorious acts of empty chivalry that might impress people but be of use to precisely nobody.

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What was his other choice? Join the Night's Watch, that will not help anybody whatsoever, but yes it will be one of those vainglorious acts of empty chivalry that might impress people but be of use to precisely nobody.

His other choice was to sacrifice himself if kingsblood was needed.

How can you be so sure that if Stannis sacrificed himself and gave his army to the Night's Watch, that wouldn't have been enough to stop the WW advancement? With 5,000+ men to guard the castles along the wall, perhaps that would have stopped it. Perhaps that's what he was supposed to do. What if that was the way he was supposed to be the savior of the world?

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His other choice was to sacrifice himself if kingsblood was needed.

And who will command the army, who is the other competent general at hand?

How can you be so sure that if Stannis sacrificed himself and gave his army to the Night's Watch, that wouldn't have been enough to stop the WW advancement? With 5,000+ men to guard the castles along the wall, perhaps that would have stopped it. Perhaps that's what he was supposed to do. What if that was the way he was supposed to be the savior of the world?

Because the White Walkers can't be stopped with men alone. They need the entire realm prepared and ready. They need the Citadel to do research on the White Walkers. They need the Realm to stop all its present wars and focus on storing up food and resources for the Winter, they need supply lines to send food and weapons and other stuff to the Wall and other areas that can be affected, they need proper recruits too, knights, maesters, healers, carpenters...you know the stuff that goes to building an actual professional army not the army of rapists and rejects that the NW currently have. And if the Wildlings are going to be patriated in Westeros, they need a sympathetic King to make that happen, the one who will force the North to make nice with the Wildlings, give them land and all.

None of that is possible in a Seven Kingdoms plagued by warfare and internecine warfare. They need a single realm and unified government. The Night's Watch take no part in the politics of the 7 Kingdoms, if Stannis joins the Night's Watch he can't play a political role anymore. He is far more useful to them as a King.

If you need to be told this, then you are not a good reader of the books and a good watcher of the TV show.

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Because the White Walkers can't be stopped with men alone. They need the entire realm prepared and ready.

If you need to be told this, then you are not a good reader of the books and a good watcher of the TV show.

I see a lot of assumptions in your arguments (the same assumptions Stannis is making), but I don't see much proof. How do you know Stannis' force, added to the NW, wouldn't be enough to defend the wall. We saw 100 rapists and rejects defend the wall against 10,000 battle hardened warriors, isn't it reasonable that 5,000 professional soldiers might be quite effective under Jon Snow's command?

And with Stannis out of the competition for the Iron Throne (either by joining the NW or by sacrificing himself instead) how can you be sure that KL wouldn't have provided supplies and aid to the NW? The civil war would officially be over at that point, and they could instead focus on storing up food and resources while providing supply lines of food and dragon glass to the wall. With Stannis still in the picture, KL has to focus on defending against him instead of the real threat.

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I see a lot of assumptions in your arguments (the same assumptions Stannis is making), but I don't see much proof. How do you know Stannis' force, added to the NW, wouldn't be enough to defend the wall. We saw 100 rapists and rejects defend the wall against 10,000 battle hardened warriors, isn't it reasonable that 5,000 professional soldiers might be quite effective under Jon Snow's command?

And with Stannis out of the competition for the Iron Throne (either by joining the NW or by sacrificing himself instead) how can you be sure that KL wouldn't have provided supplies and aid to the NW? The civil war would officially be over at that point, and they could instead focus on storing up food and resources while providing supply lines of food and dragon glass to the wall. With Stannis still in the picture, KL has to focus on defending against him instead of the real threat.

King's Landing a.k.a. the Lannister-occupied capital that treats the North like a joke, regards the NW as an obsolete organization and regards White Walkers as a fairy tale? When Maester Aemon sent the letter at the end of Season 3, Stannis was the only one who responded. Nobody else did. Why change now? And the Boltons...do you think they would tolerate wildlings settling in the North?

My assumptions are based on what the show has depicted about the society and the situation the Watch is in. Yours are based on some presumed enlightened benevolence on the part of the Lannisters and the Boltons.

And also if you think 50,000 plus men at the Wall will keep White Walkers away then you probably didn't see Hardhome.

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His other choice was to sacrifice himself if kingsblood was needed.




He would've been better off following Davos' advice. Or ask the advice of the smartest female historian in westeros who may have come across a similar scenario in history and given him an idea of other options. Ultimately the best thing he could've done was to follow precedent and allow his younger brother to reign, but he chose the blood sorcery and shadowbinding kinslaying route. He should've burned Mel next to his hanging guards, some of whom might have been Innocent completely. Stannis is like a blender, turning various populations into puree. Everyone around him always winds up suffering. Meh, Dany's coming to Jon with dragons eventually and nobody likes Stannis anyway. It is known.



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King's Landing a.k.a. the Lannister-occupied capital that treats the North like a joke, regards the NW as an obsolete organization and regards White Walkers as a fairy tale? When Maester Aemon sent the letter at the end of Season 3, Stannis was the only one who responded. Nobody else did. Why change now? And the Boltons...do you think they would tolerate wildlings settling in the North?

My assumptions are based on what the show has depicted about the society and the situation the Watch is in. Yours are based on some presumed enlightened benevolence on the part of the Lannisters and the Boltons.

And also if you think 50,000 plus men at the Wall will keep White Walkers away then you probably didn't see Hardhome.

Yes, Stannis responded and the immediately abandoned them to fend for themselves while he chased his white whale, the Iron Throne.

What changed is with Stannis relinquishing his claim to the throne, the civil war would be officially over.

A WW threat in the north would be a great way for the Lannisters and Boltons to consolidate power once they no longer have to worry about threats to their reigns. Give the people a big scary threat to account for the increase in taxes needed to pay back the Iron Bank.

Yep, saw hardhome. The Wall was built with the express purpose of defending against a WW invasion. It's major problem now is it's castles are undermanned. Stannis army would have been able to defend the entire length. Instead, the WW will now likely get past the wall and invade the south.

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